From popmail Thu Feb 26 10:01:22 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Business Discussion Group To: cobrien@access.digex.net (Cary B. O'Brien) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:29:37 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > > Say I have one financial app, > > and it is transfering money to another finacial app. Since its really > > money, I really need to to really be reliably, securely, authenticatedly, > > non-repudaiatedly delivered. > This is exactly what Tuxedo does. It supports multi-machine > (nested?) transactions with (if you code everything right) roll-back. > Plus reliable queuing. Hmm, I thought I read that tuxedo used MQSeries for the queueing. > As near as I can tell it runs on a stock Unix system and uses > SysV IPC and normal networking to do all this. No kernel stuff > beyond this seems to be required. Yeah, don't think any kernel stuff is required, other than some guarentee that stuff has been flushed to disk in case of pwoer outage. > begin > credit account a > debit account b > commit or rollback > > You'd need a big central machine, though. Well that's the point: The typical use is to transfer money to account a at bank a on sql server a in city a, from account b bank b in city b ... centralization is fundamentally impossible, that's why the queueing is needed. (The other point was that eliable queueing from a to b is boring until we first have a reliable a and b, which we now seem to have). This is needed also for airline seats, stocks, commodities, etc. and to a lesser degree, for any movement of goods from one store to another. Although absolute reliability may be less crucial for cans of soup, it still would be nice if the price was right... --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 10:02:12 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation To: intersoft@onyx.kachinatech.com (Geoff Marshall) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 02:14:51 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Geoff Marshall said: > > The small enterprises have even less reason to experiment with free software. > I'm a biz oriented person with some windows programming knowledge, planning to start an Internet business. I've spent the last 2 or 3 weeks looking at 'free' software and reading the arguments on various mailing lists. Having also been through the horrendous process of trying to set up free BSD and Linux (on a basic, very ordinary PC) I've reached the conclusion that the cost of running and supporting this stuff far outweighs the apparent saving provided by 'free' software. Well, you *should* figure out your costs, first. As a internet business you'll need firwalls, dns, mail servers, web servers, encryption (e.g. skip), maybe a database, version control tools, never mind compilers and all the dat-to-day stuff. By the time you deck out one single NT machine with that software, you' have dropped a few grand into microsoft, and then another 28 grand into the hands of the various vendors of the add-on s/w that microsoft doesn't sell. If you have 2-3 servers, plus another 5-10 development machines, you'll be staring at a bill on the order of $100-$200K for an NT solution, vs. $40K-$80K for a linux solution. The savings is substantial. ------- And I can't help sniping ... Have you ever used NT? I've had to start using it again recently, and, gosh, its such a mickey-mouse system. All those gui tools that get 90% of the job done, and make the remaining 10% take up the remaining 90% of your time. After a several years of abstinence, I am rather shocked by how primitive it is. I really thought that with all the fuss about NT, that I'd come back to it and see this strong, enterprise contender that's pushing unix out of the market. Frankly, I am appalled. What happened? This is what all the fuss is about? Lets get a reality check here, folks. Linux has blown NT out of the water. Shows over. ---linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 13:01:32 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:19:29 +0200 (SAT) From: Evan Summers To: Ben Woodard cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Java MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > current form is capable enough to replace the X and X based > applications. The Java Evangilists that I have run into all seem to > believe that everybody should write everything in java and believe me You are comparing Java to X. Compare apples to apples, eg. Java to C/C++. Java is a language. I did allude to the fact that JDK 1.2 includes GUI components, ie. it's own widget set written in Java. Similarly one gets widget sets developed in other languages. Now X is a (network-tranparent) windowing system. I was suggesting that we should develop a native Linux windowing system on GGI, which in the first instance one could use as a GUI console for Java applications, in which case you wouldn't need even code a widget set, since JDK has that. This is would be a "replacement" to X/Motif, certainly for Java applications, eg. full-screen HotJava or upcoming NetscapeJava in the first instance. What I'm saying is that would be a short-cut to getting an optimised platform (native GGI et al rather than the overhead of X and Motif) and GUI for business applications, where Java is the language of choice. And what's involved? Actually very little -- it's just a matter of implementing _basic_ windowing system on GGI, integrating TTF font support courtesy of Freetype, plus Sun's JDK. I can't see how that would take more than six months, with a few hackers rolling their sleeves up. You wouldn't need to worry about networking issues in the windowing system, because Java is (and Linux clients should be) all about client/server rather than host-based. It would also make Linux (rather than JavaOS, Microsoft CE, etcetera), the OS of choice for thin clients, ie. the desktops in the enterprise, and also the perfect platform with fatter clients/desktops in the enterprise, being lean and mean, without X and Motif, and optimised for Java, which if you hadn't noticed is the only alternative to Microsoft as far as corporates are concerned. Besides all the ready made applications in Java (HotJava, Netscape, eSuite, and the thousands more as more and more developers shift to Java in their thousands), open-source developers have the pleasure of developing in Java for their Linux systems, eg. a desktop and accessory suite like KDE, where that software can be used on all platforms. That will make the lines between Win95 and Linux clients blurr, in which case enterprises will flock to Linux's Java desktop to enjoy increased stability, and no licenses. This is the fastest way (and only way really) I can see Linux achieving World Domination of the Desktop, leaving Microsoft in it's wake. > The second problem is that Java remains under the control of Sun and > it is very buggy. I don't know how many times I had to work around > bugs in awt. So I think it will be a while before we are able to run > Java effectivly on our desktop. I repeat that Java as such is a language. Are you saying that Sun's Java compiler is buggy, or Sun's JVM, or the AWT, or all of them? What about gauvac compiler or kaffe JVM? And Netscape isn't buggy? Win95, solid as a rock? The point is that Java tools (eg. Sun's JDK) are maturing/stabilising very quickly now. Bugs can be fixed -- that's what they're there for! If Sun's JDK has bugs, that's because it is quite young, not because Java as a language is flawed, or the design of JFC is flawed. Kind regards Evan ___________________________Evan Summers PhD * telephone +27 11 339-6111 _________________Symphony Research * Linux & Networks * http://sr.co.za _______________________Johannesburg, South Africa * A UCS Group Company ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 13:05:59 1998 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:21:04 +0100 To: Geoff Marshall , "'linux-biz@lege.com'" From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com At 12:02 1998-02-25 -0500, Geoff Marshall wrote: >Regretably I'll probably end up making Mr Gates a bit richer and buy NT, >but that's much cheaper than climbing the Linux learning curve. If you thought that learning ANY operating system well enough to make it fundamental for your business would be cheaper than a single NT licence, I guess you've learned something. If you choose NT I think you'll eventually learn that even costly operating systems take time to learn properly... I wouldn't say that the learning curve is steeper for Linux, I'd say that the steep part comes in the beginning, and for NT it start out flatter and then gets steeper as you try more tricky things. For the non-techie user who don't have a unix expert at his hands, and who will get along with fundamental functionality, NT might actually be a better choise, but I think it will turn out much more expensive than Linux if the requirements go beyond what is provided with the simple point and click interfaces. I tend to describe Novell Netware as a shoe-box (good for storing things in but that's about it), Windows NT as a Swiss Army Knife, and Unix as a proper tool box. Sure, the shiny knife with all those fold out tools, that fits right in your pocket is more impressive than the oily old-fashioned tool box, and if you're just going to pick your nails, the tool box is overkill. On the other hand, if you want to repair your car, or repair your house, you won't be very efficient with your swiss army knife. It might take some time to learn the ways in such a huge tool box as unix, but you'll be able to make plenty with a small fraction of the tools, and it's really nice to have the major power tools available when you need them. Previosly, people have mentioned the advantage of being able to telnet into a computer and do remote administration, and the horror of mucking with the registries. There are also some other important factors with linux/unix: * A simple linux CD contains all you might ever dream of needing for your system administration tasks etc, and much more. It would take you weeks just to gather and install the corresponding tools for another OS. In linux they are all there. You don't have to run around to get hold of Perl, Python, Apache or whatever you might need. * Maturity / stability. Those who learned to edit filed in vi ten years ago know exactly how to do search-and-replace, write macros, etc in a unix editor today. Those who learn vi today will happily use vi in ten or twenty years from now. The same is true for many things in unix. Also, if you know how to sort a text file in unix (type 'sort filename', how hard can that be) you also know how to do it in vi, since you just invoke the OS command from within the editor. With Microsoft you'll have to relearn for each tool, and then again every second year or so. It's as if cars would change locations of pedals etc from year to year... Why relearn how to operate reinvented tools, when you can spend your time doing something productive? * While all the Windows models (whether they are called servers or not) are geared towards 'pleasing' one interactive user, unix has always been good at handling many users and non-interactive use. If you manage to get over the initial, steep learning curve of linux, you will easily write little scripts to do things like reporting through email each night whether some- one exceeds their disk quota, or process some other kinds of logs into the format you want and put them on the web server so you can inspect them in your web browser, or automatically make backups via ftp to some remote part of the world in case you run out of tapes. I've worked with Windows for many years, and I still haven't figured out how to do the things that I learned in a few weeks (or possibly months) with unix. - How do I get an arbitrary Windows program to report it's result through email? How do I automate more advanced tasks than backups (almost all programs require interactive response)? Take a simple example: I want to get a listing of all files larger than 100 MB that weren't there the day before to be presented to me each morning so I can see if someone is swamping the disk. (This is just a tiny example of course, I could also inspect total size of all files belonging to a certain user.) In unix this is a one line script with find invoked with proper flags, and the output piped to mail, and I'll get a report in my postbox each morning if I just execute the script nightly from crontab. I can't imagine how to make this in NT without writing or buying a specific program for this purpose. Even if the prorgam would be for free I could write the script much faster than I could install the Windows program, and the script I wrote is probably more flexible and adaptable for other types of use. If you don't want to learn technical things, you just want it to work, I think you will need assistance from someone else regardless of what OS you use. As I said, you might get along by yourself with Windows for simple uses, but if your needs are more advanced I think unix will be much cheeper in the long run. Remote administration, maturity and stability are all factors in favour of unix/linux. Magnus -- Magnus Lycka, S/W Engineer, M.Sc.E.E; Folktrov. 6C, 907 51 Umea, Sweden Tel: +46(0)90 198 498, GSM: +46(0)70 582 80 65, Fax: +46(0)70 612 80 65 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 18:11:08 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:03:39 +0100 From: Cyril Chaboisseau X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Dillon CC: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Will Linux fade away too? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Michael Dillon wrote: > Imagine a press release from Redhat that says something like this: > > Since our RedHat Linux has already been ported to the 64-bit Alpha > architecture, we anticipate few problems in preparing a Merced port > as soon as Intel makes the chips available. With the growing > popularity of Linux in the enterprise RedHat Linux will be well > in this market by the time Merced-based machines become available > ad we anticipate that this will lead to Linux capturing 30% or more of > this market. in the following years, we might see those kind of press release ;-) : ------>%--------->%--------->%--------->%--------->%--------->%--- For immediate release - --------------------- Redmond, Wash., Jan. 7th, 2007 -- Linux under scrutiny from the US DoJ The United States Department of Justice (US DoJ) has recently announced its intention to carry out an inquiry regarding the monopoly of Linux (NASDAQ: LNUX) and Linux-like systems on the market of computer operating systems. According to several analysts who expressed their wish to remain anonymous, Linux has become a de-facto standard by allegedly using illegal commerce practices: - free availability of the Linux system and of its derivatives (AIX, Solaris, DG-UX, BSD/OS, ...) - under-the-table price agreements ("free") - use of unpaid volunteers Usage of the Internet to promote this dominance is highly suspected, and could be considered as added prosecution material. This inquiry was initiated following a class-action lawsuit from several small software editors (Microsoft, Oracle, Netscape, IBM) -- these companies believe their business activities are compromised by these illegal practices. Most of the above-mentioned plaintiffs have regrouped under the banner "Windows NT10.0" to offer "...solutions of superior quality, reliability and performance." On a side note, Windows NT (WNT) now ships with its complete sources in human-readable form, which is not the case with recent versions of Linux. Invented by Microsoft, this is now a proven way to develop quality software. Endorsement of this concept by Microsoft is stronger than ever, as shown by their now ubiquitous sticker "100% Pure Sources Inside" (TM). - -- [Written by Pierre Beyssac , translated by Pierre and Philippe Regnauld .] ------>%--------->%--------->%--------->%--------->%--------->%--- 'just for fun !!! -- Cyril Chaboisseau mailto:Cyril.Chaboisseau@Obs.CoE.int ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 21:01:28 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:11:12 -0800 From: "Donald B. Marti Jr." To: linas@linas.org Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 02:14:51AM -0600, linas@linas.org wrote: > And I can't help sniping ... Have you ever used NT? I've had to start > using it again recently, and, gosh, its such a mickey-mouse system. Mickey Mouse (R) is a registered trademark of Walt Disney Corporation. I am not a lawyer, but usage of this protected intellectual property in connection with Windows NT may be grounds for a lawsuit. There's one other business model not listed in Eric's list of ways to make money with Open Source software: publishing. Give the software away and sell the books. It seems to work for Larry Wall and O'Reilly. You could also do a magazine that comes with a CD of up-to-date GPL software and contains articles about how to use it. With a good install program, it would be a painless way for regular users to keep their system up-to-date. The magazine content would be GPL on the web after publication, but you could also sell it as books and "best of" CDs. A decent-sized subscriber base and good ad sales would make it cheaper for people to subscribe than to make "bootleg" copies. This might be a way to get creative spreadsheet macro programmers, writers, and graphic designers off proprietary software and into the free software movement. (Somehow I seem to be saying "Open Source" when I'm talking about a business model, and "free software" when I'm talking about winning people's hearts and minds.) -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 21:04:41 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:42:23 -0800 From: Bradley Willson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux Users List , Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Hello, Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages using a web browser as the front end? I can see such a thing in an enterprise where networking would benefit from exploitation. I don't recall seeing this approach explored on these lists, or anywhere else for that matter. It's just an idea... -- Best Regards, Bradley J. Willson http://www.ifixcomputers.com Willson Consulting Services mailto://cpu@ifixcomputers.com Seattle, WA 98146-1724 Tel: 206-439-1164 Microsoft(tm)...1 Billionaire Served. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 23:01:06 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:26:33 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Hello, > > Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages > using a web browser as the front end? I can see such a thing in an > enterprise where networking would benefit from exploitation. > I sure hope so, because that's what we are doing in several places. The thin client greatly simplifies managing client software -- you just need to install netscape! At this moment we are running a demo of a service at several sites on both coasts. All we needed was to tell the salesmen to go to the customer sites and point their browsers at http://nn.nn.nn.nn and away they go. We're re-working internal system admin tasks the same way. Just make sure you think through security and authentication. Extra Credit: Anyone know of an X plugin for netscape? It would turn netscape into an x-server. Or a java implementation of X? (which would amount to roughly the same thing). -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 23:01:09 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:29:25 -0600 (CST) From: "Eric L. Green " To: Bradley Willson cc: Linux Business List Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Bradley Willson wrote: > Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages > using a web browser as the front end? I can see such a thing in an > enterprise where networking would benefit from exploitation. Yes indeed. I have investigated doing a web front-end for our educational administration system for one simple reason: installing client software on networked user workstations is a major manpower drain on our resources. Every computer nowdays comes with a pre-configured web browser. Why should I have to send a technician out there to install and configure client software on Win95 machines when I can just have the customer point his browser at our server? Of course, my general goal is to reduce my workload as much as possible :-). Babysitting technicians in the field as they install client software is NOT what I want to spend time doing. Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants Systems Specialist Educational Administration Solutions "We believe Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 23:01:19 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:25:01 -0600 (CST) From: "Eric L. Green " To: "Donald B. Marti Jr." cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Donald B. Marti Jr. wrote: > make money with Open Source software: publishing. Give the software > away and sell the books. It seems to work for Larry Wall and > O'Reilly. Actually, a better (or worse) model would be TeX or LaTeX. Leslie Lamport's book on LaTeX was for years the only reference text on LaTeX and a quite pricey one at that. There is no on-line documentation bundled with LaTeX as far as I can tell, unlike the extensive (like, 4-inch stack of laser-printed pages) on-line documentation that comes with Perl5. You can program Perl using only the on-line documentation. If you're dedicated you can even learn Perl from the on-line documentation, although it's painful since there's no index or table of contents. I wrote my first Perl program before I got the Camel book that way. Of course, that was back when the blue Camel book was the current one too, and today's Perl is a bit, err, bigger :-{. (Hey, the stack of printed on-line documentation was only one inch back then!). Personally, I consider software such as TeX for which adequate on-line documentation does not exist to be 'crippleware', no different from all the crippled 'shareware' programs that afflict the Windows world. If it weren't for the status of Donald Knuth in the academic world I doubt that anybody would have bothered looking at TeX, 'free' or not. In short: I don't think you can call it "open source software" unless you have at least the Perl level of available on-line documentation. Without that, nobody has any inclination to use the beast since they have to go buy a book to get even a hint of how to use it. With Perl, the rather dense on-line documentation is a good advertisement for the available books, yet is accessible enough to let you know that "hey, I want to learn more of this". BTW, I think that's the biggest downfall of Red Hat Software as a software development house -- they do *NOT* document the programs they write. In the case of things like the 'newt' library we are talking about a set of character-based windowing routines that many would find useful -- if there were any documentation at all on it. Similarly, their network configurator etc. do NOT have a "Help" menu or button on them... Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants Systems Specialist Educational Administration Solutions "We believe Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 23:03:14 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:17:06 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Bradley Willson cc: Linux Users List , Linux Business List Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Bradley Willson wrote: > Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages > using a web browser as the front end? I can see such a thing in an > enterprise where networking would benefit from exploitation. > > I don't recall seeing this approach explored on these lists, or > anywhere else for that matter. It's just an idea... It is something we have explored on the FreeMoney mailing list. Several members of the list are giving it priority. FreeMoney is a general purpose business accounting system being developed under the GPL. http://www.aaronsrod.com/freemoney/ will tell you more about FreeMoney. Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 23:03:18 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:57:08 -0800 From: Bradley Willson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Netscape from another angle X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com While the best article is not online, there are several perspectives on Netscape's moves. http://techweb.cmp.com/vb/MAIN/ The article I alluded to speaks of LInux in a positive way, and even explains the "free" in freeware as not monetary but freely distributable. -- Best Regards, Bradley J. Willson http://www.ifixcomputers.com Willson Consulting Services mailto://cpu@ifixcomputers.com Seattle, WA 98146-1724 Tel: 206-439-1164 Microsoft(tm)...1 Billionaire Served. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 02:40:34 1998 From: Bobnhlinux Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:26:17 EST To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Eric Raymond's latest Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com In a message dated 98-02-25 09:54:08 EST, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > > > --snip-- > > -- The IT bosses of six counties, two water districts, and one utility > > district need a new land-use, appraisal, building-permit, lien and > > right-of-way database infrastructure. They build one in-house because > > when Oracle bid on it, the price was too high. > > Possible, but unlikely. Many customers of packages like this tend to rely > on the software suppliers for updates (many such end-users have only > runtime versions of the DB engines). As a result, there isn't much skilled > programming talent available in-house. Even larger shops with their own IS > staff tend to center their programming efforts on custom reports rather > than the basic logic of the program. > --more snip-- There is at least one consortium doing this (but not GPLed). They consist of medical schools, state mental hospitals, etc. The consortium hires programmers, provides documentation, etc. As I understand it, they don't release it to the general public, because then they wouldn't get the membership fees. I am trying to find out if they use Linux (they do use Unix). Bob Sparks Linux is better because it's better, not because it's "free". ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 02:47:13 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:13:37 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Control an NT box from Xwindows (fwd) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:43:22 -0500 From: James Ervin Reply-To: inet-access@earth.com To: inet-access@earth.com Subject: Control an NT box from Xwindows Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:44:46 -0700 (MST) Resent-From: inet-access@earth.com Just wanted to mention an app that saved me a few headaches: VCN byOlivetti-Oracle Laboratory (http://www.orl.co.uk/); You can take over the desktop of an NT/95/Xwindows system from any NT/95/Xwindows system. It is small, portable and can be run as a java app through a web browser. Now I can sit at my linux box and check/restart/re-boot the NT boxes in the system. Sort of like PCAnywhere, but can be run through the web and through Xwindows. It is also under the GPL, so it is free. James Ervin City of Bedford Network Administration admin@ci.bedford.va.us (540)586-7156 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 06:00:59 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: cobrien@access.digex.net (Cary B. O'Brien) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:07:44 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Hi, It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > > > Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages > > using a web browser as the front end? Yes. > I sure hope so, because that's what we are doing in several places. > The thin client greatly simplifies managing client software -- you > just need to install netscape! I built one of these, see http://teleportal.com, http://siliconhillstravel.com, http://intransco.com http://ontheflytravel.com for working examples. Its for a travel res system. One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from very begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back end. You won't understand what I'm saying until you actually get to version 2 of your stuff, so take it on faith: the browser-as-client can be way-too-thin at times. I'm tired of writing email, but if you pressure me, I can explain the claims above, and provide tips about design decisions that turn out to be important later. --linas > Extra Credit: > > Anyone know of an X plugin for netscape? It would turn netscape into > an x-server. Its called "broadway", and the x consortium (now the open group??) is working on it. Should be in beta, at least, don't know if it runs on linux yet. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 06:11:53 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:08:08 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: linas@linas.org cc: "Cary B. O'Brien" , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in > corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a > cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from very > begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back end. OK,, Linas, you've sold me on the idea, though I need to have a *far* better grasp on the concepts involved than I do. Does there exist a book or (preferably) a web site that offers some tutorial-level explanations of corba's concepts (especially in the context in which you're talking)? - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 06:13:11 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:29:10 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: linas@linas.org cc: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > I built one of these, see http://teleportal.com, > http://siliconhillstravel.com, http://intransco.com > http://ontheflytravel.com for working examples. Its for > a travel res system. These sites all say they are closed for 'technical maintenance'. > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end > in corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have > a cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from > very begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back > end. I was very much looking forward to seeing a web application user interface with a CORBA backend and a JAVA frontend. > You won't understand what I'm saying until you actually get to version 2 > of your stuff, so take it on faith: the browser-as-client can be > way-too-thin at times. I don't think you have to take it on faith. Just compare what you can do with a browser and what you can do inside well designed applications software running on either on X-windows or from a character-based terminal. There is no comparison. > I'm tired of writing email, but if you pressure me, I can explain > the claims above, and provide tips about design decisions that turn out > to be important later. Just tell us when the sites will be back up. Seeing is believing. Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 07:01:53 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: dwj@aaronsrod.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:32:56 -0600 (CST) Cc: linas@linas.org, linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Hi, It's been rumoured that Dwight Johnson said: > > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > > I built one of these, see http://teleportal.com, > > http://siliconhillstravel.com, http://intransco.com > > http://ontheflytravel.com for working examples. Its for > > a travel res system. > > These sites all say they are closed for 'technical maintenance'. Hmm, Indeed. I am no longer involved in day-to-day operations. I can only assume that the sysadmins are up to something, but I have to admit that this kind of an outage is highly unusual. I normally discourage stuff like this. However, we are supposed to move the mainframe connection from Austin TX to Miami FL, and I can only assume tht its not going smoothly. The move is compounded by serious financial difficulties, I like to think of the whole thing as a technical success and a business disaster. The business people behind it are way out of thier league, and my mistake was to be a part of it. You can probably buy out the business at a fire-sale price, possibly as low as 1 M . It all runs on Linux :-) > I don't think you have to take it on faith. Just compare what you > can do with a browser and what you can do inside well designed > applications software running on either on X-windows or from a > character-based terminal. There is no comparison. Yep, but for the 2x per year airline ticket purchasor, big downloads or install of any sort are out of the question. It's gotta be plain html. th fancy gui would be for travel agents, etc. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 07:05:09 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:09:41 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm (Source: Phil Hughes, SSC) dwj ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 07:05:21 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:30:02 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: linas@linas.org cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > The move is compounded by serious financial difficulties, I like > to think of the whole thing as a technical success and a business > disaster. The business people behind it are way out of thier league, > and my mistake was to be a part of it. I am sorry to hear it. > Yep, but for the 2x per year airline ticket purchasor, big downloads > or install of any sort are out of the question. It's gotta be plain > html. th fancy gui would be for travel agents, etc. But doesn't this same reasoning argue against a big java download? I remember when Deep Throat (err.. Blue :-)) was playing Kasparov, Big Blue had a java applet to replay the games. It took forever to download and then it was always bombing out! It really did nothing in my mind to advance the cause of java. Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 07:06:00 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: evan@telly.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:47:48 -0600 (CST) Cc: linas@linas.org, cobrien@access.digex.net, linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Evan Leibovitch said: > > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in > > corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a > > cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from very > > begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back end. > > OK,, Linas, you've sold me on the idea, though I need to have a *far* > better grasp on the concepts involved than I do. > > Does there exist a book or (preferably) a web site that offers some > tutorial-level explanations of corba's concepts (especially in the > context in which you're talking)? http://linas.org/linux/corba.html lists pointers to pointers. http://www.omg.org/ is the home site In short: corba allows you to make "network-transparent subroutine calls" (actually, since its OO, that would be "methods calls"). May not sound like a big deal until the day that you realize you need to have different servers and clients all talking to one another. Once you realize you need this, you are faced with: -- invent your own protocol, (traditional client-server, e.g. x11, http, telnet, ftp, mail are all roll-your-own protocols) -- use RPC's (NFS uses this, intellectual grandfather to corba) -- some web/cgi-bin thingy (super-thin client, fat server) -- sql running across tcp/ip (super-fat client, thin server) -- corba The first four don't cut it, so corbas the only choice left. Yeah, it still a low-level down-in-the guts technolgy, and it can easily become complex, fast. But it still better than the other choices. Don't know, we never got very far with the corba version, so a part of it is still a dream. But I've used all of the other techniques, so corba must be better. :-) --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 07:06:29 1998 From: linas@linas.org To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:06:01 -0600 (CST) Content-Type: text Subject: [linux-biz] Linux Enterprise (fwd) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com FYI. It's been rumoured that jean pierre laisne said: > From jplaisne@pick-systems.fr Thu Feb 26 16:42:45 1998 > Message-Id: <199802262110.WAA03804@kali.isicom.fr> > X-Sender: jplaisne@mail.pick-systems.fr > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:03:18 -0100 > To: pguillot@club-internet.fr, jeff@symphonie.fdn.fr, decibel@media-net.fr, > Bernard.LeRouzic@wanadoo.fr, mkervell@pratique.fr, > Lucien.Petit@alcove.fr, clb@alcove.fr, cesi@esi.fdn.org, > sbesnard@club-internet.fr, cerit@wanadoo.fr, manuf@planete.net, > fontain@imaginet.fr, 100060.1503@CompuServe.COM, easysoft@hol.fr, > ps@rii-diffusion.fr, adebrenne@rii-diffusion.fr, tpaumier@publicis.fr, > farzy@publicis.fr, gilles.paumier@soget.fr, xdevyl@alienor.fr, > pierre@alienor.fr, porcher.franck@spin.pf, gdixon@cromwells.co.uk, > drice@cromwells.co.uk, dmassot@cromwells.co.uk, > rberns@informationsupport.co.uk, sean@metier.co.uk, efvinfo@cmdnet.lu, > ggoeres@cmdnet.lu, ddinfo@cmdnet.lu, frelance@sarenet.es, > al_marvaso@friuldata.it, pier_butta@friuldata.it, > stefano_maran@friuldata.it, j.haederli@ibm.net, marcd@sbtech.ch, > roberts@ch.ci.garden-grove.ca.us, linas@linas.org, jab@tdata.com.au, > bryanb@ats.com.au > From: jplaisne@pick-systems.fr (jean pierre laisne) > Subject: Linux Enterprise > Cc: fermigie@math.jussieu.fr, jp@laisne.com > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Bonjour, > [Hello,] > > Sans doute avons nous deja du echanger des idees sur un de nos sujets > d'interet commun: les logiciels libres et plus particulierement Linux. > C'est dans cet esprit que je me permet de vous recontacter. > > [We have been in contact before to share thoughts about free softwares ] > [and mainly Linux. I am contacting you today for the same reason . ] > > Si vous pensez que l'informatique libre vous donne la possibilite de > mieux maitriser vos outils de production, de vous ouvrir au > developpement des nouvelles technologies dans votre entreprise, de > garantir l'independance et la perennite des solutions que vous proposez, > alors ce message vous concerne. Votre experience est vitale car elle > represente une solide reference pouvant aider au succes de > l'informatique libre et a sa propagation dans le "monde reel". > > [If you believe that free softwares offer you a better control over your ] > [production tools, a path to New Technologies for your company, insure ] > [independancy and perenity of the solutions that you provide, this message] > [is for you. Your experience is important because it represents a solid ] > [reference which can help to make free software successful and to see its ] > [propagation into "real world". ] > > Stefane Fermigier et moi-meme menons actuellement une etude sur l'impact > des logiciels libres sur l'industrie et plus precisement sur > l'entreprise. Vous trouverez un questionnaire ci-apres auquel nous > esperons que vous pourrez consacrer quelques minutes. Son but est de > recenser, quantifier et qualifier l'usage des logiciels libres dans les > entreprises sollicitees afin de pouvoir constituer une base > referencielle permettant de demontrer l'adequation de ces outils aux > besoins des entreprises. Des etudes de cas tirees de vos reponses a ce > mini sondage illustreront notre etude. Ce travail devrait aboutir, au > mieux, a la publication d'un ouvrage, au pire, il sera diffusé librement > sur differents sites Web. Nous vous garantissons que les > informations que vous voudrez bien nous transmettre ne seront pas > utilisees dans un but commercial et que toute publication vous > concernant fera l'objet d'un accord prealable. > > [These days, Stephane Fermigier and myself are studying the impact of free ] > [softwares on the industry and precisely on the enterprise. You will find ] > [a questionnaire just after this message and we hope you will be able to ] > [take few minutes to fill it. Its goal is to quantify and qualify the use of ] > [free softwares in companies so we can build a referential database showing ] > [the right match of these tools with the needs of the enterprises. We will ] > [extract out of this mini survey some study cases to illustrate this study. ] > [In best case, this will be published as a book. In worst case, it will be ] > [freely available on the web. We garanty that the informations we will get ] > [from you, won't be used commercially and any publication of these informations] > [will need your approval. ] > > Nous estimons qu'il est temps que le secteur prive participe a > la croissance de ce secteur encore meconnu des entrepreneurs. Car si > nous pensons que ces logiciels sont d'une grande utilite, il manque > encore des "success stories" dont nous avons tous besoin pour faire > connaitre et vendre nos produits et/ou nos services. C'est pourquoi nous > vous serions tres reconnaissant si vous acceptiez de consacrer quelques > minutes a cette etude qui, nous l'esperons, sera profitable a tous. > > [We think that it is time for the private side of this industry to help > ] > [this "free software" activity to grow. Because if we think that these > softwares ] > [are very useful, we still miss "success stories" which we all need to > promote ] > [and sell our productions and/or our services. That why we will be very > thanksful ] > [if you take some time to answer to this email and we will do our best to > make this] > [study profitable for everyone. > ] > > Merci de votre attention et, par avance, de votre aide. > [Thanks for your attention and help.] > > Cordialement, > [Fondly,] > > Jean-Pierre LAISNE > jplaisne@pick-systems.fr > Directeur Technique > Pick Systems Europe > > Stefane FERMIGIER > fermigie@math.jussieu.fr > Maitre de Conference > Université Paris 7 > > ======================== Questionnaire > > Informations Generales / General Informations > --------------------------------------------- > > Nom du Contact / Contact Name : > > Titre / Position : > > Adresse Email / Email Address : > > Nom de la Societe / Company Name : > > Adresse 1 / Address 1 : > > Adresse 2 / Address 2 : > > Adresse 3 / Address 3 : > > Ville / City : > > Code Postal / Zip Code : > > Pays / Country : > > Telephone / Phone : > Fax : > Adresse Web / Web Site : > > Activite(s) Principale(s) / Main Activity : > > Chiffre d'Affaire (facultatif) / Growth Figure (not mandatory) : > > Configuration : > --------------- > > Systemes d'Exploitation Utilises sur les postes Clients : > Operating System used on Client stations : > > [ ] MS Dos > [ ] Windows 3, 3.11 > [ ] Windows 95 > [ ] Windows NT WorkStation > [ ] Apple Mac 7 > [ ] Apple Mac OS9 > [ ] Xwindows > [ ] IBM OS/2 > [ ] Terminal Asynchrone / Asynchronous Terminal > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > A Preciser / Which One : > > Nombre total de postes clients / Total number of client stations : > > Systemes d'Exploitation Utilises sur les Serveurs : > Operating systems used on Servers : > [ ] IBM Mainframe > [ ] Bull Mainframe > [ ] AS400 > [ ] Unix Mini : AIX, DG/UX, HP/UX, Sinix, Solaris > [ ] Unix Intel : SCO, Unixware,Solaris86, Linux, FreeBSD > [ ] Windows NT Server > [ ] Novell Netware > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > A Preciser / Which One : > > Nombre total de serveurs / Total number of servers : > > Reseau / Network > ---------------- > > Type de reseau utilise / Type of network used : > [ ] LAN > [ ] WAN > > [ ] Serie / Serial, Asynchrone / Asynchronous > [ ] Ethernet > [ ] RTC > [ ] ISDN > [ ] FDDI > [ ] Frame Relay > [ ] ATM > > Protoocoles utilises / Protocols used : > [ ] TCP/IP > [ ] LanMAnager, NetBeui > [ ] Netware > [ ] Appletalk > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > A Preciser / Which One : > > > Logiciels Libres / Free Softwares : > ----------------------------------- > > Logiciel(s) Libre(s) Utilise(s) / Free Software(s) used : > > Description du cadre d'Utilisation / Description of usage domain : > > Benefices tires de l'Utilisation du/des Logicilel(s) Libre(s) > [Profits gained with the usage of Free Software(s)] : > > Description de l'Application Critique > [Description of the Critical Mission Application] : > > Avenir de l'Application et/ou Futur(s) Projet(s) > [Future of the Application and/or Future Project(s)] : > > Nombre de sites concernes (Adresse(s) et Reference(s) eventuelle(s)) > [Number of concerned Sites (eventually Address(es) and Reference(s))]: > > Nombre d'Utilisateurs / Number of Users : > > Support Technique / Technical Support : > --------------------------------------- > > Pour les Logiciels Libres, quelle(s) source(s) de support technique utilisez > vous ? > [For the Free Software(s), what kind of support do you get ?] > > [ ] Societe ou Consultant / Company or Consultant > Reference(s) : > > > [ ] Distributeur ou Distribution / Distributor or Distribution > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Newsgroup > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Web. > Reference(s) : > > > [ ] Documentation > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > Reference(s) : > > Formation / Training : > ---------------------- > > Comment vous etes vous forme / How were you train ? > > [ ] Autoformation / All By Yourself > Temps passe / Number of Hours spent : > > [ ] Societe ou Consultant / Company or Consultant > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Newsgroup > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Web > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > Reference(s) : > > > Linux : > ------- > Si vous utilisez Linux, veuillez preciser depuis quand : __ / __ / __ > [If you use Linux, since when ? ] __ / __ / __ > > Si vous utilisez Linux, veuillez preciser quelle distribution ? > [If you use Linux, which distribution ?] > > [ ] Slakware > [ ] Debbian > [ ] RedHat > [ ] Suse > [ ] Ygddrasil > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > Reference(s) : > > Si vous utilisez Linux, veuillez SVP noter sur 10 les points suivants : > [If you use Linux, please put a figure up to 10 to qualify the following points] > > Performance : __ / 10 > Securite / Security : __ / 10 > Fiabilite / Reliabiliy : __ / 10 > Support : __ / 10 > Documentation : __ / 10 > Installation : __ / 10 > Administration : __ / 10 > Evolutivite / Scalablity : __ / 10 > Ouverture / Open Systems : __ / 10 > Integration a l'Existant / Integration to existing system : __ / 10 > > Commentaires / Comments > ------------------------ > A votre avis, quels sont les points forts, > les points faibles de Linux ainsi que les ameliorations souhaitables ? > [In your opininion which are the qualities, weaknesses and whished > enhancements ?] > > > > Comptez vous a l'avenir, continuer a utiliser Linux ou des solutions libres ? > [In the future will you keep on using Linux or free solutions ?] > OUI/YES [ ] > NON/NO [ ] > > Si oui, de plus en plus ? > If yes, more and more ? > OUI/YES [ ] > NON/NO [ ] > > Diffusion / Publication > ----------------------- > Acceptez vous que ces informations soient rendues publiques ? > [Do you agree to make these informations public ?] > OUI/YES [ ] > NON/NO [ ] > > Acceptez vous d'etre contacte pour la suite de cette enquete ? > [Would you accept further contact for this survey ?] > OUI/YES [ ] > NON/NO [ ] > > > Si vous connaissez d'autres personnes susceptibles de repondre a ce > questionnaire, > merci de nous communiquer leur adresse e-mail. > [If you know other people that could be concerned by this questionnaire,] > [please give us their email address.] > > > > ================================================ Fin / End > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 10:01:35 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: dwj@aaronsrod.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:00:15 -0600 (CST) Cc: linas@linas.org, linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Dwight Johnson said: > > the fancy gui would be for travel agents, etc. > > But doesn't this same reasoning argue against a big java download? The travel agent would be using it 8 hours a day. it would be an install, a stand-alone java app, instead of a broswer-embedded applet, or something like that. We never worked out the details. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 10:01:57 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:16:25 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: exec@softdisk.com cc: "Donald B. Marti Jr." , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Eric L. Green wrote: > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Donald B. Marti Jr. wrote: > > Give the software > > away and sell the books. It seems to work for Larry Wall and > > O'Reilly. Only to a point; now that Perl is *really* popular, there are a lot of books out from which Wall doesn't make a cent. > Actually, a better (or worse) model would be TeX or LaTeX. Leslie > Lamport's book on LaTeX was for years the only reference text on LaTeX and > a quite pricey one at that. That was because of the funky binding :-). > There is no on-line documentation bundled with > LaTeX as far as I can tell, unlike the extensive (like, 4-inch stack of > laser-printed pages) on-line documentation that comes with Perl5. To be honest, there *are* other resources (one of which involved joining TUG, the TeX users' group). But I don't begrudge Lamport the ability to earn some royalty money; if someone wanted to do a freeware LaTeX doc there's nothing to stop them. To keep going along this continuum, there's Kermit, which does everything it can to prevent you from getting C-Kermit or DOS-Kermit without the book. Unlike LaTeX, makers of CDROM distributions are prohibited from including Kermit, and it cannot be put on BBSs or anon-FTP sites besides Columbia's own site (http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/). Why? If you surf to Columbia you get messages begging you to buy the book. It's like tuning into PBS during freakin' pledge-break week. And unlike with LaTeX, Kermit *at one time* had online documentation that was *withdrawn* in order to drive sales of the book. > Personally, I consider software such as TeX for which adequate on-line > documentation does not exist to be 'crippleware', no different from all > the crippled 'shareware' programs that afflict the Windows world. If it > weren't for the status of Donald Knuth in the academic world I doubt that > anybody would have bothered looking at TeX, 'free' or not. I disagree. Many people won't begrudge Knuth and Lamport's particular method of writing OpenSource software and still being able to pay the mortgage. (After all, one book can serve a *lot* of eyes). And, BTW, there's a significant amount of usable LaTeX docs in the Linux 'tetex' package. Still, if this scheme encourages more authors, who would not otherwise be writing OpenSource software, to do so, bring them on. > In short: I don't think you can call it "open source software" unless you > have at least the Perl level of available on-line documentation. Well, I will. Even Kermit, whose licensing limits I find thoroughly detestable, still qualifies to me as OpenSource stuff which pushes the envelope. Ditto KDE. Even at its worst, this stuff is still far preferable to "hoardware". ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan Leibovitch * Xunil Computing * Brampton, Ontario, Canada * www.xunil.com Supporting Intel-based Unix and Linux since 1985 * Caldera & SCO authorized "Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 10:05:01 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:25:23 +0000 From: Michael Morrison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.32 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Dwight Johnson wrote: > > > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm > (Source: Phil Hughes, SSC) Poor slobs have been assimilated ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 13:14:07 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:46:55 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Linux Business Discussion Group cc: "T. Alexander Popiel" , Bruce Perens X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Subject: [linux-biz] Two interesting comments to: (Brain of Stig) "Open Source"??? Bleeeeeech! X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com These posts didn't make it 'cause they were by non-subscribers, but worthwile, I feel: __________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:40:39 +0000 From: Bruce Perens To: linux-biz@lege.com, Stig HackVän Cc: Brain of Stig Subject: (Brain of Stig) "Open Source"??? Bleeeeeech! From: "Stig HackVän" > - It's too long. > - Way too vague. It's "Open Source(R)", not "Open Source Software". I despair of explaining this concept in two words, _whatever_ words I use. "Free Software" doesn't do it either, and has hurt us in some markets. > - It sounds related to OSF, which produces proprietary software. OSF is out of business. They were replaced by TOG. > What good does it do to replace it with another vague word, "open", > that has 14 adjective meanings, 13 verb meanings, and 3 noun meanings? It's a trademark. That allows us to attach a special meaning to it and make it stick. I like made-up names like "Kodak" and "Debian" because they have no other referents. However, it's much easier to sell a product with a made-up name than a concept. People have been looking at the name for years, and have never really come up with one that everyone likes, so they did _nothing_. We made an engineering decision - we picked a name and went with it rather than wait for something perfect. Thanks Bruce __________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:04:35 +0000 From: "T. Alexander Popiel" To: Stig HackV n Cc: linux-biz@lege.com, Brain of Stig , popiel@pecan.snugharbor.com Subject: (Brain of Stig) "Open Source"??? Bleeeeeech! In message: <19980223054729.16972.qmail@hackvan.com> "Stig HackV n" writes: > >I like "cooperative software" better than "open source software", because it >captures the essence of what makes our stuff different from the offerrings >of the proprietary world of "commercial software" world. I like. - Alex __________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 13:14:10 1998 Date: 27 Feb 1998 11:11:56 -0000 To: Linux in Business From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] (0xdeadbeef) Rhapsody-Linux rumor X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org Subject: Rhapsody-Linux story Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:36:39 -0500 Forwarded-by: "Zeller, Eric (NLC-EX)" From: Thomas Poff OS Consolidation at Apple: will Rhapsody and MkLinux merge? After weeks of sitting on top of the news, it finally appears that this story -- a mix of speculation, hope, and pieced-together statements made by _Apple Enterprise_ and _MkLinux_ team members - -- is safe enough for public consumption. Approximately three weeks ago, after having seen hints by MkLinux team members posted in public forums (newsgroups, web discussion boards, etc.) statements such as "The line between Rhapsody and MkLinux is blurring more every day," and "we've all been so busy working on Rhapsody," Rumors got in touch with its most trusted sources. What came back was tentative -- but revolutionary. While Rumors remains skeptical that this is for real, it is a very exciting possibility that bears fleshing out: Through the advanced capabilities of the Mach 3.0 microkernel, developers are reportedly working to replace much of the workings of _Rhapsody_'s core OS with code from MkLinux. From here, this project could go one of two ways: a Yellow Box for Mklinux, which would allow graphical Rhapsody applications to run alongside the many command-line programs available for the most popular UNIX in the world -- Linux. The second possibility, while significantly less likely, is enticing: that rather than acting as a separate OS, MkLinux and Rhapsody would become one OS, with Linux terminals and even XTerms running in Rhapsody windows and providing the new core OS for Rhapsody on both the PowerPC and Intel platforms. Over the course of several years, Apple would end up with a kernel and core OS that could be made freely available, including source code -- to entice developers - -- while keeping the graphical Yellow Box, with all its advanced capabilities, commercial....providing stable revenue for Apple. At present, the basis for this rumor is shaky; two parts speculation for each part fact. However, if this is the direction in which Apple is going, it could make big waves. To assist in ascertaining whether this is for real, or merely a developer's pipe dream funneled through the all-to-familiar "telephone" effect, we're putting out an all-cars. If you or anyone you know may have information that can help us form a clearer picture of the reality of this rumor, please take a moment to _contact Rumors_. ------- end ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:01:08 1998 From: Matthew.Rice@ftlsol.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: evan@telly.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:39:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Does there exist a book or (preferably) a web site that offers some > tutorial-level explanations of corba's concepts (especially in the > context in which you're talking)? This might be overkill for you Evan but I'm definitely going to take a look at it: Java Programming With CORBA http://www.wiley.com/compbooks/vogel/ It should be out by now and the author claimed that it's agreat book :) He specifically mentioned that there is a portion on design patterns which I hope will be worth the price of admission. I also have a book: Instant CORBA ISBN which I could lend you. I'm still on the first chapter but it seems to be aimed at a basic/intermediate introduction with a "management" set of side bar tips for those with no attention span. Also follow the links around Linas' web site. I know that there are some tutorials around there: http://linas.org/linux/corba.html Regards, -- Matthew Rice e-mail: matthew.rice@ftlsol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:01:29 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:40:24 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Hi, > > It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > > > > > Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages > > > using a web browser as the front end? > > Yes. > > > I sure hope so, because that's what we are doing in several places. > > The thin client greatly simplifies managing client software -- you > > just need to install netscape! > > I built one of these, see http://teleportal.com, > http://siliconhillstravel.com, http://intransco.com > http://ontheflytravel.com for working examples. Its for > a travel res system. > > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end > in corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have > a cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from > very begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back > end. > > You won't understand what I'm saying until you actually get to version 2 > of your stuff, so take it on faith: the browser-as-client can be > way-too-thin at times. > I _think_ I agree with you. Maintaining state with a stateless client requires a lot of pointless error-prone overhead, and makes seemignly simple tasks impossible. Just yesterday a salesman ran a web-based demo and forgot to close the browser. Called me up and said 'can you make sure he is logged out' -- sorry, no can do with just HTTP/HTML. As for the cgi-bin interface itself, I'm not sure what you are referring to. We use embedded perl and the CGI module which deals with the mechanics of getting query parameters and also allows persistant back-end connections. (To a tuxedo-based backend). Still, it is a slow, slogging process to create complex entry page sets. However the very thin-ness and ubiquity of the browser as a client makes this approach the way to go up to some reasonable level of application complexity. After a while you run into problems with the simplistic GUI capabilities of forms (no cascaded selection, for example), and my experiments with javascript have not been encouraging. Another advantage of browser-only (or should that be HTML-only?) clients is you can mock up a prototype, tell your boss (or his boss!) to check out http://your-trusty-linux-box/fantastic-new-product, and really get things moving. This can be pretty effective. So I'd modify your statement and say for front-ends browser+cgi (or eperl) is fine for prototyping and for basic apps, but seriously plan for java clients early on in development if the thin-client doesn't cut the mustard, so to speak. As for backends, my feeling is to start out with a real RDBMS, no matter how simple the project seems. No flat files for me!. Comments/Criticisims welcome. -- cary NB: 1) I've done lots of web apps with embedded scripting languages talking to RDBMS's or backend systems. 2) Our current 'big backend' uses tuxedo. 3) On one project we will be providing java clients as an added cost feature. 4) Never used corba, heard good things about it. 5) Haven't done more than trivial Java clients, but I'm _trying_ to rectify that situation. > I'm tired of writing email, but if you pressure me, I can explain > the claims above, and provide tips about design decisions that turn out > to be important later. > > --linas > > > Extra Credit: > > > > Anyone know of an X plugin for netscape? It would turn netscape into > > an x-server. > > Its called "broadway", and the x consortium (now the open group??) > is working on it. Should be in beta, at least, don't know if it runs on > linux yet. > > --linas > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:13:18 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:20:40 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Michael Morrison cc: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Michael Morrison wrote: > Dwight Johnson wrote: > > > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm > Poor slobs have been assimilated Yeah, the propaganda element was hard to miss -- especially the story of the first guy who was described as "understanding Unix", but appreciated the superiority of the Windows way of computing. - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:13:45 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:19:13 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Two interesting comments to: (Brain of Stig) "Open Source"??? Bleeeeeech! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > In message: <19980223054729.16972.qmail@hackvan.com> > "Stig HackV n" writes: > > > >I like "cooperative software" better than "open source software", because it > >captures the essence of what makes our stuff different from the offerrings > >of the proprietary world of "commercial software" world. I like cooperative software too but not better than open source. But the decision has already been made and has critical mass-- it's open source. All we have to do now is educate the press. 'cooperative' can come along as a further descriptive adjective. Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:13:48 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:56:02 -0800 From: Rob Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: evan@telly.org Cc: mike@ringo.reno.nv.us, linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com >>>>> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:20:40 -0500 (EST), Evan Leibovitch >>>>> said: Evan> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Michael Morrison wrote: >> Dwight Johnson wrote: >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm >> Poor slobs have been assimilated Evan> Yeah, the propaganda element was hard to miss -- especially the story of Evan> the first guy who was described as "understanding Unix", but appreciated Evan> the superiority of the Windows way of computing. was that the same guy who was using linux since 1989, two years before Linus was using it? rob ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:13:57 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: cobrien@access.digex.net (Cary B. O'Brien) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:59:30 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > Maintaining state with a stateless > client requires a lot of pointless error-prone overhead, Bing!!!! > We use embedded perl and the CGI module which deals Have you ever given your embedded pel web page to an artist, and say "make the colors nice, use a good logo, and move these buttons from the top to the bottom of the screen? " The artist replies "I tried opening your code in my favorite html wysiwyg tool, and nothing worked". Haha. translation to foreign langs is also hard, and if you have 10's or hundreds of web sites using the same code, but with different page backgrounds, different layouts, different logos, etc. then maintenance, enhancements, updates become a nightmare. > As for backends, my feeling is to start out with a real RDBMS, no > matter how simple the project seems. No flat files for me!. Yes. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:14:08 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:42:24 -0600 (CST) From: "Eric L. Green " To: Evan Leibovitch cc: linas@linas.org, "Cary B. O'Brien" , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in > > corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a I'll agree on cgi-bin being rather nasty and ugly, not to mention slow. What about the FastCGI interface? Have you looked at it lately? Does it make things uglier, or what? As for HTML forms not being the ideal user interface, well, yes. But they're device independent and will run on things that won't run Java (e.g. dumb terminals using Lynx). Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants Systems Specialist Educational Administration Solutions "We believe Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:14:42 1998 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:23:04 -0500 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Marc Sherman Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Control an NT box from Xwindows (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I did a search for "VCN" at their site but nothing matched. Do you have a more specfic URL? tia, ..Marc At 04:13 PM 2/26/98 -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:43:22 -0500 >From: James Ervin >Reply-To: inet-access@earth.com >To: inet-access@earth.com >Subject: Control an NT box from Xwindows >Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:44:46 -0700 (MST) >Resent-From: inet-access@earth.com > >Just wanted to mention an app that saved me a few headaches: > >VCN byOlivetti-Oracle Laboratory >(http://www.orl.co.uk/); > >You can take over the desktop of an NT/95/Xwindows system from any >NT/95/Xwindows system. It is small, portable and can be run as a java app >through a web browser. Now I can sit at my linux box and >check/restart/re-boot >the NT boxes in the system. > >Sort of like PCAnywhere, but can be run through the web and through Xwindows. >It is also under the GPL, so it is free. > > > > >James Ervin >City of Bedford Network Administration >admin@ci.bedford.va.us >(540)586-7156 > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:16:40 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:20:07 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: Marc Sherman cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Control an NT box from Xwindows (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com VNC... -- [L]inux has an installed base conservatively estimated at around 3 million users.... [V]endors say that most of the top companies in the US have bought the OS - but that few will readily admit to running their multimillion-dollar corporations on code put together by a band of software idealists. -- _Wired_ On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Marc Sherman wrote: > I did a search for "VCN" at their site but nothing matched. Do you have a > more specfic URL? > > tia, > ..Marc > > > At 04:13 PM 2/26/98 -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:43:22 -0500 > >From: James Ervin > >Reply-To: inet-access@earth.com > >To: inet-access@earth.com > >Subject: Control an NT box from Xwindows > >Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:44:46 -0700 (MST) > >Resent-From: inet-access@earth.com > > > >Just wanted to mention an app that saved me a few headaches: > > > >VCN byOlivetti-Oracle Laboratory > >(http://www.orl.co.uk/); > > > >You can take over the desktop of an NT/95/Xwindows system from any > >NT/95/Xwindows system. It is small, portable and can be run as a java app > >through a web browser. Now I can sit at my linux box and > >check/restart/re-boot > >the NT boxes in the system. > > > >Sort of like PCAnywhere, but can be run through the web and through Xwindows. > >It is also under the GPL, so it is free. > > > > > > > > > >James Ervin > >City of Bedford Network Administration > >admin@ci.bedford.va.us > >(540)586-7156 > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:16:42 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:25:10 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > > Maintaining state with a stateless > > client requires a lot of pointless error-prone overhead, > > Bing!!!! > Ok, we definitaly agree on that. > > We use embedded perl and the CGI module which deals > > Have you ever given your embedded pel web page to an artist, and > say "make the colors nice, use a good logo, and move these buttons from > the top to the bottom of the screen? " > > The artist replies "I tried opening your code in my favorite > html wysiwyg tool, and nothing worked". > > Haha. > Hold on, there. With embedded perl at least _some_ of the file is plain old html. That's at least better than pure-perl cgi scripts! One thing you can do is tell the graphic artist to mock up the pages first and then stick in the embedded perl. You can call out to packages, so the perl code can be kept to, oh, 3-4 lines. > translation to foreign langs is also hard, and if you have 10's or > hundreds of web sites using the same code, but with different page > backgrounds, different layouts, different logos, etc. then maintenance, > enhancements, updates become a nightmare. > I hear echoes of a nasty experience here. Let me make sure I understand your solution... You advocate going right to a um-er- middleweight java client right away, rather than holding off till complexity gets out of hand for the html-cgi solution, right? The only difference of opinion is that I think html/cgi has some advantages (works with non-java browsers, lots of people understand it) and may be ok for RAD/ proof of concept/ simple apps. Your feeling is that it's not sutiable for anything. Just trying to focus on the heart of the matter. One other question -- where do the graphic artists fit in with the java client solution. > > As for backends, my feeling is to start out with a real RDBMS, no > > matter how simple the project seems. No flat files for me!. > > Yes. > Another point of agreement. I'm batting .666! -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 19:01:00 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:44:42 -0700 From: Evelyn Mitchell To: Marc Sherman Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Control an NT box from Xwindows (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com The direct url is http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ We're taking a look at it right now and it works pretty well. It is slow, so I wouldn't recommend it for Windows games under Linux, but it certainly is fast enough for most of what I do with Windows (Quicken/Quickbooks). You get Windows within X and X within Windows. You share your X display anywhere you want. Sean said the install was easy. Regards, Evelyn mitchell efm@tummy.com On Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 09:23:04AM -0500, Marc Sherman wrote: > I did a search for "VCN" at their site but nothing matched. Do you have a > more specfic URL? > > tia, > ..Marc > > > At 04:13 PM 2/26/98 -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:43:22 -0500 > >From: James Ervin > >Reply-To: inet-access@earth.com > >To: inet-access@earth.com > >Subject: Control an NT box from Xwindows > >Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:44:46 -0700 (MST) > >Resent-From: inet-access@earth.com > > > >Just wanted to mention an app that saved me a few headaches: > > > >VCN byOlivetti-Oracle Laboratory > >(http://www.orl.co.uk/); > > > >You can take over the desktop of an NT/95/Xwindows system from any > >NT/95/Xwindows system. It is small, portable and can be run as a java app > >through a web browser. Now I can sit at my linux box and > >check/restart/re-boot > >the NT boxes in the system. > > > >Sort of like PCAnywhere, but can be run through the web and through Xwindows. > >It is also under the GPL, so it is free. > > > > > > > > > >James Ervin > >City of Bedford Network Administration > >admin@ci.bedford.va.us > >(540)586-7156 > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 19:01:20 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:54:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric D. Berg" To: Evan Leibovitch Cc: linas@linas.org, "Cary B. O'Brien" , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Anyone have any thoughts on how XML might play into this. My understanding so far is that it will be a very powerful structured data delivery format which seems to me would be very apropriate to a Java front end. I'm in the same boat as many, though having much heresay knowledge, but no actual experience with either Java, CORBA or XML. -Eric. Eric Berg Linux rules. Sr. Web Engineer Sybase, Inc. http://support.sybase.com On Thu 26-February, Evan Leibovitch just HAD to say: > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in > > corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a > > cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from very > > begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back end. > > OK,, Linas, you've sold me on the idea, though I need to have a *far* > better grasp on the concepts involved than I do. > > Does there exist a book or (preferably) a web site that offers some > tutorial-level explanations of corba's concepts (especially in the > context in which you're talking)? > > - Evan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 19:06:11 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:12:36 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric D. Berg" To: rob@cisco.com Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Now, Rob, be fair. (we can afford to, right?) They did say 1993. -Eric. Eric Berg Linux rules. Sr. Web Engineer Sybase, Inc. http://support.sybase.com On Fri 27-February, Rob Walker just HAD to say: > > >>>>> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:20:40 -0500 (EST), Evan Leibovitch > >>>>> said: > > Evan> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Michael Morrison wrote: > >> Dwight Johnson wrote: > >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm > > >> Poor slobs have been assimilated > > Evan> Yeah, the propaganda element was hard to miss -- especially the story of > Evan> the first guy who was described as "understanding Unix", but appreciated > Evan> the superiority of the Windows way of computing. > > was that the same guy who was using linux since 1989, two years before > Linus was using it? > > rob > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 21:01:56 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:27:08 -0800 From: Rob Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: eberg@sybase.com Cc: rob@cisco.com, linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com oh, I am sorry. I must have either 1. misread the article *and* misremembered a conversation on another list about it. 2. they have changed their web page based on user feedback. I would like for it to be #2, but I bet it was #1. thx, rob >>>>> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:12:36 -0800 (PST), "Eric D. Berg" said: Eric> Now, Rob, be fair. (we can afford to, right?) They did say 1993. Eric> -Eric. Eric> Eric Berg Linux rules. Eric> Sr. Web Engineer Eric> Sybase, Inc. Eric> http://support.sybase.com Eric> On Fri 27-February, Rob Walker just HAD to say: >> >> >>>>> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:20:40 -0500 (EST), Evan Leibovitch >> >>>>> said: >> Evan> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Michael Morrison wrote: >> >> Dwight Johnson wrote: >> >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm >> >> >> Poor slobs have been assimilated >> Evan> Yeah, the propaganda element was hard to miss -- especially the story of Evan> the first guy who was described as "understanding Unix", but appreciated Evan> the superiority of the Windows way of computing. >> >> was that the same guy who was using linux since 1989, two years before >> Linus was using it? >> >> rob >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 21:02:00 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:16:43 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: inet-access@earth.com cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Control an NT box from Xwindows (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > I did a search for "VCN" at their site but nothing matched. Do you have a > more specfic URL? http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 21:02:13 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:06:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric D. Berg" To: exec@softdisk.com Cc: Evan Leibovitch , linas@linas.org, "Cary B. O'Brien" , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I've got to mention Apache's API here. I've just begun to work with the mod_perl Perl wrapper for the C API. It's very cool. I recommend checking it out if you do Perl and have a need for the server-side wins. I'm very impressed, and have heard from quite respectable groups that they're using it. You can do filtering of content (i.e., server side include type stuff) as well as authentication and anythign that you can do with CGI, only it's server resident, so there's none of that ugly startup/cleanup that you have with CGI. -Eric. Eric Berg Linux rules. Sr. Web Engineer Sybase, Inc. http://support.sybase.com On Fri 27-February, "Eric L. Green " just HAD to say: > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > > > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in > > > corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a > > I'll agree on cgi-bin being rather nasty and ugly, not to mention slow. > What about the FastCGI interface? Have you looked at it lately? Does it > make things uglier, or what? > > As for HTML forms not being the ideal user interface, well, yes. But > they're device independent and will run on things that won't run Java > (e.g. dumb terminals using Lynx). > > Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants Systems Specialist > Educational Administration Solutions > "We believe Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 21:10:26 1998 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:46:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 From: jcc2@juno.com (John C Cusick) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:16:25 -0500 (EST) Evan Leibovitch writes: >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Eric L. Green wrote: > >> On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Donald B. Marti Jr. wrote: > >> There is no on-line documentation bundled with >> LaTeX as far as I can tell, unlike the extensive (like, 4-inch stack of >> laser-printed pages) on-line documentation that comes with Perl5. > >To be honest, there *are* other resources (one of which involved >joining TUG, the TeX users' group). But I don't begrudge Lamport the ability >to earn some royalty money; if someone wanted to do a freeware LaTeX doc >there's nothing to stop them. > >> Personally, I consider software such as TeX for which adequate >on-line documentation does not exist to be 'crippleware', no different from >all the crippled 'shareware' programs that afflict the Windows world. If >it weren't for the status of Donald Knuth in the academic world I doubt >that anybody would have bothered looking at TeX, 'free' or not. > >I disagree. Many people won't begrudge Knuth and Lamport's particular >method of writing OpenSource software and still being able to pay the >mortgage. (After all, one book can serve a *lot* of eyes). And, BTW, >there's a significant amount of usable LaTeX docs in the Linux 'tetex' >package. True. > There is lots of of documentation available on the WWW. I recently downloaded 4 or 5 basic tutorials from a site in the UK that were very good. It was one of many mirror sites that I found doing a simple search on the word 'LaTeX'. All kinds of great add-in packages also - with documentation. Seek and ye shall find. JCC _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 22:47:17 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:41:38 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Linux Business Discussion Group X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] VNC anyone? [http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Anyone seen this? How well does it work? I'd love to have something like this at work so I could run both NT 4 and X-Win apps on the same "TV". :-) ... __________________________________________________________________ http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ What is VNC? - A practical introduction VNC stands for Virtual Network Computing. It is, in essence, a remote display system which allows you to view a computing 'desktop' environment not only on the machine where it is running, but from anywhere on the Internet and from a wide variety of machine architectures. __________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. PS: [OFFTOPIC], but does anyone have experience with accessing smb-mounted NT-filesystems from DOSEMU as lettered devices (D:, E: etc. ? (I have currently 73 remote NT shares mounted!... and would like to be able to run some oldtime MS-MAIL Admin program from Linux on them.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 22:48:38 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:01:26 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Linux Business Discussion Group X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] YES, I AM GUILTY (of posting first and reading post later) ;-) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I just posted a question if anyone heard of "VCN" ... 5 minutes later I notice everyone on linux-biz seems to have been talking about it for a couple of days. Oh well. Sorry about that. __________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 23:02:00 1998 Date: 27 Feb 1998 21:29:41 -0000 To: Linux in Business From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Freedows 98 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This looks like serious vaporware at this point, but I certainly wish them luck... http://home.inreach.com/chipchkn/freedows/english/news/news_971219.html By far, the most important issue to address, and one that has caused the greatest amount of concern as of late, is the development team status. Lloyd Duhon, Development Team Lead, has requested that I again reitterate that the development team is in need of members for the core team. The sole task at the moment for the core team is to develop a set of Kernel specifications. These specifications will quickly result in a solid core for the remainder of the OS. [...] Yep, quite an ambitious preannouncement. See http://www.freedows.org/ if you have the spare time... Stig ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- From: Dennis Allison To: stig@hackvan.com Subject: Freedows 98 [It had to happen ... -dra] Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:26:07 -0800 Message-Id: <199802272026.MAA31580@sumeru.stanford.EDU> Freedows 98 A new Linux for the masses? A liberation from Microsoft's desk top monopoly? Running applications you always wanted but that where not available for your platform? And all this for free? This almost sounds to good to be true, but this group of people collaborating on the Freedows project seem determined to make it happen. Not in the next 5 years or so, but this year. Wish them well and hope they succeed, because this would be a turning point in computing history. Read what they say about it and if you want to know more, pick one of the sites at the end of this page. Freedows is a free OS being developed under the GNU Public License. It's based on a design that will allow it to run programs from multiple OSes simultaneously. Freedows will be based on the "Cache Kernel" design developed by researchers at Stanford University. This design will be utilized to create an OS that is able to run applications from many different OSes, even those based on completely different processors and hardware, like the Macintosh or Amiga. Through the use of "application kernels," Freedows will be able to provide dynamically loaded, on-the-fly OS support. Much as your Internet browser can use plug-ins to view different types of files, Freedows will be able to have Application Kernels plugged in to provide additional OS support. In our final release, planned for sometime in 1998, we will include full Windows 16- and 32-bit emulation. This will include both support for Windows 95 applications and for Windows NT applications. Additionally, we will also provide support for DOS applications, likely through a port of FreeDOS. Future plans include a Linux AK in Freedows 1.2 (1999) and MacOS in Freedows 2.0 (2000). In addition, classic systems, such as the Commodore 64 and Tandy CoCo will also have emulations available under Freedows. In the Freedows team, we feel that easy customizability of the OS will be able to provide the user with something that is much more user-friendly to work in. This is why we are designing FOOIS, The Freedows Object Oriented Interface System. These "objects," which will include Windows, Buttons, and Dialog Boxes, will be fully changable. If you wish to have a different icon in your "Question" dialog box, you will be able to change that. If you wish to have a totally Mac like interface, that too will be possible. In fact, through the use of various "FOOIS GUI Schemes," you will be able to have your interface on any Freedows system that you wish to use. Just pop in the disk, click on a button, and away you go! Along with the Object Oriented Interface will be something that has been missing from recent GUI based OSes -- support for scripting languages. Freedows will provide a full range of integrated languages, for everything from task automation to application development. These will include, in our first release, a C++ compiler, a ReXX system and a Scheme/Visual Programming Language similar to Visual Basic. The final great part of Freedows is that all of this will be released under the GNU Public Licence. This will not only allow free distribution of binaries, but source code as well. And, through Development Kits and a "Patch Support Program," other 3rd party developers will be able to quickly create Freedows Applications, and AK's, as well as have us provide patches and drivers for any bugs that they repair. We plan on providng full access to Freedows source/binaries through the Internet, as well as providing, at cost, Freedows CD-ROM distributions. ------- end ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 28 00:01:39 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:37:10 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: Leif Erlingsson cc: Linux Business Discussion Group Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VNC anyone? [http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I played with this last night and today. Last night I installed "test r6" (which is apparently already old) on a win95 osr2 machine, and was able to take it over from my libc5 based redhat 4.2 machine. I tried to coax "test r7" into installing onto a nt workstation in a lab at school but they're obviously locked down a little better than that. =) I suppose if I could get the result of the "setup" -- the app and the registry stuff -- I could probably have run it since they claim it can be run off of a floppy (maybe that's only the viewer half). Anyays, I gave up. I didn't try the binary on a redhat 5 (glibc) machine, though in retrospect I should have. I tried to compile the source and got an error which I don't recall off hand. So, I compiled the source on a solaris 2.5.1 machine and though makedepend whined a lot it built beautiflly. I tested the server and the viewer under solaris and it worked fine, albiet a bit differently than the win32 server does (necessarily, I'm not saying there's a bug). I haven't run it tough hard, just ran simple stuff like notepad, netscape, and so on. It had trouble with the colors of the windows wallpaper (a bitmap of some kittens playing) but no other color-related problems. You'll notice a palett shift on an 8 bit display connecting to another 8 bit display, I think. Ah well. I like it alot, and given that it's GPL'd I'm looking forward to people taking it and enhancing it, for instance, to have a better authentication scheme. I'd like to see it made pam-aware and let people write their own little pam.conf-ish entries to control who can get at their desktop. I think U. of Michigan has an NT/PAM type of thing working, so this could be doable for both server platforms. jim -- [L]inux has an installed base conservatively estimated at around 3 million users.... [V]endors say that most of the top companies in the US have bought the OS - but that few will readily admit to running their multimillion-dollar corporations on code put together by a band of software idealists. -- _Wired_ On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > > Anyone seen this? How well does it work? I'd love to have > something like this at work so I could run both NT 4 and > X-Win apps on the same "TV". :-) ... > __________________________________________________________________ > > http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ > > What is VNC? - A practical introduction > > VNC stands for Virtual Network Computing. It is, in essence, a > remote display system which allows you to view a computing > 'desktop' environment not only on the machine where it is running, > but from anywhere on the Internet and from a wide variety of > machine architectures. > > __________________________________________________________________ > Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. > TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. > I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. > > > PS: [OFFTOPIC], but does anyone have experience with accessing > smb-mounted NT-filesystems from DOSEMU as lettered devices (D:, E: > etc. ? (I have currently 73 remote NT shares mounted!... and > would like to be able to run some oldtime MS-MAIL Admin program > from Linux on them.) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 28 04:01:12 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:01:30 -0600 (CST) From: "Eric L. Green " To: Jim Hebert cc: Linux Business Discussion Group Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VNC anyone? [http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Jim Hebert wrote: > I didn't try the binary on a redhat 5 (glibc) machine, though in > retrospect I should have. I tried to compile the source and got an error I just tried it. It is no speed demon. The Java client is pretty much unusable in Netscape (Linux) or Exploder (Win95) due to the slow speed. The only saving grace is that the slow speed is apparently due to compression/decompression overhead -- I sat here looking at the load on my hub while it was running and unlike "X" it didn't saturate my network for big screen redraws. My next step is to try to run it over a modem... anybody tried that yet? Hmm, let me try it real quick... nope. Pretty much unusable :-(. (If you thought X was slow over a modem...). Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants Systems Specialist Educational Administration Solutions "We believe Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 28 04:04:05 1998 Date: 27 Feb 1998 23:18:54 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] (News, RISKS) Risk: Massive NT Outage due to Registry corruption [mandrews@fd9ns01.okladot.state.ok.us] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- From: mandrews@fd9ns01.okladot.state.ok.us Subject: Risk: Massive NT Outage due to Registry corruption Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:23:36 -0500 X-Digest: RISKS DIGEST 19.60 [This was sent me by someone at a Fortune-100 manufacturer, and is anonymized and sanitized at the original sender's request. It is genuine.] > The recent power fluctuations here in [placename] corrupted the NT > registries in our [server-community-names]. As a result, our entire NT > network (>10K machines) is down, and has been since 5 am this > morning. (I'm doing direct IP to [product-name] to do mail. Thank God.) > Once the registries got corrupted, the databases of user signons went, > too. And, of course, the tape backups won't load because NT requires a > timestamp somewhere in the guts that the tape image doesn't match to the > clock. So every NT server, and most NT workstations, won't do anything > except local work. > If this were just office workers, it would be annoying enough. But the > [product name] servers require such close tie-ins to the machine accounts > that they are dead -- guess what helps run our factories? Can you say loss > of $1M+ per hour?" > Why am I telling you? Because our NT guys have suddenly realized that this > is a good candidate for a denial of service attack: once the registries > get corrupted, the entire resource domain has to be reloaded by hand -- > and that apparently includes desktops. If you have ideas on how to go > check the registries on your NT servers, I'd suggest you go do so. In another letter, the original sender elaborates: > If you are recovering from this, every desktop user will have to > delete/disable their .pwl file to be able to get back on the > network, because that file hardcodes which domain server they are > on. HOWEVER, if they do that, they can then not get into any other service > on their desktop for which they've stored the password, because they're > all in that file. if the user doesn't remember the password, they're SOL, > because the latest patch from MS keeps the *.pwl files from being hackable > by the "standard" hacker and pwledit tools -- but it is also rendered > unreadable to the MS standard pwl editor, too. The total outage was in excess of 12 hours, and the loss-of-revenue from the outage is estimated to be more than $10 million. Mike Andrews, D.P. Director, Okla. Dept. of Transportation mandrews@fd9ns01.okladot.state.ok.us ------- end ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 28 04:05:18 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:14:24 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Linux in a box X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/opinion/0223/23mach.html The Zero Admin microserver. It runs Linux and all admin is via a web browser. -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 28 04:08:30 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:13:36 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] VNC 3.3.1 RPM uploaded (fwd) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com These will show up at ftp.redhat.com in the contrib directory (probably) sometime in the next 24 hours. Dwight ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:31:55 +0100 From: Karl Wallner To: redhat-announce-list@redhat.com Subject: VNC 3.3.1 RPM uploaded Resent-Date: 27 Feb 1998 22:33:43 -0000 Resent-From: redhat-announce-list@redhat.com Resent-cc: recipient.list.not.shown:; Hello, I have uploaded vnc (Virtual Network Computing) RPMS. RPMS are built with RedHat 4.2 (sorry I've no 5.0 running, maybe next week). vnc-3.3.1-1.i386_libc5.rpm vnc-3.3.1-1.src.rpm What is VNC ? ============= VNC is a project of Oracle/Olivetti Research Lab. They have kindly released this software under GPL License. This is taken from: http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- VNC stands for Virtual Network Computing. It is, in essence, a remote display system which allows you to view a computing 'desktop' environment not only on the machine where it is running, but from anywhere on the Internet and from a wide variety of machine architectures. --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- It's a really great piece of software. You can view your X-Desktop from your Windows PC, and your Windows Desktop from your Linux or X-Workstation or everything else running Java. What is different to the original VNC ? ======================================= 1. Works with XFree86 (gzipped) fonts. 2. Integrated Java classes. 3. Moved everything in place. 3. Packed as RPM. Anything else ? =============== I also put packages for solaris (aka. slowlaris) into our download area. ftp://ftp.weps.de/sparc-sun-solaris2/vnc-3.3.1-1.sparc-sun-solaris2.pkg.gz ftp://ftp.weps.de/sparc-sun-solaris2/vnc-3.3.1-1.sparc-sun-solaris2.tar.gz ftp://ftp.weps.de/x86-sun-solaris2/vnc-3.3.1-1.x86-sun-solaris2.pkg.gz ftp://ftp.weps.de/x86-sun-solaris2/vnc-3.3.1-1.x86-sun-solaris2.tar.gz That's it ========= Please give me feedback on these packages. Please try to build them on RedHat 5.0 and on sparc and alpha architectures! If you think they should be built a different way, please let me know! Have Fun. Karl Wallner karl@weps.de -- To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-announce-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 1 10:03:14 1998 Date: 1 Mar 1998 08:21:10 -0000 To: exec@softdisk.com Cc: linas@linas.org, linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Cooperative Educational Software From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric L. Green wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > So I'd sggest defining what "personal use" means. -- I'd say that > > niche-market commercial/govt-use software is potentially in danger > > of competition form Open Source just as much as the more mainstream > > stuff. > > I would agree. As I said, the more mainstream stuff like word processing > is most likely to be the LAST thing to be done under the Open Source > model. > > One idea we've tossed around here is forming a non-profit consortium to > develop educational administration software. After all, none of us are > going to get rich in this business anyhow, or even be able to afford a > Lexus (:-}). See also http://trp.research.apple.com/EdEconomy/ What is an Educational Object Economy? This EOE (http://trp.research.apple.com) is a community of Educators, Developers and Businesses working together to use, create, and collaborate upon Educational Java objects on the web. Currently, there are over 1350 educational Java objects in the library, covering virtually every subject area. These interactive simulations, illustrations, and exercises are available at no cost for anyone with web access to use. In contrast to many efforts, the EOE is a member-generated community where members can build upon their strengths. Instead of requiring Educators, for instance, to learn Java in order to affect which Java objects get created or modified, they can use their expertise (pedagogical and subject-related) to use the educational objects and give suggestions to (or even work with) Java developers to make better Java objects. For more information, check out the Adobe Acrobat version of our latest EOE Brochure. Feel free to print one out and pass it around! (If you don't have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your machine, you can download it here) In general, an EOE is a community of people working together to improve the quality and availability of web-based learning materials. Apple, NSF, universities, publishers, and many others have created the first exemplar EOE (at http://trp.research.apple.com), and we are now helping others start their own EOEs. A key part of an EOE is web site technology that helps empower community members to work together. An EOE web site must allow members to easily gather, share, and add value to web-based materials of interest to the community. The technology required to set up an EOE is relatively straightforward. However, creating a vibrant community that is actively achieving its goals, and reflecting that activity through the web site, is a challenging task. > Said consortium in the preliminary discussions does not use the Open > Source model because, as one potential member put it, "why should others > get the benefit of software we're paying to develop?". What arguments > can/should I use in such a situation? Well, there are several tacks that you can take: explain the "prisoners' dilemma" explain that if they cooperate on development, they will spend less than the full cost that they would otherwise bear for an in-house application. ASK: Does it cost you anything extra to give your software away? ASK: Are you prepared to explain that they stand to set a good example for other entities who may share their in-house applications as a thank-you. > My argument: We can get those folks to join via offering support only to > members, thus reducing YOUR cost of membership. Thus the Open Source model > would actually be of benefit to the current members because it brings more > members into the pool. > > Any other arguments you can think of? Education has always been a stronghold for cooperative software and freeware because there are so many students. Younger students can't necessarily write code for their peers, but older students can do it. Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 1 18:02:16 1998 From: jeff.covey@pobox.com (jeff covey) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Mailer: VM 6.37 under Emacs 19.34.1 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:16 EST X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "biffhero" == Rob Walker writes: biffhero> oh, I am sorry. I must have either biffhero> 1. misread the article *and* misremembered a biffhero> conversation on another list about it. biffhero> 2. they have changed their web page based on user biffhero> feedback. biffhero> I would like for it to be #2, but I bet it was #1. no, it was #2. m$ refered to that guy as using linux since 1989 until they got sick of getting (i imagine) several hundred emails an hour about it. - -- | ,-~~-.___. jeff covey, mailto:jeff.covey@pobox.com | | / | ' \ http://pobox.com/~jeff.covey | |( ) 0 baltimore, maryland 410-669-4926 | | \_/-, ,----' | | ==== // classical guitar, midi sequencing, | | / \-'~; /~~~(O) music notation, linux! and more! | | / __/~| / | for a list of files available from me, | |=( _____| (_________| send me mail with "send index" as subject | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBNPl71TnaR8Cs0X0pAQEmcQP/d9Rr1IBOH/zFCU1hVRz+9xDyBkd02Jwz N/yR0F8RxrUXQqExhiRAvKJw3zbzzb9Uqhge8QPTIR725BJ5ODOcM1WBsNBaTQIc Z3HlPxtxv8gPuTLo686r/qdoR87mJ+jqorh4bISN0CAmmVuZQIws+0ATs5JXMXD6 zyxKBJQXnxI= =3Iec -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- safety experts say school bus passengers should be belted -- actual newspaper headline ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 2 04:01:43 1998 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:20:24 -0800 From: Rob Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: jeff.covey@pobox.com Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:16 EST, jeff.covey@pobox.com (jeff covey) >>>>> said: >>>>> "biffhero" == Rob Walker writes: biffhero> oh, I am sorry. I must have either biffhero> 1. misread the article *and* misremembered a conversation biffhero> on another list about it. biffhero> 2. they have changed their web page based on user feedback. biffhero> I would like for it to be #2, but I bet it was #1. jeff> no, it was #2. m$ refered to that guy as using linux since 1989 jeff> until they got sick of getting (i imagine) several hundred jeff> emails an hour about it. ahhh, the vindication feels so good. thx, rob -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.7.1 Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBNPntM3Ie0vKywR5xAQEi9gP7BF0ZNcAhlQBSkfBjw4hFQPbr2uhPqII1 oSXDb3ACtCJTZ9CCRCutqUduO0O/1OJTSQ3SXvX05n+R7rQ38I5nMxgmPn0Kb/KV /ZN985WDY8EsQ0c/7svg1UIOvf+IHnWsNaA4jtiGXr/2Lg9DJGZjrUhFTPnvqaXD O1Chxtb9T4Y= =447+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 2 04:08:38 1998 Date: 2 Mar 1998 00:05:29 -0000 To: Evan Leibovitch Cc: linas@linas.org, Roger Hardwicke , exec@softdisk.com, linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Eric Raymond's latest From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > This is totally possible. They have to deal with the possibility, though, > that their maintenance revenue opportunities could be undercut by someone > with no programming resources who just feeds off their work. Since > everything done is GPL'd, you can't stop someone else from using the code > *you* write, to compete with you on aftermarket services. While this phenomenon will definitely tend to put a cap on support prices, Cygnus Support has been raping and pillaging on gcc support for some time now. A port that they might have one day charged $50k to do may now cost 10x or 20x as much. If you WROTE the code, you will almost always be the very best-qualified source of support and improvements to that code. I think that we'll see this with Communicator when it's released. There's just no way that the horde is going to quickly adapt to 5 million lines of new code quickly. Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 2 07:51:42 1998 Date: 2 Mar 1998 05:31:42 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Fwd: [svlug] F00F Bug follow-up [Rick Moen] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- From: Rick Moen To: svlug@svlug.org (SVLUG list) Subject: [svlug] F00F Bug follow-up Sender: owner-svlug@svlug.org Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:43:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803020243.SAA27216@hugin.imat.com> Content-Type: text Precedence: bulk X-Alternate-URL: http://www.svlug.org X-Mascot: penguin X-OS: Linux svlug.svlug.org 2.0.30 #3 Thu Aug 14 14:47:34 PDT 1997 i486 unknown It's been amusing to watch the spin-control efforts on the Pentium "F00F" or Halt-and-Catch Fire bug, discovered last year. That bug allows any Intel Pentium/Pentium MMX to be remotely and anonymously caused to hang, merely by sending it byte sequence "F0 0F C7 C8". Robert Collins notified Intel of the bug, twice, months before the controversy broke on Usenet, but Intel did nothing until an anonymous post from U. of Texas appeared on comp.os.linux.advocacy. (News reports incorrectly claimed that the story broke on comp.sys.intel, and CNET rather pathetically credited itself.) Eventually, Intel opened a P.R. Web page, at http://support.intel.com/support/processors/pentium/ppiie/index.htm, rather soothingly dubbing the bug the "Pentium Processor Invalid Instruction Erratum". (Never say "bug", and certainly never "the Pentium bug".) Intel released technical information only under non-disclosure, which helped BSDI release a binary-patch fix, which the Linux kernel team then reverse-engineered and implemented in improved form. And that was the end of the story, it seemed. For many months, the motley collection of "Vendor Statements" at http://support.intel.com/support/processors/pentium/ppiie/software.htm quoted BSDI and Linus saying "We fixed it" and everyone else saying "We're working closely with Intel...." (Meaning, "We're caught with no remedy and no plan to acquire one" -- except Novell, which clarified that NetWare is unaffected.) For many months, Microsoft's vendor statement said essentially "We're working closely with Intel [blah, blah], but it really doesn't matter, because only _malicious code_ could trigger the bug." (Well, yes, only "malicious code" can trigger it, but the huge number of ways a machine can be made to run code, especially with brain-damaged, insecure software, means it _does_ matter. For example, ActiveX.) However, recently, Microsoft has quietly appended to its vendor statement a reference to a "more information" page, at http://premium.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q163/8/52.asp, "Invalid Operand with Locked CMPXCHG8B Instruction". (Gee, nobody wants to say "Pentium bug", huh?) That page reveals that Microsoft has finally snuck out "hotfixes" for NT 3.51 and 4.0 -- but not for any revision of Win95. (Hotfixes are patches not yet included in any service pack, that come with no guarantees and have not undergone regression testing.) One interesting aspect of all this is how well both Intel and Microsoft have mastered the art of damage control via management of on-line bug information. This is really a much more serious bug than the infamous Pentium math bug, but never quite crossed over from geekdom into the public consciousness. Both companies waited until their more clueful customers' complaints reached an adequate volume, and then put up Web pages with mind-numbingly bureaucratic descriptions, that were as difficult to come across by accident as possible. This minimally placated the technical community, while avoiding alarming corporate executives, or even making them aware of the problem. With luck, the few who do stumble over the page will not recognise the problem or its severity, from the provided description. This approach has been applied in other areas, too: When Microsoft produced hotfixes that kinda-sorta addressed _some_ (possibly not all) variants of the Ping of Death attack, the patch is classified as "icmp-fix" and the symptom described as "A Stop 0x0000000A occurs in Tcpip.sys when receiving Out of Band (OOB) data." Doesn't sound much like "An anonymous stranger crashes your system by sending it Ping of Death packets from somewhere halfway around the world", does it? As codebases (such as NT 5 beta) keep going up into additional millions of lines of code, and corporate purchasers become increasingly clueless and susceptible to manipulation, I figure we can expect bug information from vendors to become ever more opaque and hidden. You will have to go through many layers of Web pages with mandatory questionnaires, to get to any kind of technical information, and then will only see what you can find in the vendor's indexes. To use those indexes half-way effectively, you'll have to learn the vendors' soothing nicknames du jour for any bugs you're interested in. (Er, I meant "issues" or "errata". Sometimes "problems". But never "bugs".) You will find less and less useful bug information by delving through ftp sites: The vendors are tending not to see your serendipitous discoveries as being to their advantage. They prefer to keep a sharp eye on what you find and are interested in, accumulate mandatory survey information on you so they can spam your USPS and e-mailboxes, and present the appropriate spin on whatever knowledge they're obliged to give you. Welcome to 1998. We're from the Marketing department. We're here to help you. - -- Virtual Regards, Rick Moen rick (at) hugin.imat.com Sysimperator, dominus rex deusque machinarum. - -- echo "unsubscribe svlug" | mail majordomo@svlug.org ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to unsubscribe ------- end ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 2 08:18:27 1998 Date: 2 Mar 1998 06:33:16 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] META: Could we try to stay topical? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I find that I'm really buried in mail and I find that topic drift on this list is a contributing factor. While message queueing with two-phase commit, the evils of coding an app to the stateless CGI interface, and java/corba are all interesting to me, but they're not entirely on-topic for the linux-biz list, are they? I have hundreds of "interesting" messages hitting my mailbox(es) every day... I'm trying very hard to focus on things that are important. Please at least make it a little bit easier by making an effort to stay topical. Also please try to change the Subject: header when the point of your message is drifting from the original thread. Thank you, Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 3 06:29:13 1998 Date: 3 Mar 1998 02:12:16 -0000 To: Evan Leibovitch Cc: linux-biz@lege.com From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux International X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Unfortunately, the ground is badly dented from all the balls Linux > International has dropped. > > Is LI good for *anything* these days? > I haven't been watching LI closely because they didn't seem to do anything. Of course "seem to" makes that a slippery statement and leaves wide open the possibility that I just wasn't paying enough attention. I'd be really interested in a recap (or a pointer to one). Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 3 06:36:37 1998 From: Kurt Buff To: "'linas@linas.org'" , Elliot Lee Cc: "linux-biz@lege.com" Subject: RE: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Business Discussion Group Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:44:56 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Don't know about the IBM product, but the MSFT product does require one to be running SQLServer, at least for the "master" or "controlling" instance of MSMQ. As to why this is, or if this is only an implementation detail meant to sell more product, I am not competent to say. However, even if for some fairly good reason a message queueing product needs a database to keep track of things, I would suggest that it would be useful to write it to an open standard, but obvously MSFT is going to try to sell their product first, rather than put in a generic ODBC solution. On Tuesday, February 24, 1998 11:20 PM, linas@linas.org [SMTP:linas@linas.org] wrote: | It's been rumoured that Elliot Lee said: | > | > On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Geoff Marshall wrote: | > | > > Linas@linas.org wrote | > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> | > > Again, for example: Linux doesn't have fault-tolerant, reliable, | > > two-phase-commit, rolllback-rollforward etc. etc. message queues. | > | > "Linux" doesn't need any of these things - it's the database that does | > these things. | | I think you don't understand the problem. Say I have one financial app, | and it is transfering money to another finacial app. Since its really | money, I really need to to really be reliably, securely, authenticatedly, | non-repudaiatedly delivered. This has nothing to do with databases. | Its about delivering messages. If the delivery of the message requires | the coordination of three apps... umm, OK, I am a novice at this, | but I don't see how one uses a database to do resource reservation | over the net. I can see how maybe its possible, but I am confused on | the issues. | | FWIW, both microsoft and IBM have message queing products, neither | of them have anything to do with databases. The IBM client does run on | Linux, btw. | | --linas | | ------------------------------------------------------------------ | Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-requ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNPoPGA3xegzLXcRmEQKVDgCfVZf1egcURrAQG9wth6wgEAHnmcoAoOq/ W/mIJcg2eTYYXOl0gkZwxZ5y =uFso -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 3 10:16:29 1998 Date: 3 Mar 1998 07:54:50 -0000 To: linas@linas.org Cc: dmarti@electriclichen.com (Don Marti), linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Old thread... linas@linas.org wrote: > > people still don't know what it is, still shy away from it. Even > if you have a superior product, you still have to let the world know > about it, convince them to use it, and the costs of doing this are 2-4 > times the cost of developing it. E.G. in "mature" companies, cost > of development is about 15% of budget, sales is 1/2 to 2/3's, the > rest of the cost is support & misc admin expenses. > > For linux, if you count the world-wide man-years spent on development, > compared to that on marketing (e.g. by caldera, redhat, va research, > and linux.org, misc web sites), you would find that development still > exceeds marketing by a large amount, which is how things look like > for a startup company (where vast majority of staff is in development, > little in marketing). By this standard, Linux is not "mature". But does the Net change the rules? Linux wasn't possible before the Net came along. I think that advertising and marketing are important, but I really hope that we can live in a world where perceptions are more in line with reality because of better access to information. I hope. Cross your fingers too, okay? Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 3 10:17:41 1998 From: linas@linas.org To: stig@devlinux.com (Stig HackVän) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:43:54 -0600 (CST) Cc: linas@linas.org, dmarti@electriclichen.com, linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text Subject: [linux-biz] Marketing & Reality X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Stig HackVän said: > > linas@linas.org wrote: > > > > people still don't know what [linux] is, still shy away from it. Even > > if you have a superior product, you still have to let the world know > > about it, convince them to use it, and the costs of doing this are 2-4 > > times the cost of developing it. E.G. in "mature" companies, cost > > of development is about 15% of budget, sales is 1/2 to 2/3's, the > > rest of the cost is support & misc admin expenses. > > > > For linux, if you count the world-wide man-years spent on development, > > compared to that on marketing (e.g. by caldera, redhat, va research, > > and linux.org, misc web sites), you would find that development still > > exceeds marketing by a large amount, which is how things look like > > for a startup company (where vast majority of staff is in development, > > little in marketing). By this standard, Linux is not "mature". > > But does the Net change the rules? Linux wasn't possible before the Net > came along. > > I think that advertising and marketing are important, but I really hope that > we can live in a world where perceptions are more in line with reality > because of better access to information. > > I hope. Cross your fingers too, okay? ahh ... but there is a morass between "perception", "subjective reality" and "objective reality". Marketing/advertising is used to change perception, and thereby blur the lines between objective & subjective reality. Lets examine the following analogy: objective reality == there is a unfied theory of gravity & quantum mechanics subjective reality == no human being knows what it is objective reality == Linux is the best subjective reality == never heard of Linux You claim, "The Net changes how information propagates". But it can also spead the spread of mis-information -- its a morally neutral technology. Also, note that unlike physics, beleifs about software can become self-fulfilling: If no one writes apps for NT, NT would die. But everyone writes apps for NT, because they are sure NT will win. Majority opinion today is that NT will win, unix will loose. Many/most beleive NT is better than unix (and indeed, in many ways it is). Will the net change thier minds fast enough to put Linux & Open Source into a dominant position, before NT self-fulfils? Or, like, Eric Raymond, should we beleive that Open Source is as inevitable as a steam roller? How can we ever discover the objective reality behind Eric's beleifs? Is there an objective reality at play, or are we merely trapped in a universe time line where history is the way it is, and the past really could have happened differently? Will the future be determined by the chaotic butterfly "for want of a nail, ..."? Even the marketing & advertising folks are split as to whose right, Abraham (you can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time) Lincoln, or Hitler's propagandist (If you say something reasonable once, it will sound outlandish. But if you repeat something outlandish over and over, people will come to regard it as a matter of course, as a factual truth). The human mind is very malleable, and that malleability can lead to tragic results just as easily as heroic ones. Bill Gates is a marketing whiz, but so was Charlie Manson ... that Linus Torvalds is not a marketing whiz doesn't make Linux more heroic, or better. Whatever. --linas > > Stig > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 3 17:16:19 1998 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:47:41 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Marketing & Reality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > It's been rumoured that Stig HackVän said: > > > people still don't know what [linux] is, still shy away from it. Even > > > if you have a superior product, you still have to let the world know > > > about it, convince them to use it, and the costs of doing this are 2-4 > > > times the cost of developing it. E.G. in "mature" companies, cost > > > of development is about 15% of budget, sales is 1/2 to 2/3's, the > > > rest of the cost is support & misc admin expenses. Yes, but Linux does indeed break these rules. One could easily make the argument that Linux has been 'sold' by the most extensive worldwide word-of-mouth campaign the world has ever known, using the Internet as the medium. > > > For linux, if you count the world-wide man-years spent on development, > > > compared to that on marketing (e.g. by caldera, redhat, va research, > > > and linux.org, misc web sites), you would find that development still > > > exceeds marketing by a large amount, which is how things look like > > > for a startup company (where vast majority of staff is in development, > > > little in marketing). By this standard, Linux is not "mature". ... and there are some, by this yardstick, that hopes it never totally grows up. There are many of us who *like* the idea of a project in which more resources are spent making a superior product, than on salesmanship. The logical bent of the computer enthusiast would prefer that the marketplace of technology present what's available, and let the user choose between them. Linux is the delivery of that preference, with all of its technology laid bare in source code for all to see. Don't like what you see? The development process gives an ear to all who advance better ideas. IMO this is why Linux fans have an almost evangelical fervor to their enthusiasm. Alas, all are not enthustasts. Just as not not all car buyers care about what's under the hood, not all computer buyers engage in a quest for superior technology. These people don't want to spend the effort to find out what's best, nor do they want to tinker with things or even learn how to tinker. These people want/need to be told what's best, and are the prime candidates for the professional marketeer. Microsoft does three things very, very well. It knows what the non-technical user wants from a computer, it knows how to deliver goods that are "good enough", and it knows how to market. Not to say everything Microsoft touches turns to gold (remember "Bob"?), but it has obviously tapped into the needs of the ignorant computer user better than anyone else. And given its history and the background of its community, I doubt whether Linux can *ever* appeal to this crowd the way MS does. We are moving in that direction, to be sure. Advancements in user interfaces such as KDE and COAS and RPM are certainly taking us closer to Microsoft's territory, but there's still a technical underbelly to Linux that requires someone to care about what's "under the hood" of their computer to really appreciate Linux. > ahh ... but there is a morass between "perception", "subjective reality" > and "objective reality". Marketing/advertising is used to change > perception, and thereby blur the lines between objective & subjective > reality. Indeed. And Linux has had the opportunity to experience both sides of such realities. While Linux users have complained that Microsoft had built a user base because its momentum is bigger than its technical superiority, I've heard FreeBSD launch the same complaint against Linux. Indeed, I find many similarities between the relationship between Microsoft and Linux, as between Linux and BSD. > objective reality == Linux is the best > subjective reality == never heard of Linux All that means is that reality is in the eye of the beholder. Even if you subscribe to the (hardly universal) belief that there are absolute truths in the world, we approach it from different backrounds, different experiences, different biases. > You claim, "The Net changes how information propagates". But it can > also spead the spread of mis-information -- its a morally neutral > technology. Yup. The Internet provides as close as we've come to a pure marketplace of ideas, and that's where technologists thrive and marketeers wilt. In printed media the editors or columnists get the first and last words, and responses are heavily culled and edited and presented many issues after the original words are spoken. On the Internet, every comment invites immediate reply, allowing the point-by-point quoting of specific passages, and the opportunity to stop BS dead in its tracks before it has a chance to become a rumour. Look at this thread on this mailing list... could such an exchange have been possible without the Internet, on *any* media? On the Internet, mis-information can (and does) get exposed as such. I like to believe that amongst our roles in this mailing list is to expose such spins as fakery; we give each other the ammunition required to fight the FUD-mongers when we're away from our screens and confronting smear campaigns in less-pure environments. > Also, note that unlike physics, beleifs about software can become > self-fulfilling: If no one writes apps for NT, NT would die. But > everyone writes apps for NT, because they are sure NT will win. > Majority opinion today is that NT will win, unix will loose. Yes, but majorities are fickle. Ten years ago the majority was using Lotus 123 as its spreadsheet. Microsoft has only demonstrated (as nobody doubted they could) that with enough money, and enough strongarm tactics in the marketplace, you could buy momentum. Sooner or later such tactics yield enough victims to allow for a backlash. > Many/most beleive NT is better than unix (and indeed, in many ways it > is). Will the net change thier minds fast enough to put Linux & Open > Source into a dominant position, before NT self-fulfils? Maybe I'm just too old. I remember when everyone thought that Commodore would forever dominate the PC marketplace. Then Apple. Then IBM. Who are these upstarts called Compaq and this funny PC-in-a-briefcase? I remember when my old VMS-using friends said that Unix was a flash in the pan and wouldn't last five years against DEC's offerings. I tend to get cynical about threats of things "self-fulfilling". Already I see people and media and others have second thoughts about NT. It's no doubt that Linux is heavily used in schools, and these students will eventually graduate and move into positions of purchasing power. And there is a growing number of case histories in which companies have plowed huge amonts into NT solutions with no increase in productivity. Most will stick with what they're told is the leader. But an increasing number of users are getting frustrated, looking under the hood, and finding their Windows lacking. And many of them find Linux on the rebound. Will this ever make Linux a market leader? Maybe not, just as Porsches will never sell as well as Ford Escorts. Some people prefer "simple" and "good enough", and Microsoft just may *always* do that better than Linux. We can add tools that will make Linux more palatable to the masses, and that will increase the attraction. We can initiate *some* conventional marketing, and that would help too, and that's why I'm so disgusted with Linux International's inaction. But I doubt we'll ever be as "slick" as the MS spin-doctors at the best of times; nor, do I suspect, do we really want to be that way. I can live with that. I just want to be ready for those who want more. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan Leibovitch * Xunil Computing * Brampton, Ontario, Canada * www.xunil.com Supporting Intel-based Unix and Linux since 1985 * Caldera & SCO authorized "Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 3 20:17:09 1998 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:56:12 -0600 (CST) From: Terrence Martin To: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Byte Magazine misinformation (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Dwight Johnson wrote: > >> Also it says, OpenLinux required us to manually create the swap and >> primary Linux partitions, and in contarst to the other versions of Unix, >> we also had to manually fine-tune our monitor, video card, and mouse >> settings before we could start the X server. > >Is this really misinformation? > >Unlike with any of the RISC systems, the Linux X server (be it XFree86 or >Metro or Xi) doesn't know ahead of time what kind of graphics card you >have. Sun and IBM and HP have a very limited range of chipsets to deal >with, so it makes sense that there'd be less hassle with them than an >Intel system. > >The huge variety of hardware on Intel platforms is indeed both a blessing >and a curse. > >I haven't read the article, but if these are Byte's worst complaints >about Linux, the article can't be that bad. Sorry if this response is a little belated, I have not been reading Linux Biz lately...I saw this though and I thought I would comment since I was brought this article by someone who knows I am a Linux fan. The problem with the article is that it implies with its "Star Rating" system that Linux is the worst of all the platforms. In fact if you examine the categories as well as complete lack of reasonable Metrics in the article it is laughable that they can come to any conclusion. Of course if we actually where given the facts we might actually be able to draw our own conclusions. The categories are Technology, Implementation, Performance(No hard numbers), Usability, Overall rating. To give you an idea of how the ratings were awarded, NT got the highest marks for the technology category. Enough said... They also make some strange comments. Like saying how Linux was uncomplicated and then they complain about how manual it is to set up. However the true colors of the article are shown through when you read the NT commentary. I quote "We find NT eminently suitable for running three-tier applications, as long as they do not require 24-hour, seven-day uptime"... What???!?! This is one of the best OxyMoronic sentences I have ever had the displeasure of reading. Anyway you get the idea. Lets be realistic NT got 3 stars just for this months advertising budget from Microsoft. Caldera Linux OTOH probably contributes the least of the products tested. Another problem I had was that they summed up the Hardware comparison between Linux and NT in terms of only CPU and total RAM. From personal experience there can be a substantial difference in performance given the controller card. If I am to assume SCSI for example having an Adaptec in the box would have hampered Linux whereas an NCR, which is much better supported in Linux would have resulted in a vastly different result. This is based on personal experience with an Adaptec 2940 and an NCR SCSI adapter on a Linux based News server. They also made no mention of which Kernel they ran, so I assume it was what came out of the box, whichever there copy had... They also used Netscape Fast Track (which comes with OpenLinux) in the comparison. The comparison would have been more accurate had they run Apache on the Linux box, in particular Apache 1.3x which is tuned for performance as Fast Track is simply not a high load web server. My conclusion, this Byte article is another example of a trade rag living up to the expectations of its advertisers. The unfortunate thing is that there are far to many people for whom this is all they read on the subject. Terrence ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 3 20:25:02 1998 Date: 3 Mar 1998 18:02:51 -0000 To: Don Marti Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Don Marti wrote: > > Philosophy time, is it? > Always. There's a fine line between a philosophy and a business plan. Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 3 20:25:57 1998 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:01:24 -0800 From: Don Marti To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stig_HackV=E4n?= Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Stig, > I think that advertising and marketing are important, but I really > hope that we can live in a world where perceptions are more in line > with reality because of better access to information. Philosophy time, is it? Marketing is in another transition, just like the transition from mass marketing to database marketing. People who do database marketing today won't like this any more than the Sears catalog people liked the 1980s targeted catalog explosion. 1. Craft marketing (Middle Ages - 1920s?) Manufacturing and information technology are both very expensive. Products are made and sold largely on a one-to-one basis. 2. Mass marketing (1920s? - 1970s) Price of manufacturing drops only for large quantities of identical goods. Information technology is very expensive, too expensive for merchant to track individual customers. Surveys. Sales reports. Advertising. 3. Database marketing (1980s - 1990s) Price of manufacturing drops further; mass customization possible. Information technology prices fall to the point where it is cost-effective for merchants to track individual customers. Catalogs. Direct mail. Telemarketing. Individualized magazine advertisements. Today's web commerce sites. 4. Death of marketing (2000) Information technology prices fall enough for customers to establish their own systems for comparing merchants. Price searchers. Reputation servers. Micro product review sites and independent purchase preference correlation search engines. Sucks-Rules-O-Meters. Every man or woman his or her own "Consumer Reports." Merchants abandon conventional marketing; put budget into raising product quality or cutting prices. Linux and other free software are enabling technology for step 4. A smart company could make step 4 tools available and win all the early step 4 adopters. (The best example of I can think of today is a web site where people post how well their laptops to work with Linux. No mfr. marketing at all, but it can drive the purchase of millions of dollars worth of hardware.) -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 3 22:07:34 1998 X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ From: "Stig HackVän" To: "What's all this Linux Business?" Date: 3 Mar 1998 17:35:58 -0000 Subject: [linux-biz] (Brain of Stig) Early pre-Linus dinner (WEDNESDAY)... X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CALIFORNIA LOCAL... Linus Torvalds (of Linux fame...but you knew that) will be making a rare appearance before throngs of screaming hacker groupies tomorrow night and I'm going to be one of them. (Except for the screaming groupie part.) Would you like to join me for food before the 7pm meeting of the Silicon Valley Linux Users' Group? DINNER 5pm Andale Taqueria, Downtown Palo Alto 209 University (btwn Emerson & Ramona) Linus Speaks 7pm Gateway Conference Center, Building J, Cisco Systems 255 Tasman Dr in San Jose (near 237) http://www.svlug.org/meetings.html Two hours should be plenty of time to eat, talk, wander next door to Stacey's Bookstore to take a quick look at the new "Linux for Dummies" book, and still get there early enough to fit in the room (capacity 350). RSVP if you want me to know you're coming: by noon on Wednesday to stig-rsvp@hackvan.com after that, you call me on my cell phone if you have the number already Stig PS: For the few that don't know what I look like, see http://hackvan.com/pub/stig/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 4 03:28:18 1998 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:38:27 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Does Linux suck or does Linux rule? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Only the Electric Lichen knows for sure... http://electriclichen.com/linux/srom.html -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 4 08:21:12 1998 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 01:15:54 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com | 4. Death of marketing (2000) | Information technology prices fall enough for customers to | establish their own systems for comparing merchants. | Price searchers. Reputation servers. Micro product review | sites and independent purchase preference correlation search | engines. Sucks-Rules-O-Meters. Every man or woman his or her | own "Consumer Reports." Merchants abandon conventional | marketing; put budget into raising product quality or cutting | prices. I find that extremely improbable. In the middle ages, the peasants knew they had no idea what went on in the castle. Today, people think they know what goes on in the world, but they've been fed an illusion. I'm afraid that illusion will get more seamless over time. My reason: bullshit and confusion are far cheaper to make and sell than real products. They are powerful weapons against competition. Tell me, which long distance company or airline is cheapest? Do you expect this question to get easier or harder to answer in the future? The relationship of price to real costs can be obscured by pricing plans that change on each web click. The statistical sample size to analyze such plans can be enormous, and the samples may fall across competitors who have a disincentive to cooperate. Suppose a bank told every consumer depositor: You have poor credit, but the rest of our customers have great credit. What's wrong with you? Why should we loan you money? Accept 3% on your passbook savings or be cut off. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 4 21:29:12 1998 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:38 -0800 From: Don Marti To: Brian Bartholomew Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 01:15:54AM -0500, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > My reason: bullshit and confusion are far cheaper to make and sell > than real products. They are powerful weapons against competition. Do you know how much a good bullshitter makes? They don't come cheap. In any market where confusion is present, there is always a cost to the seller to create confusion, and a cost to the buyer or buyers who wish to see through it. With the growth of the attention economy[1] on the net, debunking will continue to become cheaper, as information technology prices drop, and more rewarding, as the number of net eyeballs, and the attention they can offer, grows. The bad news for marketing, and the reason it is doomed, is that the cost of creating confusion has already been driven down by ruthless competition and cannot be reduced much further. > Tell me, which long distance company or airline is cheapest? Do you > expect this question to get easier or harder to answer in the > future? Easier. My computer is getting better faster than their computers are getting better. Information technology in the customer's hands is the crossbow that will punch through marketing's armor like it was a can of Spam(R). Both the airline and long distance markets use discriminatory pricing. Discriminatory pricing, which sounds illegal but isn't, is a seller's strategy for getting more money from people who are willing to pay more, while charging lower prices to people who won't buy at a high price. Sellers who use discriminatory pricing can make all prices public, as airlines do, and base their price differences on factors such as time before purchase and whether or not you will stay over a Saturday. There are already services for finding the lowest price when prices are public. Examples include travel agencies and www.pricewatch.com. When discriminatory pricing is based on confusion -- the "charge more money to people who are not willing to spend time shopping for long distance service" strategy -- finding the best price costs the buyer some time. That best-price-finding time is, if I understand the attention economy theory, valuable attention. If I wanted to get that attention from you (see [1] for why I would want to do this), I could set up a web page to explain how I got a good deal on long distance service. The prices I get might not do you any good, though, since my long distance company uses confusing discriminatory pricing to give me a unique "calling plan." But if I got other people to contribute evaluations of _their_ long distance service, you would be more likely to find somebody who matches you closely enough that you would get the same discriminatory pricing, and thus answer your "which long distance is cheapest" question. There are two problems with this hypothetical long distance price exchange site. The first is that there's little or no reward for all those people who are supposed to type in their long distance usage and the price they get. They're giving me their time, but _I_ get all, or most of, the attention. With a few exceptions (one being manic overclockers: http://www.sysopt.com/ocsurv.cgi) people would have no reason to do this. The second problem is the time it would take you to find and evaluate my site in the first place. Even if it's item number 1 in your Alta Vista search for "best long distance price," you don't know that it's not bogus. It could be run by a long distance company under a false flag, or I could be getting paid under the table to make one company look good. These problems don't mean that the exchange of product evaluation for attention is a bad one. On the contrary, shoppers have a lot of attention to give, and evaluating a product is a cheap and sure way to get some attention, even for people who have no other "marketable" attention-getting skills. It's an attention economy exchange waiting to happen. A way to eliminate both problems and make it possible for people to "buy" attention for evaluating products and services would be to establish a social convention, such as meta tags, for two types of web content: (1) product or service reviews and (2) evaluations of the credibility of a reviewer. Search engines could take it from there, connecting potential buyers with current happy or unhappy customers and helping the exchange of attention for correct market information. And killing marketing. Linux is both an enabling technology for killing marketing and a product that will benefit greatly from its death. If this thread is getting off topic for a Linux business list, please mail me individually with either "shut up about marketing must die on linux-biz" or "please start a marketing must die list and put me on it." [1] Goldhaber, Michael H. "The Attention Economy and the Net" http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2_4/goldhaber/ Spam is a registered trademark of Hormel Foods Corporation. -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 5 04:01:56 1998 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 06:01:05 -0700 From: Jonathan Corbet Subject: [linux-biz] Interesting press X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Check out http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/tebbe/980302mt.htm This guy was very negative about the Netscape open source decision, but, seemingly as a result of the fallout from his column, he's come to be pretty positive about Linux. "I suggest that you take a serious look at Linux for your corporate infrastructure if you aren't using it already." He's looking for input from folks who use Linux in their business; it seems like maybe some folks on this list could fill him in a bit... [Now I've scooped tomorrow's Linux Weekly News (www.eklektix.com/lwn), but don't let that stop you from reading the rest of it...:-) ] jon ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 5 10:01:46 1998 From: linas@linas.org To: dmarti@electriclichen.com (Don Marti) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 03:16:44 -0600 (CST) Cc: bb@wv.com, linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text Subject: [linux-biz] marketing X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Don Marti said: > If this thread is > getting off topic for a Linux business list, please mail me > individually with either "shut up about marketing must die on > linux-biz" or "please start a marketing must die list and put me on > it." marketing is "biz". its not off-topic at all. If you're an enterpreneur, and want to figure out where things are going to be 1,2,5, 10 years down the line, you have to have an open mind to the weird shit that other people are insisting will happen. It may be wrong, but if its right ... what you don't know *can* kill you. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 5 21:05:10 1998 From: jeff.covey@pobox.com (jeff covey) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? X-Mailer: VM 6.37 under Emacs 19.34.1 .. hubub, hubub, HUBUB, hubub, hubub, hubub, HUBUB, hubub, hubub, hubub. Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:45 EST X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "Cary" == Cary B O'Brien writes: Cary> Anyone know of an X plugin for netscape? It would turn Cary> netscape into an x-server. Or a java implementation of X? Cary> (which would amount to roughly the same thing). http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ - -- | ,-~~-.___. jeff covey, mailto:jeff.covey@pobox.com | | / | ' \ http://pobox.com/~jeff.covey | |( ) 0 baltimore, maryland 410-669-4926 | | \_/-, ,----' | | ==== // classical guitar, midi sequencing, | | / \-'~; /~~~(O) music notation, linux! and more! | | / __/~| / | for a list of files available from me, | |=( _____| (_________| send me mail with "send index" as subject | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBNP7WhznaR8Cs0X0pAQH+aAP+Iaf2nSBP6AFVRbMzEd8VJ75nKeMQ4HHN I6wcItCN9JJpjBoBgz3bwOp2VLW0t4GZTwuzVyyxG9BotXWjVk1uLkra/Kxc/m8L ZIWNKwx08L5M1d/0lvD6/Tfr6/jzkI1EVu1EnflW0w9gyTylwnjbY943uBNF8Ldg AeUIalyZy+Q= =/NRg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- error reading fat record: try the skinny one? (y/n) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 5 21:05:08 1998 From: evt@texelsoft.com (Eric Van Tassell 1) To: "Don Marti" Cc: Subject: RE: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:28:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > wish to see through it. With the growth of the attention economy[1] > on the net, debunking will continue to become cheaper, as information > technology prices drop, and more rewarding, as the number of net > eyeballs, and the attention they can offer, grows. The bad news for > marketing, and the reason it is doomed, is that the cost of creating > confusion has already been driven down by ruthless competition and > cannot be reduced much further. You seem to fall prey to the fallacy that there is "one truth". Since there is not (ex: Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) there will always be confusion on all but trivial issues and even on trivial issues where the determinant is one's personal, group, or societal values. Additionaly, large masses of people are capable of behaving irrationaly for long periods of time(ex: Naziism, Mao's cultural revolution, and on and on). Are you old enough to have 5 years of history of making pronouncements about the inevitable future? Did you draw the inevitable conclusion or were you actually infallible? I think Linux is a fantastic tool and will have a vast impact but "kill marketing" - not a chance. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 5 21:05:50 1998 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:17:39 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Don Marti cc: Brian Bartholomew , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Don Marti wrote: > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 01:15:54AM -0500, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > > My reason: bullshit and confusion are far cheaper to make and sell > > than real products. They are powerful weapons against competition. > > Do you know how much a good bullshitter makes? They don't come cheap. Irrelevant. If they're good they benefit their employer more than themselves, and if they're confident they work on low base/high commission so there's little risk to the vendor (besides reputation). > In any market where confusion is present, there is always a cost to > the seller to create confusion, and a cost to the buyer or buyers who > wish to see through it. THAT'S THE POINT. If the confusion is successful, it will always be far easier for consumers to accept the BS than to see through it. > With the growth of the attention economy[1] on the net, debunking will > continue to become cheaper, While there is no question that debunking will be cheaper, so will spreading the BS in the first place. Furthermore, there is a lot of "debunking" that is just thinly-disguides marketing by competitors. It's hardly a clear issue. And remember that debunking is, by its nature, a reactive rather than pro-active effort. The BS will always come first. > as information technology prices drop, and more rewarding, as the number > of net eyeballs, and the attention they can offer, grows. This model may for for the Linux kernel but it won't necessarily work for evaluating, say, car additives. I have yet to be convinced that the Net serves any significant consumer services (outside of technology issues) that weren't provided before the Internet came along. Good, objective testing is expensive, and to be most objective cannot be subsidized by advertising. Who is going to provide that for free on the net? It's no accident that you have to pay Consumer Reports if you want anything of value from their web site. > The bad news for marketing, and the reason it is doomed, is that the > cost of creating confusion has already been driven down by ruthless > competition and cannot be reduced much further. This trend is yet to be demonstrated, let alone proven. I look at things like political campaigns and see a growth, not a decrease, in BS, negative marketing, and deliberate confusion. > > Tell me, which long distance company or airline is cheapest? Do you > > expect this question to get easier or harder to answer in the > > future? > Easier. My computer is getting better faster than their computers are > getting better. Then you likely speak for yourself. In most cases, the exploiters of technology are advancingat least as fast as its consumers IMO. > Information technology in the customer's hands is the > crossbow that will punch through marketing's armor like it was a can > of Spam(R). Yeah, right. > Both the airline and long distance markets use discriminatory pricing. > Discriminatory pricing, which sounds illegal but isn't, is a seller's > strategy for getting more money from people who are willing to pay > more, while charging lower prices to people who won't buy at a high > price. And you think the Internet will make this go away? HAH! If anything, the marketers will get even more sophisticated in their ability to predict who will buy at the higher price and who won't. Consumers will get smarter but so will the sellers. IMO the net will deepen the gap between the have and have-nots. The haves (in this case, the technology-savvy) will have greater-than-ever tools to cut through the BS. But to the rest of the public, the marketers will have more tools than ever to spread what they spread. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan Leibovitch * Xunil Computing * Brampton, Ontario, Canada * www.xunil.com Supporting Intel-based Unix and Linux since 1985 * Caldera & SCO authorized Windows NT: The Mister Hankey of operating systems ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 6 06:01:25 1998 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:19:17 -0800 From: Don Marti To: Evan Leibovitch Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 10:17:39AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Do you know how much a good bullshitter makes? They don't come cheap. > > Irrelevant. If they're good they benefit their employer more than > themselves, and if they're confident they work on low base/high commission > so there's little risk to the vendor (besides reputation). The best professional bullshitters don't do this. When have you seen a big ad agency tie its fees to the client's sales? Manufacturers pay for bullshit up front whether it works or not. > > With the growth of the attention economy[1] on the net, debunking will > > continue to become cheaper, > > While there is no question that debunking will be cheaper, so will > spreading the BS in the first place. Companies are saving money on spreading BS now, by moving from direct mail to the web. The cost of spreading BS will continue to fall until it reaches the point where the price of media is insignificant compated to the price of content. However, the cost of content cannot fall below the price a company or its agency must pay its "creatives" and the administrative costs of managing them and checking and approving their bullshit. On the other hand, the average cost to a customer of spreading information about a company is plummeting as the number of people on the net grows. And people write product reviews for "nothing" which makes no economic sense outside of the attention economy theory. Untested hypothesis: There is no floor for the cost of customer-created content. > This model may for for the Linux kernel but it won't necessarily > work for evaluating, say, car additives. Alta Vista gives 1679 hits for "Slick 50": http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=q&text=yes&what=web&fmt=&q=%22Slick+50%22 High on the list is this news release: http://www.ftc.gov/WWW/opa/9607/slick.htm -- "QUAKER STATE ADS FOR SLICK 50 ARE FALSE AND MISLEADING, FTC CHARGES" Deja News comes up with 21 hits for "STP Oil Treatment" among which is this article posted to rec.autos.tech by a guy named Jake who says he sold such "snake-oil concoctions" in an auto parts store for 5 years: http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=321780696&CONTEXT=889121290.181928007&hitnum=11 Untested hypothesis: For every product category, there is someone who cares about buying the right brand and wants attention. For some product categories, these people are not yet well-represented on the net. Right now, if I was seriously wondering whether to use Slick 50 or STP Oil Treatment it would take me a lot of time to manually check out the credibility of "ftc.gov" and the auto parts guy. But people could adopt a simple convention to mark an article as either a product review or a comment on another reviewer's credibility, making the content friendlier to shopping-focused search engines. Reviewers would have incentive to use this convention because it would get them more attention. > Good, objective testing is expensive, and to be most objective cannot be > subsidized by advertising. Objective? There is no objective content anywhere outside of /var/log. But I don't want an objective review of, let's say, a video card, even though it's possible to test one objectively. I want the subjective impressions of somebody whose other hardware is similar to mine and who runs the same programs I run. If I was selecting a video card, I would pay more attention to Eric S. Raymond's home hardware page: http://earthspace.net/~esr/hardware.html than to benchmark results certified by an expensive lab. > > The bad news for marketing, and the reason it is doomed, is that the > > cost of creating confusion has already been driven down by ruthless > > competition and cannot be reduced much further. > > This trend is yet to be demonstrated, let alone proven. I look at things > like political campaigns and see a growth, not a decrease, in BS, negative > marketing, and deliberate confusion. There is an increase in the _amount_ of BS. Not in the cost per unit delivered. Those political campaigns you mention are costing more and more every year, and turning out fewer and fewer voters. > > Both the airline and long distance markets use discriminatory pricing. > > Discriminatory pricing, which sounds illegal but isn't, is a seller's > > strategy for getting more money from people who are willing to pay > > more, while charging lower prices to people who won't buy at a high > > price. > > And you think the Internet will make this go away? HAH! If anything, > the marketers will get even more sophisticated in their ability to predict > who will buy at the higher price and who won't. Thereby creating more incentive for a way to work around them. If there were only a few sites using banner ads, there would be no "Internet Junkbuster." Remember, free software hackers are smarter than marketing people. To win attention and money, someone could create a proxy "shopping persona maker" to let people browse for prices as if they had a different user profile. > IMO the net will deepen the gap between the have and have-nots. Your "marketing will rule Earth" net, or my "marketing must die" net? -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 6 06:01:31 1998 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:46:06 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Good, objective testing is expensive, and to be most objective cannot be > subsidized by advertising. Who is going to provide that for free on the > net? It's no accident that you have to pay Consumer Reports if you want > anything of value from their web site. We don't want objective testing. We want good subjective opinions and that is where the net excels. In the past I only had a few technical aquaintances whose technical opinions were of interest to me. But on the net I can access dozens of opinions and analyses on any technical topic I happen to be interested in. If I take the time to sift out the bullshit then I have something of value that was not available tome before. Even if I have to spend a day or so analyzing the opinions that I retrieve from the net I am still way ahead of the game because before the net I basically had no source of info at all. -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 6 07:02:12 1998 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:30:34 -0800 From: Don Marti To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Subject: [linux-biz] [dmarti@electriclichen.com: Re: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 11:28:15AM -0500, Eric Van Tassell 1 wrote: > Are you old enough to have 5 years of history of making pronouncements > about the inevitable future? Did you draw the inevitable conclusion or were > you actually infallible? Please excuse me for not using enough "in my opinion"s, "IMHO"s, and other text diluents, and for saying "marketing" instead of "marketing as we know it." I feared I was already writing too much, so I said some things in more direct ways than is customary. -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 6 07:03:21 1998 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:29:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric D. Berg" To: jeff.covey@pobox.com (jeff covey) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com WebTermX from White Pine Software. I met one of their people on a plane last year, but lost his card...until I saw this thread, then magically, his card reappeared on my (horribly cluttered) desk at home. Check it out. Seems to be just what the doctor ordered....though is't not for Linux. http://www.wpine.com/webtermx/ -Eric. Eric Berg Linux rules. Sr. Web Engineer Sybase, Inc. http://support.sybase.com On Thu 5-March, jeff covey just HAD to say: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > >>>>> "Cary" == Cary B O'Brien writes: > > Cary> Anyone know of an X plugin for netscape? It would turn > Cary> netscape into an x-server. Or a java implementation of X? > Cary> (which would amount to roughly the same thing). > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 7 04:12:05 1998 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:36:25 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott D. Webster" To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: RE: [linux-biz] Linux versions of proprietary software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Eric Van Tassell 1 wrote: > You seem to fall prey to the fallacy that there is "one truth". Since there > is not (ex: Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) ... Ah, but the existance of more than one religion does not prove that there is more than one truth. It rather shows that there is more than one opinion about what the one truth might be. -- Scott D. Webster swebster@carroll.com Etc Services Voice: 201.385.7113 Linux / Unix Consulting Pager: 800.379.2402 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 7 04:13:56 1998 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:58:56 -0700 (MST) From: jkarns To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Business Discussion Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > > > Say I have one financial app, > > > and it is transfering money to another finacial app. Since its really > > > money, I really need to to really be reliably, securely, authenticatedly, > > > non-repudaiatedly delivered. > > > This is exactly what Tuxedo does. It supports multi-machine > > (nested?) transactions with (if you code everything right) roll-back. > > Plus reliable queuing. > > Hmm, I thought I read that tuxedo used MQSeries for the queueing. > > > As near as I can tell it runs on a stock Unix system and uses > > SysV IPC and normal networking to do all this. No kernel stuff > > beyond this seems to be required. > > Yeah, don't think any kernel stuff is required, other than some > guarentee that stuff has been flushed to disk in case of pwoer outage. > > > begin > > credit account a > > debit account b > > commit or rollback > > > > You'd need a big central machine, though. > > Well that's the point: > The typical use is to transfer money to account a at bank a on sql > server a in city a, from account b bank b in city b ... centralization > is fundamentally impossible, that's why the queueing is needed. Wouldn't the paradigm defining a distributed database encapsulate this? It would seem to me that it would be a requirement for any distributed database system worth its salt. Adabas D claims to be this. Any other Linux-hosted c/s RDBMS's claim to work as distributed db? ========================================================================= John Karns jkarns@ares.csd.net ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 7 07:01:21 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Business Discussion Group To: jkarns@ares.csd.net (jkarns) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:43:19 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that jkarns said: > > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > The typical use is to transfer money to account a at bank a on sql > > server a in city a, from account b bank b in city b ... centralization > > is fundamentally impossible, that's why the queueing is needed. > > Wouldn't the paradigm defining a distributed database encapsulate this? > It would seem to me that it would be a requirement for any distributed > database system worth its salt. Adabas D claims to be this. Any other > Linux-hosted c/s RDBMS's claim to work as distributed db? Well, I suppose ... But you can't convince every bank, store, warehouse etc. to convert to the same brand of database. So the problem of reliable communications must be solved in a database independent fashion. The other "gotcha" is that solving the general distributed database problem is very difficult. The algorithmically "correct" solution is to get a lock over geographical distances -- this requirement can degrade performance by factors of ten, a hundred, a thousand. So in fact, much of the distributed stuff is done with various tricks, to avoid the need for fast, real-time locks. Databases, and thier apis are optimized for organizing data and querying tables for records. Message queing needs neither of these features. Using a database for message queuing is like using a monkey wrench as a hammer -- yeah, it can sort-of work in a pinch, but that's not what monkey wrenches were designed to do. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 7 07:02:35 1998 Date: 7 Mar 1998 05:20:59 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Mozilla license commentary X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark Stone wrote: > > Has anybody looked at the draft of Netscape's proposed license for > Communicator? Comments? It's on line at: > http://www.mozilla.org/NPL/ What's at the URL above may change...these comments pertain to The Netscape Public License, version 0.90 Draft http://www.mozilla.org/NPL/LICENSE-0.90.html The license is generally much weaker than the GPL ("less anal") and I consider that to be a good thing. There is one important weakness, relative to the GPL that I would like to point out: NPL You must release all of your modifications to the publicly available source before you may distribute any derivative works (compiled binaries). GPL Same as above, except that when your product includes non-public code, you must package a linkable object file so that customers can freely upgrade the public portion of the code (all the stuff that comes from the internet). Now, this is relatively important hair-splitting. This gives vendors the right to charge new money for old work (their private contribution, not distributed as linkable object) just because they're the only ones that can build a new binary from the changes that come from the internet. While every customer of browserX is unlikely to upgrade their browserX by relinking against the net.mozilla, they could easily form a users' group to do the upgrade once and distribute it internally. Netscape seems entirely conscious of this weakness and comments on it: "Netscape does not wish to dictate the terms under which any such executables will be available." http://www.mozilla.org/NPL/annotations-0.90.html#Distribution_of_Executable_Versions The NPL (like the BSD license) also permits downstream vendors to distribute derivative works under more restrictive licenses to their customers. This is very un-GPL. Finally, the NPL gives Netscape greater access ("Unique rights as Initial Developer") to the code than other NPL licensees. I consider this acceptable. To recycle a cliche, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. http://www.mozilla.org/NPL/FAQ.html#13 There is also an informative FAQ online: http://www.mozilla.org/NPL/FAQ.html Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 7 10:00:53 1998 Date: 7 Mar 1998 05:37:43 -0000 To: linas@linas.org Cc: jkarns@ares.csd.net (jkarns), linux-biz@lege.com From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] META: Please use appropriate subjects X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Business Discussion Group linas@linas.org wrote: > > Databases, and thier apis are optimized for organizing data and querying > tables for records. Message queing needs neither of these features. > Using a database for message queuing is like using a monkey wrench as a > hammer -- yeah, it can sort-of work in a pinch, but that's not what > monkey wrenches were designed to do. PLEASE USE APPROPRIATE SUBJECTS. When a thread drifts from "discussion groups" to "two-phase commit message queueing and databases", it's generally good netiqette to change the subject on the thread. Thanks, Stig PS: More detailed rants that don't yet apply to the relatively minor sins on linux-biz are here: http://hackvan.com/pub/stig/rants/mailing-list-etiquette ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 7 10:03:33 1998 Date: 7 Mar 1998 07:12:20 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Anti-Marketing is "Culture Jamming" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you don't like marketing as it's currently practiced and you don't know about Adbusters, then you need to go out and find a copy. The idea is to unsell the product, to turn the incredible power of marketing against itself. - Kalle Lasn, http://www.adbusters.org Other readings that I consider relevant are: How to Drive Your Competition Crazy : Creating Disruption for Fun and Profit, by Guy Kawasaki, et al $10.36 Paperback / Published 1996 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0786881631/stigsbookpicksA/ Marketing Without Advertising, by Michael Phillips $15.20 Paperback, 240 pages / April 1, 1997 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0873373693/stigsbookpicksA/ Ethics and Manipulation in Advertising : Answering a Flawed Indictment, by Michael J. Phillips $55.00 Hardcover / July 1997 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=156720063X/stigsbookpicksA/ I have the Kawasaki book and it's both entertaining and informative. The Phillips stuff I've not yet had the time to look over, but the author comes highly recommended to me from a trusted source. Stig HackVän ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- From: stig@hackvan.com To: Brain of Stig CC: Otaku , 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org Subject: (Brain of Stig) Culture Jamming Date: 10 Nov 1997 08:30:42 -0000 Mailing-List: contact brain-help@hackvan.com; run by ezmlm Message-ID: <19971110083042.23890.qmail@hackvan.com> X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ ADBUSTERS has become perhaps of my favorite magazines... Entertaining and subversive: How can you top that? Stig - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "World War III is a guerrilla information war, with no division between military and civilian participation." - Marshall McLuhan http://www.adbusters.org/ - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEDIA MANIFESTO We will take on the archetypal mind polluters -- Marlboro, Budweiser, Benetton, Coke, McDonald's, Calvin Klein -- and beat them at their own game. We will uncool their billion dollar images with uncommercials on TV, subvertisements in magazines and anti-ads right next to theirs in the urban landscape. We will take control of the role that the tobacco, alcohol, fashion, cosmetics, food and automobile corporations play in our lives. We will hold their marketing strategies up to public scrutiny and set new agendas in their industries. We will culture jam the pop culture marketeers -- MTV, Time Warner, Sony -- and bring their image factories to a sudden, shuddering halt. On the rubble of the old media culture, we will build a new one with a non-commercial heart and soul. http://www.adbusters.org/Info/index.html - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Activism for the Third Millenium Be a Culture Jammer! The Media Foundation is looking for a few cutting edge heroes of our time -- teachers, artists, activists, culture jammers, neo-Luddites -- people who want to throw a monkey wrench into the corporate image factory and bring it to a sudden, grinding halt. Are you willing to dedicate some of your time, creativity, passion and resources to the task of building a new social activist movement for the information age? To become part of a worldwide network of Culture Jammers, click on the boxes by the ideas that pique your interest, fill out the rest of the form, and send it off using the button at the bottom of the page. In return, we'll endeavour to keep you informed of news and events as they happen, and will even help coordinate you with other like-minded malcontents. THIS IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY. Please choose carefully what you would like to be involved in: it is far more effective to dedicate yourself to doing one thing well than to dabble ineffectually with lots of things. http://www.adbusters.org/Info/adventure.html ------- end ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 7 13:03:48 1998 Date: 7 Mar 1998 11:15:22 -0000 To: Evan Leibovitch Cc: Don Marti , Brian Bartholomew , linux-biz@lege.com From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Marketing and Misinformation X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > With the growth of the attention economy[1] on the net, debunking will > > continue to become cheaper, debunking will become cheaper, perhaps, but there will always be too many clueless losers on the net driving SNR into the floor. Still, this sort of technology has promise... TBTF for 11/10/97: Blum Blum Shub T a s t y B i t s f r o m t h e T e c h n o l o g y F r o n t Timely news of the bellwethers in computer and communications technology that will affect electronic commerce -- since 1994 Your Host: Keith Dawson This issue: < http://www.tbtf.com/archive/11-10-97.html > ________________________________________________________________________ ..Talking back to Web sites The inventors of the Web wanted you to be able to annotate anyone's site. Now, thanks to the inventor of the mouse, you can The Foresight Institute, a research organization created by com- puting innovator Douglas Englebart, held its annual conference last week in Palo Alto. Foresight concentrates resources on topics in nanotechnology, but maintains ongoing projects related to hypertext and the World Wide Web -- see [22] for a discussion of the Insti- tute's Web Enhancement Project. Last Wednesday the Institute demon- strated "The Other Half of the Web," an approach to enable freeform community commentary on any Web page by anyone. An overview is available at [23]. At the center of this scheme for universal Web annotation is the Backlink Mediator [24], developed for the Foresight Institute by Ka-Ping Yee [25], [26]. He has placed the code in the public domain. To see how it works, visit TBTF via the Crit site [27]. You will receive in return an annotated version of the page. I have added an annotation in the "Tasty Bit of the Day" section by way of demonstration. You can do the same, if you'd like, and all future visitors (who enter via the crit.org portal) will see your annotations along with everybody else's. This technology demonstration made my jaw drop. Just as we were getting used to the personal publishing empowerment that the Web enables, here come a few smart people to turn the medium inside out, again. In fact the Foresight Institute is working to actualize on the Web the ideas of open collaboration that fired its earliest de- velopers (themselves inspired by the still earlier work of Engle- bart and Ted Nelson), but that didn't make the cut as the standards emerged from CERN The Backlink Mediator might be important on the public Internet -- if it catches on, if it becomes standard, if a sufficient infra- structure of annotation processors develops. It could also hasten the arrival on the Web of the "tragedy of the commons," which many of us will assert has already arrived at Usenet and is fast over- taking email. It is in the context of corporate intranets that standardized, proxy-based annotation of Web pages could be a clear winner. [22] http://foresight.org/WebEnhance/index.html [23] http://foresight.org/WebEnhance/Progress9711.html [24] http://crit.org/ [25] http://www.lfw.org/ping [26] http://foresight.org/WebEnhance/DemoPics.html [27] http://crit.org/http://www.tbtf.com/ > While there is no question that debunking will be cheaper, so will > spreading the BS in the first place. Furthermore, there is a lot of > "debunking" that is just thinly-disguides marketing by competitors. > It's hardly a clear issue. And remember that debunking is, by its nature, > a reactive rather than pro-active effort. The BS will always come first. Time to recycle more past traffic from Brain of Stig. Newsbrokers Up to 85% of the news you read is bought and paid for hy corporations eager to gain positive publicity. So says Dick Grove. And he should know, because he sells much of it. Grove is one of a disturbing new breed of media consultants: the news broker. For a fee, these clandestine spin doctors will "place" a story of your choosing in virtually any major publication in the US. Here's how it works. Say an automobile manufacturer wants to sway public opinion on a certain issue or get the word out on a new car they're about to launch. They contact Grove's story brokerage firm, Ink, Inc., and give him the particulars. Grove's staff (many of whom are former journalists and PR consultants) then swing into action calling reporters and editors across the country to encourage them to run the story. If a journalist acts on the "tip" and writes an article, Grove gets paid by the car company. A 300 word piece in The Wall Street Joumal is worth over $20,000. Grove says he's placed stories in The Economist, USA Today and The New York Times as well as on television stations like CNN and PBS. A former employee of Burston-Marsteller, Grove sees no problem with manipulating news agencies in this way. "We don't write the stories, we simply shine a light on what we feel will be good ideas for them to follow up on. - Steven Lyon, Adbusters Summer 1997 http://www.adbusters.org/ Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 7 13:08:00 1998 Date: 7 Mar 1998 11:24:36 -0000 To: Evan Leibovitch Cc: Don Marti , Brian Bartholomew , linux-biz@lege.com, "L. Peter Deutsch" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Price Differentials and Targetted Marketing X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > Both the airline and long distance markets use discriminatory pricing. > > Discriminatory pricing, which sounds illegal but isn't, is a seller's > > strategy for getting more money from people who are willing to pay > > more, while charging lower prices to people who won't buy at a high > > price. > > And you think the Internet will make this go away? HAH! If anything, > the marketers will get even more sophisticated in their ability to predict > who will buy at the higher price and who won't. Consumers will get smarter > but so will the sellers. Look to the cypherpunks for solutions here... There are friends of anonymity out there. But doesn't differential pricing serve to level the playing field? Is it not the sort of attitude that gets codified in much software licensing already? Only now we discriminate against business. So many important packages (PGP, SSH, mSQL, SOLID, for a few examples) permit private use without fee but not business use without fee. The AFPL (ghostscript's license for new versions) is somewhat like this. Is the offerring of different prices a way to gouge the well-funded or a way to be generous with the not-so-well-funded? > IMO the net will deepen the gap between the have and have-nots. The haves > (in this case, the technology-savvy) will have greater-than-ever tools to > cut through the BS. But to the rest of the public, the marketers will have > more tools than ever to spread what they spread. This depends upon what we build, doesn't it? As architects of infrastructure, we can set an example. We can lead. And the capabilities that we either build or omit from the infrastructure that we create will shape society. Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 7 14:01:49 1998 Date: 7 Mar 1998 11:38:02 -0000 To: Evan Leibovitch Cc: Don Marti , Brian Bartholomew , linux-biz@lege.com From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Buy Once or Buy Over And Over? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > as information technology prices drop, and more rewarding, as the number > > of net eyeballs, and the attention they can offer, grows. > > This model may for for the Linux kernel but it won't necessarily work for > evaluating, say, car additives. I have yet to be convinced that the Net > serves any significant consumer services (outside of technology issues) > that weren't provided before the Internet came along. > > Good, objective testing is expensive, and to be most objective cannot be > subsidized by advertising. Who is going to provide that for free on the > net? It's no accident that you have to pay Consumer Reports if you want > anything of value from their web site. > The key to making such information cheap is to buy it ONCE and not many times. Consumer purpose? The application of the net, here, is to provide a mechanism for cooperation and coordinated buying. Boycott and/or coordinated buying. Not 10000 individual ten-dollar purchases, but 5000 ten-dollar purchases lumped into one take-it-or-leave-it purchase. This kind of power can shift things in a very big way. How long until just-in-time funding could concievably replace venture capital, for instance? And is that investment payable in cash gouged from customers, or product? How long will it be until we can just collectively hire consultants to do work that is instantly released to the world for no fee whatsoever? http://devlinux.com/#hiring Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 7 14:03:15 1998 Date: 7 Mar 1998 11:44:12 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Nope, Marketing Ain't Dead... X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- From: qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca (Quote of the day) To: qotd@ensu.ucalgary.ca (Quote of the day mailing list) Subject: Quote of the day Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 03:50:03 -0700 Message-Id: <199803071050.DAA06327@survey.ensu.ucalgary.ca> X-Qotd-Incoming: 2538 'Earlier this year at a reporters roundtable in San Jose, Calif., Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates angrily disputed suggestions that his company was intentionally confusing the market and stealing ideas from an innovator. 'He said the idea was "beyond bizarre," that his company had "zero market share" in hand-held computing and that it had chosen the Palm PC name after doing original market research in which he was not involved. 'However, moments after Gates left the conference room, an assistant returned, saying she had come back to reclaim "Bill's Palm Pilot," which he had accidentally left behind.' - excerpt from a story on Palm Computing suing Microsoft over trademark infringement (The New York Times, Thursday 1998 March 5, Page C3 (Nat'l Ed.) http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/yr/mo/biztech/articles/05palm.html) Submitted by: "John S. Karabaic" Mar. 5, 1998 -------------------------------------------------------------- Send quotation submissions to qotd@ensu.ucalgary.ca Send list changes or requests to qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca ------- end ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 04:10:14 1998 Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:15:26 -0700 (MST) From: jkarns To: Geoff Marshall cc: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com >From the Sept '97 LinuxMall Newsletter (Success Stories) Linux Newsletter <--> Issue #11 <--> Date: September 29, 1997 From: Stephen Halliburton - steve@hsix.com - Halliburton Systems Inc I wish we could claim that our Linux systems had been running non-stop for the entire two years since we installed them, but we have actually had to reboot them twice in that period. Once was because we were moving all the equipment in the office and had to unplug the power cords to do so. The second time was to install a newer version of Linux; of course this needed a reboot. I can say, however, that we have *never* had any one of our five Linux systems shut down or need rebooting because of a problem with the system. We run several large commercial web sites here and also use the systems for program development. One of our web site customers asked that we move his site to a Windows NT server so it would be "compatible" with his other systems; we just laughed and left it right where it was. Ed: There was a time when the slogan went "No one was ever fired for buying IBM". Well today it seems to apply to Microsoft... And unfortunately I know a lot of people who were fired for buying IBM. I just visited the largest ISP in the Rocky Mountain region. They said that they will set up NT boxes instead of Linux boxes or Solaris boxes if a customer insists. They say that they warn the customer that NT takes twice to 4 times the administration, needs to be watched closer and fails much more often, and costs much more while not doing nearly as much. An amazing number of customers insist upon NT anyway, and so they get what they asked for: higher costs, less ability, and lower reliability. However the ISP refuses to state this publically for fear of Microsoft retaliation. Just how typical is this? Unfortunately, in my experience it seems to the the rule rather than the exception. ... ========================================================================= John Karns jkarns@ares.csd.net Support Americans for Computer Privacy (ACP), a broad new coalition opposed to encryption controls. See http://www.computerprivacy.org On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Geoff Marshall wrote: > The small enterprises have even less reason to experiment with free > software. I'm a biz oriented person with some windows programming > knowledge, planning to start an Internet business. I've spent the last 2 > or 3 weeks looking at 'free' software and reading the arguments on > various mailing lists. Having also been through the horrendous process > of trying to set up free BSD and Linux (on a basic, very ordinary PC) > I've reached the conclusion that the cost of running and supporting this > stuff far outweighs the apparent saving provided by 'free' software. The > efforts are laudable, but the total absence of profit motive leads to a > total absence of central direction hence erroneous priorities and > enormous duplication of effort, whilst the essentials for making the OS > truly successfull are simply ignored... as too boring perhaps ?? > > Regretably I'll probably end up making Mr Gates a bit richer and buy NT, > but that's much cheaper than climbing the Linux learning curve. > > Geoff Marshall ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 10:02:42 1998 Date: 9 Mar 1998 07:15:07 -0000 To: Brian Bartholomew Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Buy Once or Buy Over And Over? From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > See also http://www.transaction.net/money for other cool money ideas. > > If you like it, remember you heard it here first. Hey Brian, didn't you find that site through mine? ;-) http://devlinux.com/#money See also http://hackvan.com/pub/stig/articles/beyond-greed-and-scarcity Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 10:07:52 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 01:07:33 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Buy Once or Buy Over And Over? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > The key to making such information cheap is to buy it ONCE and not > many times. Yes. > How long will it be until we can just collectively hire consultants > to do work that is instantly released to the world for no fee > whatsoever? Yes. Below is a draft plan for paid development of free software. It features a non-free time period for a new program to gain converts, whose purchases lower the initial purchasers' price. Feedback is encouraged. ----- > [ wonders if the Netscape license will allow resale ] One problem is the owner-vendor can only be replaced by a GPL-type vendor if it becomes unresponsive. This is semi-acceptable for commercial software, but not for libre-donation-ware. Another problem is the effect of the license is dependent on the owner's business practices, which aren't covered by the license. I trust Aladdin and Sleepycat to give me good value in return for my code donations, but I don't trust Netscape. > [ It's impossible to predict how many copies a piece of software > will sell. Pricing to what people will pay is the only way. ] Not necessarily. Consider the following scheme to write software cheaply. Essentially, it's pervasive metering at purchase time instead of run time. 1,000 investors/purchasers who want a piece of software put up $1,000 to write that software. This $1 Mil is used to write software, which is distributed to the investor/purchasers. The distribution is in source, and you are only allowed to freely redistribute to other purchasers. Since the software is something useful like a Linux LaTeX-based word processor, other people want it too. New purchasers pay something less than $1,000, which is distributed to the original investors such that the investment of all purchasers is the same. When you get to a million purchasers, everyone's paid a dollar for the software. Price adapts to sales volume. At some point the payback may be tweaked to give the original big-lump investors a capped profit. It depends on whether a for-profit business or a consumer's co-op has better acceptance with customers, whether capital has to be purchased, and which business organization tends to persue cheap software development instead of profit. At some point the cost of the package becomes negligible, the software is GPL'ed, and the payments stop. All purchasers want major revisions and bug fixes, so these are funded under new instances of the same arrangement. Support can only be used by one person, and is funded by existing support models. If investors make a profit, it should only be after the user community becomes large enough to be self-sustaining. This means big enough to survive the loss of the original coders and then replace them. Until self-sustainability, all purchasers' financial interests are to sell more copies of the package to reduce their own purchase price. The package gets a free, motivated sales force. After sustainability, it's popular enough not to need a sales force. The other day I saw a developer selling a bridge to an island community in just this way. The town on the island made a law binding new cottages to repay the existing cottages. This scheme has gone over like lead balloon. Maybe worse, even a lead balloon makes some noise when it hits. I've heard several objections: It's not socialist enough, so it's morally evil. I disagree. It's not libre enough, so the customers I want won't be interested. Good point. But if someone with the reputation of Aladdin did it, it could fly. Transaction costs will overwhelm the payment scheme. I have two answers to that one: (1) a perl script that does debits and credits to VISA accounts once a month through a bank gateway. If the 5% or whatever VISA wants is too expensive, (2) Start up one of the electronic money schemes, probably offshore to reduce legal costs, that does debits and credits at web-hit prices. This "bank" shouldn't be a bank, shouldn't make loans, shouldn't create money, and shouldn't earn interest. Instead, to encourage cooperation between users and software investment it should charge the transaction fees back to users, who are then incented to throw their ecash back at software writers rather than letting it rot in a database. This is like www.e-gold.com, but cheaper because nobody's shipping or guarding gold bars. The transaction costs could be charged on each transaction, or a flat rate to each account once a month. Probably once per month, to not penalize using the service. Let this bank gateway to VISA, and pass the VISA overhead on to users to incent them not to churn it. See also http://www.transaction.net/money for other cool money ideas. If you like it, remember you heard it here first. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 10:08:04 1998 From: pehlee@tm.net.my To: "Linux Rides Space Shuttle" Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 07:00:26 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/168888 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Debian Rides Space Shuttle!!! X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Although the forwarded message below is debian-centric, I think it may help to promote Linux to your boss. After all, if Linux is qualified to take a ride on the space shuttle, it should be good enough for your boss to at least give Linux a try. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date 20 Feb 1997 012533 -0000 >From bruce@master.debian.org To debian-announce@lists.debian.org Subject Debian Rides Space Shuttle!!! Resent-Date Thu, 20 Feb 1997 050632 +0100 Resent-From debian-announce@lists.debian.org In this bulletin Debian Rides Space Shuttle Press Release ************************************************************************ Here is a press release on Debian's flying on the space shuttle. If you are friends with a member of the press, please pass this on to them with a request for them to write about it. We'll be promoting this to the major computer magazines, etc. Thanks Bruce Perens NEW COMPUTER OPERATING SYSTEM RIDES SPACE SHUTTLE Contact Bruce Perens 510-215-3502 A radically different new computer operating system is controlling an experiment on a Space Shuttle mission in late March. The experiment tests "hydroponics", a way of growing plants without soil that could eventually provide oxygen and food to astronauts. The computer controlling the experiment runs "Debian GNU/Linux", an operating system built by a group of 200 volunteer computer programmers who tele-collaborated over the Internet and never met each other. The system has many earthly uses - it can replace conventional operating systems such as Microsoft's "Windows 95" on personal computers. In a departure from conventional operating system practice, the volunteer group is giving the system and all of its source code away for free. Details are available on the group's web site http/www.debian.org/ . "Linux is the modern successor to the Unix operating system developed by Bell Labs during the 1970's", said Bruce Perens, leader of the Debian project. "A Finnish college student started Linux in the early 1990's, and was joined by others on the Internet who helped develop the system. We united Linux with free software contributed by other volunteers to make a complete system of 800 software packages. The result communicates on the Internet and includes, for free, many normally-expensive programs such as web servers, computer languages like Java, C, and C++, and many other programs". The space shuttle experiment will fly on mission STS-83 in late March and early April. Sebastian Kuzminsky is an engineer working on the computer that controls the experiment, which is operated by Biosciences Corporation. Kuzminsky said "The experiment studies the growth of plants in microgravity. It uses a miniature '486 PC-compatible computer, the Ampro CoreModule 4DXi. Debian GNU/Linux is loaded on this system in place of DOS or Windows. The fragility and power drain of disk drives ruled them out for this experiment, and a solid-state disk replacement from the SanDisk company is used in their place. The entire system uses only 10 watts", said Kuzminsky, as much electricity as a night-light. "The computer controls an experiment in hydroponics, or the growth of plants without soil", said Kuzminsky. "It controls water and light for the growing plants, and sends telemetry and video of the plants to the ground". Educators have also gravitated to the "Debian GNU/Linux" system. David Teague, a computer prof at Western Carolina University, says "most of the laboratories in our CS department run Debian. We use it to teach programming, operating systems, system administration, and web page design". Schools from the primary grades to college use the system to provide inexpensive Internet access to their students. "Most of us are computer professionals, but we produced Debian GNU/Linux as a hobby project", said Perens, who works as a graphics programmer for the company that made "Toy Story". "It started out three years ago as a loose collaboration of 60 people who had communicated on the Internet but had never met each other. We were dissatisfied with the operating systems available to us, which had not kept pace with the development of our computer hardware. We felt that the 'net had become so big that we could bring a group of volunteer programmers together on it to produce things that had only been made by huge companies up to now. We hoped that lots of people would put the system we created to serious use, but we couldn't advertise it except by making a web page and talking about it on the Internet. It didn't take long for us to pick up thousands of users, and for the volunteer staff to swell to 200 programmers from all over the world. People were taking Microsoft off of their systems to install Debian". Today the system has spawned its own non-profit organization, "Software in the Public Interest", to support further development. The members come from every continent in the world. "We're still interested in picking up more volunteers", said Perens, "and we always welcome new users". People interested in the system can learn about "Debian GNU/Linux" on the group's web site "www.debian.org". The web site provides free downloads of the entire system, and instructions on installing it. *********************************************************************** ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 13:08:54 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:13:25 +0100 (MET) From: Bernard Lang To: linux-biz@lege.com, pehlee@tm.net.my Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Debian Rides Space Shuttle!!! X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com if that is of use... I cllected a lot of similar info on: http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/hotlist/free/use/ a lot, but not all, is articles from Linux Journal. If you want to contribute ... feel free and for comparisons with other systems... http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/hotlist/free/bench/ Bernard.Lang@inria.fr ,_ /\o \o/ Tel +33 (1) 3963 5644 http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Fax +33 (1) 3963 5469 INRIA / B.P. 105 / 78153 Le Chesnay CEDEX / France Je n'exprime que mon opinion - I express only my opinion CAGED BEHIND WINDOWS or FREE WITH LINUX ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 19:00:56 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:25:37 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, jkarns wrote: > Ed: There was a time when the slogan went "No one was ever fired for > buying IBM". Well today it seems to apply to Microsoft... And > unfortunately I know a lot of people who were fired for buying IBM. I have had IT people tell me to my face "You know what they say, no-one ever got fired for buying Microsoft" and for that reason they simply buy everything MS. NT servers, Exchange for email, Outlook for mail client, Explorer for web browsing, Office for unproductivity apps, etc. -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 21:00:53 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:13:38 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Michael Dillon cc: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Michael Dillon wrote: > I have had IT people tell me to my face "You know what they say, no-one > ever got fired for buying Microsoft" and for that reason they simply buy > everything MS. NT servers, Exchange for email, Outlook for mail client, > Explorer for web browsing, Office for unproductivity apps, etc. If you had a concrete counter-example, of people who *did* get fired for choosing MS, would it make a difference? Think of all the poor sods at NEC responsible for the MIPS-based NT-only hardware that MS dropped support for... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan Leibovitch * Xunil Computing * Brampton, Ontario, Canada * www.xunil.com Supporting Intel-based Unix and Linux since 1985 * Caldera & SCO authorized Windows NT: The Mister Hankey of operating systems ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 21:02:53 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:11:33 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Buy Once or Buy Over And Over? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > See also http://www.transaction.net/money for other cool money ideas. > > If you like it, remember you heard it here first. | Hey Brian, didn't you find that site through mine? ;-) Is that dueling banjos I hear? Yes, I found the money site via hackvan. My credit statement referred to the whole payment scheme, not the money pointer. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I will put a "credits" section at the bottom of my scheme. Brian ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 21:02:56 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:34:50 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > I have had IT people tell me to my face "You know what they say, > no-one ever got fired for buying Microsoft" and for that reason they > simply buy everything MS. Yes. Sounds like Linux would have to be marketed to a higher organizational level in that company. Proven, documented cost savings are always a good place to start. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 21:03:01 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:20:05 -0800 From: Don Marti To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 08:25:37AM -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: > I have had IT people tell me to my face "You know what they say, no-one > ever got fired for buying Microsoft" and for that reason they simply buy > everything MS. As an investor, you can "fire" the whole damn company. Sell their stock, and recommend that other Linux users do the same. Half of corporate America's capital budget goes to information technology. Being a dumbass drone might not hurt your well-insulated excuse-making middle manager, but it will affect his company's earnings. When we have more public companies admitting to using Linux, it will be a nice niche for an investor newsletter. -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 21:03:06 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:28:08 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Michael Dillon wrote: > > > I have had IT people tell me to my face "You know what they say, no-one > > ever got fired for buying Microsoft" and for that reason they simply buy > > everything MS. NT servers, Exchange for email, Outlook for mail client, > > Explorer for web browsing, Office for unproductivity apps, etc. > > If you had a concrete counter-example, of people who *did* get fired for > choosing MS, would it make a difference? If you had a whole bunch of concrete examples of people who got fired for choosing MS then it would make a big impact. One or two examples isn't enough but a whole bunch of them will make it seem like a trend. At the very least it will show folks that they have to look at the business problem and install the best system that solves that problem no matter who the vendor is or what the technology. -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 9 22:01:21 1998 Date: 9 Mar 1998 19:30:28 -0000 To: Brian Bartholomew CC: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Mozilla license commentary X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [private thread reverting to public...] Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > > We haven't paid them for the code > > Then I'd rather buy it from them. Everybody cough up $10. > > > and as the first big and influential company to release "crown > > jewels", I'm more than happy to give them special considerations. > > Ah, but what has Netscape really given us? The "do free development > on stuff we own" plan is a bad deal. What it is a commercial product > with available source - and one that is explicitly not going to be > supported, just milked. Better than M$, but not exactly a Linux-type > donation. > Brian I don't think that this is a good trial balloon for many-to-few funding. If I had $10 million to share out, I wouldn't spend it all on Netscape. I would take Mozilla as offered and use the money in one of several ways: to get the 2.2 kernel out (there's a tcp bug in the way). to encourage the original gimp authors to work on The Gimp again. to hire some hackers to work on http://devlinux.com/ to clone the Be File System's database features for Linux. to work on WINE. The minor imbalance in the NPL is not that important. What is important is that Mozilla is about to become source-available. For now, that is sufficient. Netscape has no power to dictate the usage terms of derivative works. That is freedom enough. Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 10 06:00:53 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:45:26 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Machrone X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/opinion/0309/09mach.html -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 10 06:00:56 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:22:55 -0700 From: Evelyn Mitchell To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Stig_HackV=E4n?= Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Subject: [linux-biz] Re: BeOS X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > to clone the Be File System's database features for Linux. What specifically is this? Evelyn Mitchell efm@tummy.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 10 06:06:26 1998 Date: 10 Mar 1998 00:17:05 -0000 To: Evelyn Mitchell Cc: linux-biz@lege.com, Hans Reiser From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Re: BeOS File System X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Evelyn Mitchell wrote: > > > to clone the Be File System's database features for Linux. > > What specifically is this? Here's something that I sent to a local users' group mailing-list some time ago. It goes into BeFS and why I want it knocked off. [recycled mail follows] | Also, I think that a feature of the installfest ought to be old hardware | liquidation. I have some stuff that I would like to sell off as I'm sure | others do. And often the people getting help on their Linux installs are a | bit behind the hardware curve... Seems like a match, doesn't it? | | Finally, I'd like to announce some HARDWARE GRANTS to promote development | work. If you want to write code, I'll throw some hardware at you. If you | don't have the time to write code, but you'd like to see these efforts | undertaken, then please consider offerring up cash contribution to see that | these things get done and to further reward hacking well done... | | [...] | | ONE Bebox. dual 66mhz PPC603, 16m ram, 1g scsi disk, scsi cdrom, midi, | audio in/out, GeekPort, etc. This is a great hacker's machine. | Comes with CodeWarrior for Beos. | | Linux has been ported to the BeBox. | | I have a Bebox that I don't have time to play around with. BeOS has | some very good ideas going on that ought to be "appropriated" for Linux. | | Most prominently among these ideas is their simple-database-oriented | filesystem implementation. Somewhat like "extended attributes" on OS/2, | each file in the Be file system can have an set of arbitrary name/value | pairs attached to the file's inode. The values for each unique name are | indexed across the whole filesystem. | | What's this good for? Here's an example: mail is stored one file per | message. each file is tagged with name/value pairs for subject, | message-id, sender, recipient, etcetera. The file-system "tracker" (like | the MacOS finder) can then do live queries on these tags to organize | new and archived mail. | | Every time a file is downloaded from the net, the original URL is | attached to the file as an attribute so that you always know where it | came from. | | These tags are also used for package management...a much better design | than RPM's /var/lib/rpm/ database in my opinion. | | Other applications include version control, readwear, personal | annotations and so on. | | I want a new filesystem for Linux. A loadable kernel module would be | best, but some other approach might be acceptable. Possible tie-ins | might be the user-space NFS-oriented wvfs (http://www.wv.com/) and/or | the userfs filesystem prototyping package. | | Again, I'm prepared to help with the design and specification of the | APIs, the end-user functionality, and other matters that may arise. | | | IF YOU'RE INTERESTED in these projects, let me know and we'll work out the | details. | | To receive the hardware grants, write to me explaining what code you'd like | to write, when you think you'll get around to it, and where I can find some | samples of your programming. You should want to hack on these projects | because they're cool and because they need to get done. That's your reason | for doing them... I will choose the best qualified and most motivated | people who apply. | | Stig | | ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 10 06:06:40 1998 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:45:36 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: BeOS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Evelyn Mitchell wrote: > > to clone the Be File System's database features for Linux. > > What specifically is this? Read this: http://www.be.com/products/beos/beos_specs.html and this: http://www.be.com/products/beos_tour/index.html#anchor3154684 -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 10 06:20:24 1998 Date: 10 Mar 1998 00:27:37 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Fwd: [svlug] Nader asks Dell to ship computers with Linux [Hans Reiser] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- From: Hans Reiser To: svlug Subject: [svlug] Nader asks Dell to ship computers with Linux Sender: owner-svlug@svlug.org Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 15:48:49 -0800 Message-ID: <35047FE1.A7C79BBE@ricochet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk X-Alternate-URL: http://www.svlug.org X-Mascot: penguin X-OS: Linux svlug.svlug.org 2.0.30 #3 Thu Aug 14 14:47:34 PDT 1997 i486 unknown X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Thought it might interest this list. Hans Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 23:58:07 -0500 From: James Love To: Roundtable Subject: Nader/CPT ask OEMs to offer OS alternatives Message-ID: <350376DF.6B26BBC0@cptech.org> - ------------------------------------------------------------ Info-Policy-Notes | News from Consumer Project on Technology - ------------------------------------------------------------ March 9, 1998 - - Ralph Nader and CPT ask six PC makers (Dell, Gateway Micron, Compaq, HP and Packard Bell-NEC) to offer consumers the opportunity to buy computers with non-Microsoft operating systems pre installed. - - PC OEM's are told "Continue to offer customers the opportunity to buy a PC with MS Windows pre installed, but don't make this mandatory. Don't make this the only way that a customer can buy a personal computer." - - Nader and CPT tell the OEMs to consider such OS alternatives as Linux, BeOS, Caldera's Open Dos/Spider, Apple's Rhapsody, or other OS options, for "customers who are willing to try and who want to try alternatives." - - The Nader/CPT letters says the failure of OEMs to offer choices for an OS is a large entry barrier for Microsoft competitors. "There are many benefits to the consumer when the OEM ships a computer with an OS already installed. Among other things, the consumer expects that the hardware will be a feasible configuration for the OS. The ease of initial setup is also an important consideration for many customers." - - Nader and CPT wrote the OEMs after learning that Dell and other OEMs were reluctant to offer a Linux client PC on the grounds that it would harm the OEM's relationship with Microsoft. CPT believes other OS alternatives, including those in development, such as BeOS or Rhapsody, are now more appealing to consumers, because the growth of open Internet standards for publishing and transporting information, and the development of cross platform programing platforms like Java, make data [and users} "less a prisoner to a legacy OS." - - Letters were sent to: Steven R. Appleton, Chairman, Chief Executive Officer and President Micron Technology, Inc., Michael Dell, the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Dell Computer Corporation. Eckhard Pfeiffer, President and Chief Executive Officer, Compaq Computer Corporation, Beny Alagem, President and Chief Executive Officer, Packard Bell NEC, Theodore W. Waitt, Chairman and CEO, Gateway 2000, Lewis E. Platt, Chairman of the Board, President and Chief Executive Officer, Hewlett-Packard Company. - - HTML versions of the letters are available from CPT's Microsoft Antitrust page, at: http://www.essential.org/antitrust/microsoft/microsoft.html The attached is a copy of the letter sent to Michael Dell. Jamie Love , 202.387.8030 - -------------- Ralph Nader P.O. Box 19312, Washington, DC 20036 Ralph@essential.org James Love Consumer Project on Technology P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036 http://www.cptech.org | 202.387.8030 |love@cptech.org March 9, 1998 Michael Dell Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Dell Computer Corporation One Dell Way Round Rock, TX 78682 Fax 512 728 8366 Dear Mr. Dell: We are writing to make a simple request -- offer your customers choices. Give them the option of buying a PC computer without Microsoft Windows. Continue to offer customers the opportunity to buy a PC with MS Windows pre-installed, but don’t make this mandatory. Don’t make this the only way that a customer can buy a personal computer. Today there exist several alternative operating systems, and there are customers who are willing to try and who want to try alternatives. As you know, there are many benefits to the consumer when the OEM ships a computer with an OS already installed. Among other things, the consumer expects that the hardware will be a feasible configuration for the OS. The ease of initial setup is also an important consideration for many customers. We ask that you offer the option of at least some alternative to the Windows OS. Alternatives do exist which should be available to consumers. For example, there is clearly a growing interest in the Linux platform. It is our understanding that major OEMs have rejected requests to offer PCs pre-loaded with Linux, even by mail order. This is a very large barrier for this increasingly popular alternative. There are other alternatives as well. Soon the highly reviewed BeOS will debut for the Intel platform. Other OS alternatives are or will be available for this hardware platform, including Caldera’s Open Dos/ Spider technology or Apple’s Rhapsody. Yet another alternative to consider are dual boot machines, that would run Window plus another OS. This is becoming far more appealing as computers ship with large disk drives. With a dual boot option, which works with off the shelf software, consumers could experiment, and have the best of both worlds. There is much talk about consumers having chosen Microsoft’s OS, but if consumers can only buy computers with Windows pre-installed, competition clearly suffers. We believe consumers would benefit from more OS competition. Many of the alternatives to Windows are far more open systems, are far more fault tolerant, and require less hardware resources. The rise of the Internet has created an environment whereby consumers can easily exchange information using standard Internet protocols and standards, such as ftp, Internet email or HTML. The increasing use of Java makes cross platform program development easier. These developments in technology make alternative OSs more attractive to consumers, since data is less a prisoner to a legacy OS. While Microsoft has been accused of trying to destroy the Internet’s system of open standards, and Java’s cross platform nature, this hasn’t occurred yet. With more competition in the PC OS market, the entire Internet system, which is based upon interoperability, is more likely to grow and prosper. Please let us know your firm’s plans to offer consumers a choice for an OS. Sincerely, /s/ Ralph Nader /s/ James Love - ------------------------------------------------------------------ INFORMATION POLICY NOTES is a newsletter sponsored by the Consumer Project on Technology (http://www.cptech.org, 202.387.8030, fax 202.234.5127). Archives of Info-Policy-Notes are available from http://www.essential.org/listproc/info-policy-notes/ Subscription requests to listproc@cptech.org with the message: subscribe info-policy-notes Jane Doe - ------------------------------------------------------------------ - -- echo "unsubscribe svlug" | mail majordomo@svlug.org ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ to unsubscribe ------- end ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 10 06:20:25 1998 From: "[PP] Jose C. Lacal" To: Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 21:14:06 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [linux-biz] Fw: Nader/CPT ask OEMs to offer OS alternatives X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI. [PP] Jose C. Lacal, Chief Vision Officer pepe@antequera.com Antequera Red (Oaxaca, Mexico) - first ISP in SE Mexico "God is dead." - F. Nietzche "I've never grown up, but I'll never stop growing." - A. C. Clarke Read about some of my ideas: http://home.antequera.com/~pepe ---------- > From: James Love > To: Multiple recipients of list INFO-POLICY-NOTES > Subject: Nader/CPT ask OEMs to offer OS alternatives > Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 00:01 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Info-Policy-Notes | News from Consumer Project on Technology > ------------------------------------------------------------ > March 9, 1998 > > - Ralph Nader and CPT ask six PC makers (Dell, Gateway > Micron, Compaq, HP and Packard Bell-NEC) to offer > consumers the opportunity to buy computers with > non-Microsoft operating systems pre installed. > > - PC OEM's are told "Continue to offer customers the > opportunity to buy a PC with MS Windows pre installed, > but don't make this mandatory. Don't make this the > only way that a customer can buy a personal computer." > > - Nader and CPT tell the OEMs to consider such OS > alternatives as Linux, BeOS, Caldera's Open Dos/Spider, > Apple's Rhapsody, or other OS options, for "customers > who are willing to try and who want to try alternatives." > > - The Nader/CPT letters says the failure of OEMs to offer > choices for an OS is a large entry barrier for Microsoft > competitors. "There are many benefits to the consumer > when the OEM ships a computer with an OS already installed. > Among other things, the consumer expects that the hardware > will be a feasible configuration for the OS. The ease of > initial setup is also an important consideration for many > customers." > > - Nader and CPT wrote the OEMs after learning that Dell > and other OEMs were reluctant to offer a Linux client > PC on the grounds that it would harm the OEM's relationship > with Microsoft. CPT believes other OS alternatives, > including those in development, such as BeOS or Rhapsody, > are now more appealing to consumers, because the growth > of open Internet standards for publishing and transporting > information, and the development of cross platform > programing platforms like Java, make data [and users} > "less a prisoner to a legacy OS." > > - Letters were sent to: Steven R. Appleton, Chairman, Chief > Executive Officer and President Micron Technology, Inc., > Michael Dell, the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer > of Dell Computer Corporation. Eckhard Pfeiffer, President > and Chief Executive Officer, Compaq Computer Corporation, > Beny Alagem, President and Chief Executive Officer, > Packard Bell NEC, Theodore W. Waitt, Chairman and CEO, > Gateway 2000, Lewis E. Platt, Chairman of the Board, President > and Chief Executive Officer, Hewlett-Packard Company. > > - HTML versions of the letters are available from CPT's Microsoft > Antitrust page, at: > http://www.essential.org/antitrust/microsoft/microsoft.html > > The attached is a copy of the letter sent to Michael Dell. > > Jamie Love , 202.387.8030 > > -------------- > > > Ralph Nader > P.O. Box 19312, Washington, DC 20036 > Ralph@essential.org > > James Love > Consumer Project on Technology > P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036 > http://www.cptech.org | 202.387.8030 |love@cptech.org > > March 9, 1998 > > Michael Dell > Chairman and Chief Executive Officer > Dell Computer Corporation > One Dell Way > Round Rock, TX 78682 > Fax 512 728 8366 > Dear Mr. Dell: > > We are writing to make a simple request -- offer your customers > choices. Give them the option of buying a PC computer without Microsoft > Windows. Continue to offer customers the opportunity to buy a PC with > MS Windows pre-installed, but don’t make this mandatory. Don’t make > this the only way that a customer can buy a personal computer. > > Today there exist several alternative operating systems, and there are > customers who are willing to try and who want to try alternatives. > > As you know, there are many benefits to the consumer when the OEM ships > a computer with an OS already installed. Among other things, the > consumer expects that the hardware will be a feasible configuration for > the OS. The ease of initial setup is also an important consideration > for many customers. > > We ask that you offer the option of at least some alternative to the > Windows OS. Alternatives do exist which should be available to > consumers. For example, there is clearly a growing interest in the > Linux platform. It is our understanding that major OEMs have rejected > requests to offer PCs pre-loaded with Linux, even by mail order. This > is a very large barrier for this increasingly popular alternative. > There are other alternatives as well. Soon the highly reviewed BeOS > will debut for the Intel platform. Other OS alternatives are or will be > available for this hardware platform, including Caldera’s Open Dos/ > Spider technology or Apple’s Rhapsody. > > Yet another alternative to consider are dual boot machines, that would > run Window plus another OS. This is becoming far more appealing as > computers ship with large disk drives. With a dual boot option, which > works with off the shelf software, consumers could experiment, and have > the best of both worlds. > > There is much talk about consumers having chosen Microsoft’s OS, but if > consumers can only buy computers with Windows pre-installed, competition > clearly suffers. > > We believe consumers would benefit from more OS competition. Many of > the alternatives to Windows are far more open systems, are far more > fault tolerant, and require less hardware resources. The rise of the > Internet has created an environment whereby consumers can easily > exchange information using standard Internet protocols and standards, > such as ftp, Internet email or HTML. The increasing use of Java makes > cross platform program development easier. These developments in > technology make alternative OSs more attractive to consumers, since data > is less a prisoner to a legacy OS. While Microsoft has been accused of > trying to destroy the Internet’s system of open standards, and Java’s > cross platform nature, this hasn’t occurred yet. With more competition > in the PC OS market, the entire Internet system, which is based upon > interoperability, is more likely to grow and prosper. > > Please let us know your firm’s plans to offer consumers a choice for an > OS. > > Sincerely, > > /s/ > Ralph Nader > > /s/ > > James Love > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > INFORMATION POLICY NOTES is a newsletter sponsored by the Consumer > Project on Technology (http://www.cptech.org, 202.387.8030, fax > 202.234.5127). Archives of Info-Policy-Notes are available from > http://www.essential.org/listproc/info-policy-notes/ > Subscription requests to listproc@cptech.org with the message: > subscribe info-policy-notes Jane Doe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 10 16:02:56 1998 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:30:05 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Stutz To: linux-biz@lege.com X-URL: http://dsl.org/m/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Bill Gates mentions Linux (fwd) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:57:01 -0800 From: Dan Kohn To: Fork Subject: Bill Gates mentions Linux You now have to pay to get access to Slate, and it remains a fantastic value at only $19.95. I believe this is Bill's first public mention of Linux. - dan http://www.slate.com/Code/DDD/DDD.asp?file=billg&iMsg=4 People tell me the part where Barksdale polled the audience and asked only the PC users to raise their hands and then drop them if they use any Microsoft software was the best theater of the hearing. A video bite is even better than a sound bite and this was a strong video bite. If I had been smart about it I would have asked them to indicate if any of them have to pay Microsoft anything in the future unless we come up with a great new version of Windows. In other words, Microsoft gets no revenue except for innovation that goes so far beyond what they already have that it's worth the trouble to switch. I should have asked why they didn't choose LINUX or OS/2 or Macintosh--was it because of some capacity restriction or simply because they thought Windows with all the applications we have evangelized is the best choice. The same poll could have been done at one time for WordPerfect or Novell Netware or dozens of other technology products that are no longer popular. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 10 18:05:30 1998 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:07:53 +0100 (MET) From: Bernard Lang To: linux-biz@lege.com, stutz@dsl.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Bill Gates mentions Linux (fwd) Cc: Bernard.Lang@inria.fr X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com -------- From: Michael Stutz You now have to pay to get access to Slate, and it remains a fantastic value at only $19.95. -------- and if you subscribe you get a gift, either an umbrella, or the new Belgian encyclopedia , in both Flemish and French, called Microsoft Entarta (I am not sure what the relation is between the 2 gifts) Bernard Lang Bernard.Lang@inria.fr ,_ /\o \o/ Tel +33 (1) 3963 5644 http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Fax +33 (1) 3963 5469 INRIA / B.P. 105 / 78153 Le Chesnay CEDEX / France Je n'exprime que mon opinion - I express only my opinion CAGED BEHIND WINDOWS or FREE WITH LINUX ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 10 21:07:35 1998 Date: 10 Mar 1998 18:57:59 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Fwd: [svlug] SCO to push into the "Lucrative Enterprise Market" [Chris DiBona] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- From: Chris DiBona To: svlug@svlug.org Subject: [svlug] SCO to push into the "Lucrative Enterprise Market" Sender: owner-svlug@svlug.org Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:17:54 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: chris@spider.precognitive.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk X-Alternate-URL: http://www.svlug.org X-Mascot: penguin X-OS: Linux svlug.svlug.org 2.0.30 #3 Thu Aug 14 14:47:34 PDT 1997 i486 unknown Hi all... for those of you who don't know, when you hear something like the subject above, the company basically is giving up on the lower end of the market. - --- SCO to chase more lucrative markets with UnixWare PALO ALTO, Calif. (Reuters) - Santa Cruz Operation today will unveil a new version of its UnixWare operating system that is designed to appeal to buyers of powerful server computers for mid-sized businesses. The new version, dubbed UnixWare 7.0, can tap the power of Intel's upcoming Merced microprocessor. With the power of that chip, Santa Cruz Operation's software can manage the business information loads of medium-sized companies or large departments, markets where it cannot currently compete, said Doug Michels, the company's chief technical officer. "Now we can make a slow, steady push into the enterprise," Michels said. "We've never been able to go there because Intel couldn't go there." Santa Cruz Operation, better known as SCO, writes operating systems based on the Unix software standard. Its products manage the basic functions of computers and serve as the foundation for other software, like word processing, financial analysis and engineering programs. Until now, SCO's specialty was writing Unix software for desktop PCs. Because of the limitations of Intel's microprocessors, it could not enter the more lucrative market of writing software for servers, the powerful computers that manage the flow of traffic through big computer networks. Michels said he expects a Merced-based computer running UnixWare 7.0 to be able to compete with Unix machines costing much more. As the demand for Intel-based servers grows, SCO expects to gain business at the expense of vendors like Sun Microsystems, Hewlett-Packard and others, Michels said. In February, a group of server vendors including Compaq Computer and International Business Machines beef up its Unix software. Compaq, IBM, Data General, Unisys and several other computer makers will endorse UnixWare 7.0 as the standard Unix operating system for Intel-based computers today, SCO said. - -- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #!/bin/perl -sp0777i To: Stig HackVän cc: "What's all this Linux Business?" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] SCO to push into the "Lucrative Enterprise Market" [Chris DiBona] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 10 Mar 1998, Stig HackVän wrote: > Subject: [svlug] SCO to push into the "Lucrative Enterprise Market" > Hi all... > > for those of you who don't know, when you hear something like the subject > above, the company basically is giving up on the lower end of the market. Well hell, how low do you want to go? They gave up on the desktop years ago. They don't support low-end hardware, and offer very little support for multimedia to this day. - Many happy Xenix users went to Linux rather than switch to OpenServer - Many happy OpenServer users will probably go to Linux rather than switch to UnixWare I was at the launch -- today -- of UnixWare 7. It has some very, very nice features, such as the ability to handle a single file a terabyte in size, or have redundant SCSI hosts drive the same bus devices. These features come a a price, mostly in the $1-5K range. The cost will be a no-brainer to someone spending $50-100K on the hardware; but you're right, there's not much new in UnixWare 7 specifically to appeal to the SCO small business segment now served mainly by OpenServer. I still believe the two products are complementary, as Linux still has a way to go to catch up to UW in many of the large system, big-iron features. For smaller systems, though, you bet there's a LARGE opportunity for Linux. There's good reason for SCO to be going more into the enterprise, since that's also where it's less prone to attack by NT. NT is also hitting hard at SCO in small systems -- worse than Linux is -- but can't touch it in corporate MIS. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan Leibovitch * Xunil Computing * Brampton, Ontario, Canada * www.xunil.com Supporting Intel-based Unix and Linux since 1985 * Caldera & SCO authorized Windows NT: The Mister Hankey of operating systems ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 07:01:38 1998 From: pehlee@tm.net.my To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 04:53:32 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/168888 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Y2K X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Someone asked me a question that I can't answer, so here goes: How Linux copes with the Y2K problem? I know this looks like a no-brainer. But then, is there an answer? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 10:08:00 1998 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:02:52 +0100 (MET) From: Bernard Lang To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Linux is not Unix (maybe Stallman was right :-) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com According to IDC Corp, Linux is not Unix: Figures from IDC Corp say that sales of Intel-based workstations running Windows NT increased 80% in 1997, while Unix sales declined 7%. for a contrasted view of this issue see: http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/hotlist/free/use/index.html#rh97estim info from Computergram Bernard.Lang@inria.fr ,_ /\o \o/ Tel +33 (1) 3963 5644 http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Fax +33 (1) 3963 5469 INRIA / B.P. 105 / 78153 Le Chesnay CEDEX / France Je n'exprime que mon opinion - I express only my opinion CAGED BEHIND WINDOWS or FREE WITH LINUX ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 10:08:02 1998 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:21:58 -0800 From: Rob Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: pehlee@tm.net.my Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Y2K X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com >>>>> On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 04:53:32 GMT, pehlee@tm.net.my said: pehlee> Someone asked me a question that I can't answer, so here goes: pehlee> How Linux copes with the Y2K problem? pehlee> I know this looks like a no-brainer. But then, is there an pehlee> answer? AFAIK, the problem with un*x is not with the year 2000, but the year 2038. check www.sun.com, or was that www.sco.com, and they have a y2k FAQ on there somewhere... it talks about how the OS itself has a problem with the year 2038 being the big bad year, because all unices use 0 0 1970 (could be 0 0 1900) as their start time, and the time structure rolls over in 2038, not 2000. of course, this does not address any applications which use 2 bytes of data for their year field.... rob ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 13:02:42 1998 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:31:33 +0200 (SAT) From: Evan Summers To: bernard.lang@inria.fr cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Linux Business Discussion Group X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/hotlist/free/use/index.html#rh97estim By the way, we have a large Linux installation of approximately 4000 machines, installed in 900 sites, which we maintain remotely, for a Group of retail chains. Typically each site has one Linux server, and 5 diskless Linux PCs (booting Linux via bootROMs from the server). All this client's central servers also run Linux of course! Are there any other similarly sized commercial installations out there? Kind regards Evan ______________________Evan Summers PhD * New Product Development Manager ________________Universal Computer Services * Johannesburg, South Africa ____________ebs@ucs.co.za * telephone +27 11 339-6111 * http://ucs.co.za ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 13:03:20 1998 Date: 11 Mar 1998 08:44:57 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" CC: Joel Dubiner , cbbrowne@hex.net, Hans Reiser , Daevid Vincent , David Sifry , Arthur Tyde , Chris DiBona From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Crush Microsoft (yet another site...but we have the kick-ass name) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A friend of mine has been grabbing domain names furiously. Amongst Joel's new crop of domains is one of interest to the Linux community: http://web.crushmicrosoft.com/ There's not much there at this point, except for a bunch of links to other sites, but it's up now. And it has a REALLY COOL animated Bill head-crush logo. So, if you want to do some work on the page or if you have any suggestions... Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 13:12:21 1998 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:21:16 +0100 (MET) From: Bernard Lang To: bernard.lang@inria.fr, evan@sr.co.za Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Your company X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com --------------------------------------- By the way, we have a large Linux installation of approximately 4000 machines, installed in 900 sites, which we maintain remotely, for a Group of retail chains. Typically each site has one Linux server, and 5 diskless Linux PCs (booting Linux via bootROMs from the server). All this client's central servers also run Linux of course! --------------------------------------- Can you tell me more ... is there a document describing this How was it decided ... sounds like a great article for linux-journal but I am organizing a Conference on march 20th about economic issues of free software (which seems to be attracting polotical attention), and all significant examples, especially of that magnitude are welcome. Cordialement Bernard P.S. I know all examples that appeared in LJ Bernard.Lang@inria.fr ,_ /\o \o/ Tel +33 (1) 3963 5644 http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Fax +33 (1) 3963 5469 INRIA / B.P. 105 / 78153 Le Chesnay CEDEX / France Je n'exprime que mon opinion - I express only my opinion CAGED BEHIND WINDOWS or FREE WITH LINUX ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 13:12:51 1998 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:16:46 +0200 (SAT) From: Evan Summers To: Bernard Lang cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Your company X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Linux is used exclusively by all these chains for their mission-critical > transaction processing systems, including in the central envirnoment and > warehouse/distribution centers, right down to in-store servers and > point-of-sale terminals as I've mentioned. Probably I should add that we have chains that have been running exclusively on Linux since 1995, with the others coming on-stream at various intevals since then. In fact, the newer ones have stuck with Linux precisely because the earlier chains (led by a first chain of 150 stores, deployed September 1995) have been running so successfully with Linux. 800 stores for another client deployed before Linux was a twinkle in Linus' eye, are using SCO, and we compare our experiences with Linux to those of the sites running SCO. Based on our experiences, we would recommend Linux even if it cost more than SCO and NT... Something else I should add is that our application is written in our own 4GL, and porting the application from SCO to Linux was trivial, since it required porting our 4GL runtime engine, which is in C. Kind regards Evan ______________________Evan Summers PhD * New Product Development Manager ________________Universal Computer Services * Johannesburg, South Africa ____________ebs@ucs.co.za * telephone +27 11 339-6111 * http://ucs.co.za ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 13:14:52 1998 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:05:09 +0200 (SAT) From: Evan Summers To: Bernard Lang cc: linux-biz@lege.com, Alex Harin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Your company X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Can you tell me more ... is there a document describing this > How was it decided ... > sounds like a great article for linux-journal Yes, we are due to write an article on this installation for Linux Journal's "Linux means business", but time has been a problem, but hopefully I'll get down to it in May. > but I am organizing a Conference on march 20th about economic > issues of free software (which seems to be attracting polotical > attention), and all significant examples, especially of that magnitude We're off to JavaOne in SF next week, and there's no time for any articles right now, but I can elaborate a bit, and offer myself as a reference on this installation. This client is a retail group of companies with a number of retail chains in furniture (3 chains, approximately 560 stores in total), fashion (2 chains, 365 stores) and building supplies (1 chain, 80 stores), approximately 1000 stores and 6,000 users. All stores have Linux server (Intel-based) and on average 5 diskless PCs booting Linux via bootROMs off the server, for cashiers, debtors' clerks, etcetera. The in-store servers have a modem for comms, where we support UUCP and demand-dial PPP. Linux is used exclusively by all these chains for their mission-critical transaction processing systems, including in the central envirnoment and warehouse/distribution centers, right down to in-store servers and point-of-sale terminals as I've mentioned. An interesting point is that if SCO was used, the client really would have been forced to opt for character-based terminals (because of cost of licenses per CPU), whereas Linux gave them the option of the diskless PCs, i.e. Network Computers, which will afford them flexibility in future. Windows was not even an option because all software support is provided by ourselves (remotely via dialup comms), and using Windows would have made remote support an impossible task. Besides these issues, Linux realised a cost saving for the client, which is significant since 4000 licenses otherwise would have been required. However, the main reason for our proposing Linux in the first place, is that we find that we are able to offer the client excellent support for Linux, more so than if we were liasing with SCO or Microsoft to resolve problems for instance. Where we can't fix problems ourselves in a day, and have consulted the Linux community, problems are resolved in a matter of hours, not weeks... Kind regards Evan ______________________Evan Summers PhD * New Product Development Manager ________________Universal Computer Services * Johannesburg, South Africa ____________ebs@ucs.co.za * telephone +27 11 339-6111 * http://ucs.co.za ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 14:06:11 1998 From: Roger Hardwicke To: "'rob@cisco.com'" , "pehlee@tm.net.my" Cc: "linux-biz@lege.com" Subject: RE: [linux-biz] Y2K Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:18:48 -0500 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com This is a problem with all 32-bit Unix systems. Time is measured in seconds since midnight GMT, January 1, 1970. Roll-over occurs in 2038. 64-bit Unix systems fix this problem by adding more bits (the roll-over time is pushed off into the year umpteen-billion). I believe Linux 2.2 will be 64-bit? If so, then the year 2038 problem IS SOLVED ALREADY. Roger -----Original Message----- From: Rob Walker [SMTP:rob@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 2:22 AM To: pehlee@tm.net.my Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Y2K >>>>> On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 04:53:32 GMT, pehlee@tm.net.my said: pehlee> Someone asked me a question that I can't answer, so here goes: pehlee> How Linux copes with the Y2K problem? pehlee> I know this looks like a no-brainer. But then, is there an pehlee> answer? AFAIK, the problem with un*x is not with the year 2000, but the year 2038. check www.sun.com, or was that www.sco.com, and they have a y2k FAQ on there somewhere... it talks about how the OS itself has a problem with the year 2038 being the big bad year, because all unices use 0 0 1970 (could be 0 0 1900) as their start time, and the time structure rolls over in 2038, not 2000. of course, this does not address any applications which use 2 bytes of data for their year field.... rob ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 17:01:49 1998 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:06:03 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: pehlee@tm.net.my cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Y2K MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 pehlee@tm.net.my wrote: > Someone asked me a question that I can't answer, so here goes: > > How Linux copes with the Y2K problem? http://www.caldera.com/products/year2000/year2000.html is one place to start. - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 11 21:08:55 1998 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Y2K Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Paul Foley Date: 12 Mar 1998 05:45:28 +1300 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.3 - "Vatican City" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:21:58 -0800, Rob Walker wrote: > check www.sun.com, or was that www.sco.com, and they have a y2k FAQ on > there somewhere... it talks about how the OS itself has a problem > with the year 2038 being the big bad year, because all unices use 0 0 > 1970 (could be 0 0 1900) as their start time, and the time structure > rolls over in 2038, not 2000. 0 0? The "time_t" value will roll over in 2038, assuming anyone's still using 32 bit time_t (or Unix) in 2038. It's the number of seconds (sort of...the POSIX time_t doesn't handle leap-seconds) since midnight on the 1st of January 1970 (GMT). The time structure (struct tm) has a year value that counts from 1900. (It won't overflow, but dates have to be representable in a time_t) > of course, this does not address any applications which use 2 bytes of > data for their year field.... And that's the real problem. -- Paul Foley --- PGP-encrypted mail preferred PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33 C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 13 10:01:43 1998 Date: 13 Mar 1998 06:23:33 -0000 To: SVLUG List , balug-talk@balug.org, "What's all this Linux Business?" , Brain of Stig CC: webmaster@crushmicrosoft.com From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] http://web.crushmicrosoft.com/ X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My friend Joel Dubiner registered http://web.crushmicrosoft.com/ I'm hosting it and helping with content a bit. It's evolving. And I'm not sure how much time we have for it, but please LINK TO US and send comments to webmaster@crushmicrosoft.com if you think we should be linking something we're not. Stig ... Path HackVän ... Friend of Hacking Download the icon at http://web.crushmicrosoft.com/billgates-head-crush.gif And add this HTML to your web pages: Crush Bill PS: Can anyone convert a cinepack quicktime to something more universally viewable? I have a hilarious "Winsongs 95 Commercial" reminiscent of all those K-Tel spots from the 80s. Only it's really BIG (75 megabytes) and cinepack is a proprietary file format. RealVideo might be more widely available, but that's proprietary too. Hmmmmmm... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 13 13:09:05 1998 Date: 13 Mar 1998 08:19:18 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] META: linux-biz list plumbing? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What's up with the plumbing for the linux-biz list? Message-IDs seem to get stripped off at zip.mail-list.com by the mailing list software...which seems like a hacked version of ezmlm or something. And it looks like exim implements a different version of qmail's VERP (variable envelope return path) encoding... Hmmmmmmmm, interesting. Anyway, it's annoying that Message-IDs are stripped because my duplicate-suppression filters cannot operate. Can this be fixed? Thanks, Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 14 04:07:43 1998 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:40:26 -0600 From: Linas Vepstas To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Open Source & code quality X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I have been using AIX 4.2 and win95 a lot recently, and that has given me opprtunity to reflect on the nature of code quality. Let me begin by reaffirming the obvious: Linux is wildly superior to both. But how did this come to be? Let me offer an explanation, and also a bold, over-arching prediction: Traditional software development, as governed by heirarchies of managers and masses of employees will die; will mutate into a very, very different form. Bold, OK? How can I possibly claim this? With AIX 4.2, in the default configuration, the arrow keys on the keyboard don't work. Some mumbo jumbo .kshrc scripts can fix this, but they're not the default scripts. The default COSE window manager, when launching a tty, will be default fail to run either .profile, or .kshrc. I haven't figured out how to change this insulting default. At least in win95, the arrow keys work, and autoexec.bat runs when you start DOS. At this level, win95 *is* freindlier than AIX (although its far more horrible when you try to do development on it. The IDE's are a joke). How did this sorry state of affairs come to be? (1) Development by Mangement Fiat. AIX developers don't develop for themselves, they develop for what management wants. And management wants under-budget, ahead-of-schedule. Some corners get cut. The coders don't have time to fix little things. And no one cares: they're not building this stuff for thier own personal use. Its like having insurance work done on your house: the insurance agent comes in, the construction contractor comes in, wham bam thank you mam, and you're left with some shoddy, slightly lower quality stuff than what you would have gotten if you'd done it yourself. Saved the insurance company some bucks. Which brings me to the next point. (2) Open Source. Without Open Source, I can't relly get in there and fix the stupid defaults that AIX ships with. And even if I was and IBM employee, with full access to the source, I might be able to fix it, but wouldn't be able to get the beuracracy to ship it. You need approvals, system test, etc. and besides, its not your job. Your manager won't support your efforts to fix other peoples code. That's not what you're paid for. There is no way for a do-gooder to publish thier good works. Do-goodness gets squashed. By contrast, with open source, you can set itup the way you like it, and then give anyone else a copy. Its like decorating your home the way you like it: its up to you, not your boss. If your boss decorated your house, your house would look like your office. Blech. With open source, now that you've decorated your software "house" you can give away copies of you house at essentially no cost. If others like your house, they can move into it, at no cost to you. Which brings me to the next point: No-cost software and freedom of choice. (3) Free Markets and Unfettered Competition. Ahh... the spirit of capitalism, the spirit of America, the Freedom to Choose. When you have two or three no-cost pieces of software, you can, with relatively little investment of your time, download them all, try them, and pick the one you like. When you have $1K pieces of software, you are not going to buy alll three competing versions, and then dump the two you don't like. Can't afford to do that. Software that costs money limits your Freedom of Choice. This is the driver behind "try-before-you-buy" philosophy. Except that No-Cost Software has this philosphy beat. When software costs money, you have to change your strategy: Read magazine reviews. Ask friends. Go with the cheaper solutions. Go with the more popular solutions. Herd instinct. It doesn't lead to the fabled "efficiency of markets" that economists talk about. It doesn't always lead to the best solution. Cost provides not only a barrier to competition, but also an impediment to change. After you've paid for something, you are far less likely to replace it with something better, simply because of the costs involved. Software without cost leads to far more fluid markets, with all of the economic theory implications that follow: efficiency, and offering consumers a broader selection of better products. To recast it in more radical words: the relationship between the software worker and the means of software production is so radically different than any other relationship that we have in out collective economic history, that a fundamental shift in the industry is inevitable. Although management fiat will never go away, the traditional models of the relationship between management and product will no longer apply to the software industry. The traditional models of the distribution of (software) wealth are already strained. The freedoms of choice coupled with the ability to cheaply, almost freely, make copies, will radically alter the software landsacpe, and require new economic theories to be created. --linas , ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 14 06:01:05 1998 From: evt@texelsoft.com (Eric Van Tassell 1) To: "Linas Vepstas" , Subject: RE: [linux-biz] Open Source & code quality Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 22:21:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com To attempt to forestall impatient flamers who wouldn't read to the end, let me say I think open source is a good thing. I use Linux in my business and think both have a huge future for many reasons. > When software costs money, you have to change your strategy: > Read magazine reviews. Ask friends. Go with the cheaper solutions. > Go with the more popular solutions. Herd instinct. It doesn't Open Source doesn't make software free. It's a good thing but even if all your alternatives are free it still takes time to evaluate. Time being a precious resource people will STILL do all those bad things. It's an utter fantasy to think that people will evaluate every decision in their busy lives from fundamental principles. Working professionals don't have the time to turn the choice of every tool they use into a research project. Doctors will spend a lot of time researching cancer treatment options but not too much on whatever they use in the back office for billing. As long as the payments on the Mercedes gets made, they don't care. > lead to the fabled "efficiency of markets" that economists talk > about. It doesn't always lead to the best solution. May Adam Smith's invisible hand whack you about the shoulders until you realize that the only "best" a market can acheive is an instantaneous reading of a collective judgement of a group of participants. It's generally not to bad a judgement if information flows in a fair and timely manner to all participants. Otherwise all bets are flawed. If you're going to criticize markets, try to understand them. Markets are most usually flawed when one participant or the government distorts the information flow. This is why msft tried to keep any other browser's logo off the desktop. > Cost provides not only a barrier to competition, but also > an impediment to change. After you've paid for something, you > are far less likely to replace it with something better, > simply because of the costs involved. > Software without cost leads to far more fluid markets, with > all of the economic theory implications that follow: efficiency, Per above, there's no such thing as free when one has to consider the opportunity cost of what else you could do with your time. If you make $X/hr doing whatever you do and your professional association/friends/ Uncle Ellwood in the same business use Whatever-ware that costs $nx, how many hours are you going to spend researching alternatives if it's a a professional decision? I spend a lot of time investigating things in Linux because I find it interesting personally. -evt Eric van Tassell Texel Software, Inc. - System Software Engineering for Windows/NT 277 Cochran Hill Rd. Voice : 603-487-5006 New Boston, NH 03070 USA Fax : 603-487-5166 email : evt@texelsoft.com http://www.texelsoft.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 14 06:01:15 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Open Source & code quality To: evt@texelsoft.com (Eric Van Tassell 1) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 23:04:06 -0600 (CST) Cc: linas@linas.org, linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Eric Van Tassell 1 said: > > To attempt to forestall impatient flamers who wouldn't read to the end, let > me say I think open source is a good thing. I use Linux in my business and > think both have a huge future for many reasons. > > > When software costs money, you have to change your strategy: > > Read magazine reviews. Ask friends. Go with the cheaper solutions. > > Go with the more popular solutions. Herd instinct. It doesn't > Open Source doesn't make software free. It's a good thing but > even if all your alternatives are free it still takes time to > evaluate. Yep, absolutely agree. > > lead to the fabled "efficiency of markets" that economists talk > > about. It doesn't always lead to the best solution. Oops, bad wording. I changed the wording. Thanks for pointing this out. I've htmlized it and put it on http://linas.org/theory/quality.html --linas [I suppose I could bullshit about "peer-review" and how instant email can improve the quality of written text .... but I won't]. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 14 07:01:38 1998 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 20:29:31 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Eric Van Tassell 1 cc: Linux-Business Subject: RE: [linux-biz] Open Source & code quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Eric Van Tassell 1 wrote: > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 > ...I use Linux in my business and > think both have a huge future for many reasons. > > Texel Software, Inc. - System Software Engineering for Windows/NT Hmmmm. So just how *do* you use Linux in *your* business? Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 14 13:01:36 1998 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Open Source & code quality Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 18:04:29 +1100 From: Matthew Hannigan X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com In message , Linas Vepstas writes: > >[ .. ] The default COSE window manager, >when launching a tty, will be default fail to run either .profile, >or .kshrc. I haven't figured out how to change this insulting default. I'm sure that this is readily available documented variable setting. At least I know I've read what it is on Solaris which should be the same on AIX. (The actual name escapes me at the moment) Anyway, the real point is that this is not a question of lack of code quality; the decision to not source your .profile by default is a deliberate design decision. Sorry, can't really comment on the rest of your message; not familiar enough with either W95 or Aix. Regards, -Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 14 19:00:54 1998 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:39:05 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Open Source & code quality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Linas Vepstas wrote: > Let me offer an explanation, and also a bold, over-arching prediction: > Traditional software development, as governed by heirarchies of managers > and masses of employees will die; will mutate into a very, very > different form.... I don't have access to the basis for the original estimate, but something like 75% of the world's population has yet to even talk on the phone. To reach that same use frequency in the industrialized world, you probably have to go back to the 1920's. So what does this have to say about computers and software? For the sake of discussion, let's suppose that 90% of the world's population has yet to use a computer. Since World War II, we have seen many countries like China and Korea build powerful economies (China is still just beginning its build) and join the industrialized nations. And many more are getting on board every decade. In these developing countries software piracy is a way of life. As these countries establish themselves in the world economy they will perforce honor and enforce international law with respect to patents and intellectual property. As their resources for investing in commercial software will be extremely limited, Open Source software easily becomes the most cost effective means of computerizing. There is a short and extremely enlightening article ("Latvian Government Uses Linux") on the economies of scale that these countries are able to achieve by using Open Source software in the April 'Linux Journal'. As more and more of the developing countries become strong players in the world economy and opt for the much less costly computer solutions afforded by Open Source software, the resultant lower cost of their goods and services will force the developed countries to follow suit. For this reason alone, therefore, I submit that Open Source software is destined to dominate. Dwight software ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 16 06:01:25 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: linux-biz@lege.com From: cynthia@usenix.org (Cynthia Deno) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:42:39 -0800 Subject: [linux-biz] Freely Redistributable Software at USENIX Annual Conference X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Share ideas and actual code with developers and avid users of free software--FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and more at the 23rd Annual USENIX Technical Conference Includes FREENIX, the Freely Redistributable Software Track June 15-19, 1998, New Orleans, Louisiana Sponsored by USENIX, the Advanced Computing Systems Association FREENIX is co-sponsored by The FreeBSD Project, Linux International, TheNetBSD Foundation, Inc., and The OpenBSD Project ================================================ Full program and on-line registration: http://www.usenix.org/events/no98/ ================================================ FREENIX showcases the latest developments and interesting applications infreely redistributable software. FREENIX offers 28 talks, highly interactive, evening sessions, and in-depth tutorials. Tutorials let you master complex technologies. Choose among 22 in-depth tutorials: *System & Network Performance Tuning *Solaris Internals *Classic Topics in System Admin *Hot Topics in System Admin *Inside the Linux Kernel *Linux Systems Administration *Essential UNIX Programming *UNIX Network Programming *Cryptography Applications *Secure Communications *CGI and WWW Programming in Perl *UNIX Security Tools *Intro to Java *Advanced Java *Intro to Perl for Programmers *Network Security Profiles *Internet Security for UNIX Sysadmins *Windows NT Security *Security Around the World Wide Web *Sendmail Configuration *Troubleshooting Firewalls *Web & Intranet Performance Other conference highlights include: *Cutting-edge research via refereed papers and highly practical invited talks *Dennis Ritchie with a perspective on the original UNIX paper *Steve Mann discussing latest is wearable computers *Demos of the latest products in the expanded Exhibition Hall ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 16 15:02:08 1998 From: Fredric.Fredriksson@mydata.se To: pehlee@tm.net.my cc: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:19:08 +0100 Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Y2K; Re: Moved by Agent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > How Linux copes with the Y2K problem? I have spent some time investigating this and have come to the following conclusions: 1) The kernel, the c-library (ctime(3) etc) and basic functions (date(1) etc.) does not have any problem with Y2k. As some people pointed out time_t (if signed int) will be good until somewhere in 2038 (and by then I will be retired). It might also feel good to remember that the Y2k problem has been on CNN long before the 2.0 kernel release and any Y2k problems are probably found by now. 2) The application You have might still have a Y2k problem, however. These problems are usually connected to the tm_year member in the tm struct. The tm_year member contains number of years since 1900 and it is awfully tempting to write something like: printf("And the year is: %d",tm.tm_year) ; instead of: printf("And the year is: %d",tm.tm_year%100) ; or printf("And the year is: %d",tm.tm_year + 1900) ; And for PC based machines: 3) When You reboot Your machine Linux kernel reads current time and date from the PC RTC-chip. The RTC chip uses 2 digits for year. Linux assumes that a number below 70 means 21st century and any number above 70 means 20th century. Another problem discussed might be the fact that 2000 is a leap year. I have tested this and Linux seems to do the right thing. So does the RTC chips I have tested. /Fredric Fredricson PS. If time_t is made a 64 bit value (I find this very likely to happen in the future) it is a bit difficult to tell when time_t will overflow since it is impossible to know what kind of calendar that will be used when the sun has burned out its fuel and the earth has become uninhabitable. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 17 22:02:37 1998 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:52:30 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Digital Nervous System X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Read the article entitled Gates Goes For the Government http://www.idg.net/microsoft/ Pretty sinister stuff if you ask me. -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 17 22:03:38 1998 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:35:27 -0800 From: Don Marti To: Michael Dillon Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Digital Nervous System Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 09:52:30AM -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: > > Read the article entitled Gates Goes For the Government > http://www.idg.net/microsoft/ > > Pretty sinister stuff if you ask me. If your govt. doesn't put IS projects up for competitive bidding, it's probably breaking the law. If you have a high tolerance for paperwork, you can challenge another company's winning bid and force government to open the bidding process again. If you're a Linux consultant looking to sell into the govt. market, meet with the government reporter at your local anti-corporate muckraking weekly paper. Somebody who's in a position to do a "City Council Awards Pork Barrel Computer Contract to Microsoft" story. Some of these reporters know their way through the government maze better than the bureaucrats do. -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 17 22:16:49 1998 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:40:43 -0500 From: Michael McLay X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.18 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Linux to Provide the Digital Nervous System X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Michael Dillon wrote: > > Read the article entitled Gates Goes For the Government > http://www.idg.net/microsoft/ > > Pretty sinister stuff if you ask me. Yes, because he is correct in the 'calls for government infrastructure to "be the same as that of its citizens - virtually all of which will be PCs'. What Bill doesn't understand is that the government is compelled to by Linux in the long run because it is not proprietary. This could be his demise, but it will take a proactive stance on the part of Linux users. The market balance can be turned in favor of Linux by having a benign and politically correct law passed which forces government purchasing agents to give preference to "open-source" software, in favor to commerical off the self software (COTS). This should be done quietly so the big commercial software vendors don't start visiting capital hill. It should also be done with a ton of supporting evidence on why this is technically and politically a better approach. Anybody interested in making Linux International into a lobbying organization:-) We'll have strange bedfellows on this one. Ralph Nader is out to get Msoft. Actually, the first volley in this can be made by starting to bid Linux based systems on contracts that call for WinNT. Step two happens when you loose because you don't meet the contract specification. This will require bringign a suit against the government for improperly specifying the system requirements. They are not allowed to write the specs to favor a proprietary solution when an open market solution is available. They are also suppose to give preference to startup/new/small business. Starting the attach on NT is best because the price of setting up a system are significantly higher than the Linux equivolent and in most cases they are only using it as a file server and a email gateway. No need for NT in that situation. A cost comparison paper on NT vs. Linux at http://www.eklektix.com/lwn/980312/ntvslinux.html makes this statement rather dramatically. Another attach point is to visit the CIO Council,http://www.cio.fed.gov/, and start asking some pointed questions about how they are justifying the use of Msoft products when a cheaper and more reliable alternative is available. More importantly the alternative can truely be called multi-sourced on a bid. This group control the information technology purchasing power of the Federal government. Win that customer over and Msoft will start to crumble. (A $Billion dent in their sales?) Didn't someone recently post to this list about software for a credit union? Here's an announcement from the Commerce Business Daily which is calling for Microsoft products, but without justification for that requirement. I retrieve this with a buch of other Microsoft references from http://cbdnet.access.gpo.gov/search1.html Just use the word Microsoft on the search line. The National Credit Union Administration, NCUA, Asset Management Assistance Center, AMAC, plans to issue a competitive solicitation for the purchase of a commercially available, off-the shelf credit union management information system along with follow-on modifications and enhancements to that system in order to meet AMAC's unique processing requirements. This system must run in a client/server environment consisting of Microsoft Windows NT Server, Microsoft Windows NT Workstation, and Microsoft SQL Server running on Compaq ProLiant 5000R servers and Hewlett Packard Vectra VA Pentium Pro workstations on an Ethernet local area network. The credit union management information system used as the core of the AMAC system must be currently available, off the shelf, with an installed base of at least 10 credit union customers. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 17 23:02:36 1998 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:04:54 -0500 (EST) From: Elliot Lee To: Michael McLay cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux to Provide the Digital Nervous System MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Michael McLay wrote: > The market balance can be turned in favor of Linux by having a benign > and politically correct law passed which forces government purchasing > agents to give preference to "open-source" software, in favor to > commerical off the self software (COTS). This sounds a lot like the Microsoft-created mess that we're trying to get out of. Legislation is often the tool of those who cannot figure out an honest way to make something happen ;-) > This should be done quietly so the big commercial software vendors don't > start visiting capital hill. It should also be done with a ton of > supporting evidence on why this is technically and politically a better > approach. It isn't. Encouraging fair competition between software of all licenses is a better approach. -- Elliot http://www.redhat.com/ Chicken Little was right. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 17 23:02:54 1998 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:19:26 -0800 From: Don Marti To: Michael McLay Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux to Provide the Digital Nervous System Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 03:40:43PM -0500, Michael McLay wrote: > Here's an announcement from the Commerce Business > Daily which is calling for Microsoft products, but without justification > for that requirement. This appears to be an example of a sales rep helping to write a supposedly "open" request for bids. Government agencies have protocols to challenge this kind of trick, but you would have to get your hands dirty with the hairiest of paperwork. But once you got good you could file the same challenge to every "Windows" contract in the city|state|country. -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 18 19:01:53 1998 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:46:56 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com This is from an MS mailing list for members of the press: Good day. News highlights from Microsoft this week http://www.microsoft.com/presspass include the following: *Today at the National Manufacturing Week show in Chicago, Microsoft announced more than a dozen leading independent software vendors (ISV) have licensed Visual Basic for Applications (VBA) technology. By embracing VBA, the ISVs have propelled it to the forefront of application programming and scripting tools for the manufacturing industry and are helping to make the "digital nervous system" a reality. Could this DNS be a codeword for Microsoft's replacement for the Internet? -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 18 19:02:27 1998 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:14:23 -0600 From: David Tillman To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > industry and are helping to make the "digital nervous system" a reality. Somehow I feel that should be rephrased as a "nervous digital system". -Dave -- David Tillman | Bill: "Where do you want to go today?" dtillman@cannonexpress.com | Linus: "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt." ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 18 21:51:10 1998 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:07:10 -0500 From: Michael McLay X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.18 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux to Provide the Digital Nervous System Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Elliot Lee wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Michael McLay wrote: > > > The market balance can be turned in favor of Linux by having a benign > > and politically correct law passed which forces government purchasing > > agents to give preference to "open-source" software, in favor to > > commerical off the self software (COTS). > > This sounds a lot like the Microsoft-created mess that we're trying to get > out of. Legislation is often the tool of those who cannot figure out an > honest way to make something happen ;-) Have you ever worked in a government agency? The rules on purchasing are complex and unless something is explicity stated they are often skirted by carefully wording the paperwork. The goal is to force the purchasing agents to follow the law, which states that a non-proprietary solution should be selected when it is an available option. The current set of regulations let people wiggle out of following the law by writing wavers. These amount to hand waving, but this is enough to hoodwink the purchasing agent. The ideal answer would be to get the legislation to state that things like "NFS and then Samba must be tried before considering a commercial file server". Every taxpayer should want this law. (Unless they work for Microsoft:-)) It will lower taxes by reducing the cost of information technology to the government. This isn't regulation on what individuals can do, which I oppose as a general principle. It is regulations to ensure that the government uses money in the most cost effective way possible. The purpose of the legislation would be to clarify just what open-source code is and to make it clear to purchasing agents that having open-source on the specification is the best option. The purchasing agents really like it when they can recognize something on an otherwise inpenitrable specification that is filled with dozens of words that make no sense to a non CS type. They worry about doing the right thing, but often they lack the technical knowledge to judge when a technical "requirement" is really just a whim of the person making a purchase. >From personal experience I know of agencies that have gone over to using Msoft, without a shred of evidence to support the decision. The choice can be made because the person in charge has Windows at home and like it. Make it illegal to just arbitrarily pick Windows without justfication and they will pick Linux. Without the legislation they will take the easy route and stick with what everyone else is using. Sticking with the pack is safe and that wins almost everytime with a bureaucrat. Do you really think the other side in this fight will act like gentlemen and just let Linux take the market? They will spread FUD and do everything possible to make the government's digital nervous system the proprietary one they are pushing. There is nothing wrong with pushing the Linux agenda. It's the right thing to do. Promoting it as a legislative solution will at least make it visible. That is better than the current stealth marketing campaign that is being used to take over the purchasing agents' mindshare. > > This should be done quietly so the big commercial software vendors don't > > start visiting capital hill. It should also be done with a ton of > > supporting evidence on why this is technically and politically a better > > approach. > > It isn't. Encouraging fair competition between software of all licenses is > a better approach. What is fair about a government employee picking a information technology solution because they read about it in an advertisement in Businessweek? They didn't research alternatives and the purchasing agent had no way to know that an alternative exists. So for instance, if the purchasing agent has been given a PO for $60k to buy a Win NT network configuration for a 100 person department how are they to know that they could substitute a $219 equivolent system? These are tax dollars. I want them to save the $600 per seat and use the free stuff. Especially when you consider that the government has over 1M seats. This is why I think the CIO Council needs to be informed and the Linux community needs to help make the lowest cost approach also be the lowest risk approach. (Risk being the possibility of being fired for not following legislation or not buying technology that will do the job.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 04:07:40 1998 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:09:23 -0800 From: Don Marti To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 08:46:56AM -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: > > This is from an MS mailing list for members of the press: > > Good day. News highlights from Microsoft this week > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass > include the following: > > *Today at the National Manufacturing Week show in Chicago, Microsoft > announced more than a dozen leading independent software vendors (ISV) > have licensed Visual Basic for Applications (VBA) technology. Anybody see Big Brother Bill's article in the March _Byte_? (Don't laugh, I bought it for the Apache article.) Quoth he: "In a certain sense, VBA is moving beyond being a single technology and is fast becoming a standardized _platform_ for development, just like Windows and the Internet." The man has obviously gone completely mad. Hands up who would chew your own foot off to avoid going back to Basic? There is no "digital nervous system." Don't panic. Digital Nervous system is a sales rep's virtual mystery future -- where you will supposedly be when you install the Microsoft product that's coming out next year. You will never get there, so Microsoft will never have to provide it, but everybody else's product has to compete against it. Instead of getting hung up on this or that proprietary annoucement, let's concentrate on describing our Linux visions for the near future -- on the benefits we will offer. -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 04:08:06 1998 From: grimel@icx.net (George R) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 19:00:40 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux to Provide the Digital Nervous System X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.40a b42 (Unregistered) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On 03/18/98 at 03:07 PM, Michael McLay said: >Have you ever worked in a government agency? The rules on purchasing are >complex and unless something is explicity stated they are often skirted >by >carefully wording the paperwork. Yes, I have. I've written many of those purchase orders crafted to get exactly what _I_ wanted. With proper paperwork a 200 seat NT network connected to a 2000 seat Unix network could be purchased for 1 person to answer email. >The goal is to force the purchasing agents to follow the law, which >states that a non-proprietary solution should be selected when it is an >available >option. The current set of regulations let people wiggle out of >following >the law by writing wavers. These amount to hand waving, but this is >enough to hoodwink the purchasing agent. The ideal answer would be to >get the legislation to state that things like "NFS and then Samba must >be tried before considering a commercial file server". Why fool with wavers, just spec it out for what _you_ the techie wants. Throw around a bunch of TLAs and 14 letter words. Then end the request w/ a paragraph about product xzy metting all requirements at the lowest cost of capital and man-hours, for current personel. Plenty of wiggle room if questioned at a later date. With that last line Win95/NT is the OS of choice - most people have it at home or use it at work now; no training required so the cost is $800 for Office and $150 for Win95, <$1k per seat. Linux needs training, 40hrs at $25 per hour(plus employee's wage) plus Applix/StarOffice/WordPerfect, >$2k per seat. See, Win95 saves those tax dollars. M$ is a _much_ cheaper solution than that free stuff. Almost forgot how easy it was to get a purchasing agent's eyes to glaze over. >Every taxpayer should want this law. (Unless they work for >Microsoft:-)) >It will lower taxes by reducing the cost of information technology to > the government. This isn't regulation on what individuals can do, which >I oppose as a general principle. It is regulations to ensure that the >government uses money in the most cost effective way possible. YES, regulate the government to a greater extent than they have regulated us! George A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place - anon. ---------------------------------------------------- reply to: grimel @icx Sorry for the trouble, I'm just getting to much spam. .net ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 06:07:05 1998 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:17:14 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > The man has obviously gone completely mad. Hands up who would chew > your own foot off to avoid going back to Basic? Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a batch and incremental compiler, string handling, and garbage collection. Hint: no line numbers. Furthermore, it can easily do both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? C? No garbage collection, infinite memory access errors, GUI way too hard, graphics way too hard C++? See above Perl? Language not suitable for large programs, no compiler Tcl/Tk? Too slow, no compiler Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 10:01:54 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 01:21:31 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a > batch and incremental compiler, string handling, and garbage > collection. Hint: no line numbers. Furthermore, it can easily do > both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? Um, there's this language Sun invented, though the name escapes me. Something to do with a hot beverage. It has a handful of people using it now, but some obscure company based in Armonk NY, has heavily committed to writing software with it. Garbage collections, can be run interpreted or compiled, works great with GUIs, many RAD tools available, one bag of bits runs on many different CPUs. Give me a few days and I'll remember the name...damn. - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 10:07:46 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:52:25 +0100 (MET) From: Bernard Lang To: bb@wv.com, linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com ------------ Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a ...... What does Unix have to compete with it? ...... ------------ ever tried Objective CAML ... but, yes, they do not have the marketing clout... but the browsers, servers, etc... written in CAML do not crash. Bernard.Lang@inria.fr ,_ /\o \o/ Tel +33 (1) 3963 5644 http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Fax +33 (1) 3963 5469 INRIA / B.P. 105 / 78153 Le Chesnay CEDEX / France Je n'exprime que mon opinion - I express only my opinion CAGED BEHIND WINDOWS or FREE WITH LINUX ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 10:07:54 1998 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:44:41 -0800 From: sean dreilinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.33 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Bartholomew CC: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Brian Bartholomew wrote: > Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a despite its technical achievements, VB has a nasty social perception/stigma associated with it. we had a client wanted to port their healthcare management system from COBOL to VB. when i queried IT managers and programmers how they'd feel about staying in a hospital that was dependent on a VB application, they weren't very receptive. amusing writeup with names changed to protect the innocent here: http://www.kensho.com/pubs/vb-anon.pdf --sean -- sean dreilinger, mlis http://www.interactivate.com/people/sean/ sean@interactivate.com +1 (619) 748-7684 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 17:08:10 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:14:34 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > ever tried Objective CAML Not yet, but I may soon. I'm interested in the group broadcast protocol Ensemble (successor to Isis and Horus), and that's written in Objective CAML. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 17:08:20 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:58:02 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Um, there's this language Sun invented, though the name escapes me. That one's still in beta test regarding its openness, portability, stability, and tool set maturity. I want to see the spec stop mutating, and defend itself from hijacking. I want to download the whole toolset in source. I want to see a critical base of user code appear to stabilize the market. I'd give it a couple years. Meanwhile, it's a nice prototype. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 17:08:24 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:06:55 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > we had a client wanted to port their healthcare management system > from COBOL to VB. when i queried IT managers and programmers how > they'd feel about staying in a hospital that was dependent on a VB > application, they weren't very receptive. I certainly wouldn't want to stay in a hospital run on an OS that crashes every three hours. Why should I trust the electronically- transmitted lab results? However, I feel most of these problems come from the OS group, not the VB language group. VB is still an inappropriate choice in practice, because of all the OS issues. But don't run down the language or its feature set, which are fine. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 18:01:25 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 07:43:32 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Bernard Lang cc: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Bernard Lang wrote: > ------------ > Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a > ...... > What does Unix have to compete with it? > ...... > ------------ > > ever tried Objective CAML ... but, yes, they do not have the marketing > clout... but the browsers, servers, etc... written in CAML do not > crash. CAML, ML and HOL seem to be virtually unknown outside of France. What can you tell us about them? Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 18:02:30 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:02:26 -0700 (MST) From: Darren Boyd To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > Um, there's this language Sun invented, though the name escapes me. > > That one's still in beta test regarding its openness, portability, > stability, and tool set maturity. I want to see the spec stop > mutating, and defend itself from hijacking. I want to download the > whole toolset in source. I want to see a critical base of user code > appear to stabilize the market. I'd give it a couple years. > Meanwhile, it's a nice prototype. In keeping with the content of the message, can anyone fairly compare Java and VB in these categories: - openness - portability - stability - tool set maturity (this one I could probably guess at :-)) - stable spec - defense from hijacking - availability of toolset source - critical base of user code in market I ask because I don't know a lot about Java (although I'm trying to learn) and less about VB (except for the only people I know that use it, think that MS Access is the best database backend in the universe). Thanks, Darren Darren Boyd | dboyd@its.to Home Page and Public Key | http://www.its.to/~dboyd ----------------------------|-------------------------------- The moment of victory is much too short to live for that and nothing else. -Martina Navrtilova ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 18:14:22 1998 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 (debian) X-URL: http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver X-face: "xUFVDj+ZJtL_IbURmI}!~xAyPC"Mrk=MkAm&tPQnNq(FWxv49R}\>0oI8VM?O2VY+N7@F- KMLl*!h}B)u@TW|B}6 cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:06:32 +0000 From: "Oliver Elphick" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Brian Bartholomew wrote: >> The man has obviously gone completely mad. Hands up who would chew >> your own foot off to avoid going back to Basic? > >Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a >batch and incremental compiler, string handling, and garbage >collection. Hint: no line numbers. Furthermore, it can easily do >both GUI and graphics. I tried to use Visual Basic once... > What does Unix have to compete with it? > > C? No garbage collection, infinite memory access errors, > GUI way too hard, graphics way too hard > C++? See above Use qt (if you're not a purist about free code) for a nice GUI builder > Perl? Language not suitable for large programs, no compiler > Tcl/Tk? Too slow, no compiler Eiffel - garbage collection, reliable code, GUI designer, very suitable for very large projects, incremental compilation during development (It also runs on M$ W95 and NT) > >Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. > > >Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- >Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > -- Oliver Elphick Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk Isle of Wight http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver PGP key from public servers; key ID 32B8FAA1 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 18:14:26 1998 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Paul Foley Date: 20 Mar 1998 01:28:32 +1200 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.3 - "Vatican City" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:17:14 -0500, Brian Bartholomew wrote: >> The man has obviously gone completely mad. Hands up who would chew >> your own foot off to avoid going back to Basic? > Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a The only reasonably nice BASIC I ever saw was on the Sinclair QL. MS BASIC is sickening in comparison. > batch and incremental compiler, string handling, and garbage > collection. Hint: no line numbers. Furthermore, it can easily do > both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? Hmmm...Java's idiot cousin. > Perl? Language not suitable for large programs, no compiler Maybe, but who says it's any less suitable for large programs than VB? I think I'd rather write Perl than BASIC. > Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. Lisp. And/or it's cousin, Scheme: everyone seems to be building Guile into things lately (e.g., the GIMP, Gnome, scwm, rms apparently plans to replace Emacs Lisp with Guile eventually...) We also have Python, Icon, Occam, ML, Pascal, Fortran, CAML, Prolog, Miranda, Modula, ... BASIC, if you really want it ... whatever you can think of. They're all useful for something, I suppose. There even used to be a company offering a Visual Basic compiler for Linux, but I don't know if they're still around. -- Paul Foley --- PGP-encrypted mail preferred PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33 C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 18:14:55 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:13:47 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com [I have a reputation for only posting to this list when someone gets a nit picky technical detail wrong. Here I go again!] On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > The man has obviously gone completely mad. Hands up who would chew > > your own foot off to avoid going back to Basic? > > Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a > batch and incremental compiler, string handling, and garbage > collection. Hint: no line numbers. Furthermore, it can easily do > both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? Perl/Tk to name (possibly not the best, but my favorite) one > Perl? Language not suitable for large programs, no compiler Majordomo is written in perl, among other things. Perl is no less suitable for large programs tham Visual Basic is. Indeed it's more so. And it _does_ have a compiler, 2 different ways to accompliish that, in fact. Read the perl faq, and FUD somewhere else please. Perl has this reputation that perl code is unreadible 2 days after you write it. Well, stuff that starts out as a 5 line script usually has that characteristic. But there's nothing inherent in perl which keeps you from writing things in a readible way (using if rather than short circuiting your bolean && + ||, for example) and commenting. And don't start in with anything like "well, but the shipping modules are written in these unreadible ways, so I couldn't ever go in and much with them" -- you certainly can't go in and try to mess with the vb dlls either. > Tcl/Tk? Too slow, no compiler I'm not a big tcl/tk fan myself, but I do have respect for it enough. Play with tkdesk, and tell me how easy of a thing that'd be to write in VB. [incr tcl] I'm told is awesome, and certainly tkdesk would support that claim. tcl 8 does bytecode compiling (or something, correct me if I'm wrong) that improves its speed. I'm not sure if [incr tcl] has been brought up to tcl 8 yet (the linux journal I just read says no, but that may be old). And you can take tcl/tk scripts and turn them into standalone executables -- I dunno what exactly goes into this since I don't use it, but if tcl 8 is fast enough and you can avoid needing a tcl install on the person's machine, then that sounds close enough to compiled for me. Probably as close as VB at least. Look, the parts of VB that are fast are the dlls written in C or C++. For every perl XS I write in C or C++ that part can scream just as fast. I can link my tcl/tk stuff with C (heck, it was meant originally to be embedded in your C app), and that'll be fast too. I seriously doubt that a VB app deals with big arrays and so forth any better than perl does. > Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. Things which I have the source for are infintely more useful to me than vaguely comparable things that I don't have the source for. I guess some people have different concepts of useful, though. And, yes, it really does matter -- patching my kernel's serial driver to do something funky with nonstandard hardware so that I can make a solution happen for a client is useful, while languages for which I have no opportunity to audit and fix security problems in them aren't useful to me when I need to trust it to not do bad things. And so on. jim ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 19:00:57 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:34:40 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Don Marti wrote: > There is no "digital nervous system." Sure there is, it's the Internet. Imagine what would happen if thousands of people start talking about the planet's digital nervous system meaning the Internet and the Internet standards and the open-source software that built the Internet. Guess what? Microsoft doesn't have much of a place in the planet's digital nervous system. They may dominate the client PC's that are connected to the digital nervous system but the system itself runs primarily on various flavors of UNIX and lots of open-source applications like BIND, Apache, etc. > Instead of getting hung up on this or that proprietary annoucement, > let's concentrate on describing our Linux visions for the near future > -- on the benefits we will offer. Instead of insulting and making fun of Microsoft, let's do some *MARKETING* of the open-source concepts that led to the creation of a planetary digital nervous system, namely, the Internet. Spin-doctoring is an incredibly powerful marketing tool, ya know. -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 19:02:58 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:43:00 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? Python is pretty darn close. Check out http://www.python.org for details. The main shortcoming of Python is that it depends on Tk for its cross-platform GUI but on Windows you can write non-portable Python code that directly uses the Windows GUI. At least one person is working on a non-Tk cross-platform GUI for Python that would presumably improve that situation. > Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. I think UNIX already has. Python is a superior dynamic object-oriented language and PERL is a superior sysadmin's language with powerful string handling capabilities. Some significant applications have been built with Python such as Bobo http://www.digicool.com/releases/bobo/ Have a look through http://www.python.org/python/Contributed.htmlhttp://www.python.org/python/Contributed.html to see what people have done with it. -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 19:03:23 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:50:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On 20 Mar 1998, Paul Foley wrote: > There even used to be a company offering a Visual Basic compiler for > Linux, but I don't know if they're still around. http://www.vbix.com/products.html is now on the Java bandwagon -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 19:17:53 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:38:55 -0600 From: David Tillman To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. There are many. Some are even more useful than VB. PERL, Lisp, Scheme, Tcl, and Python have all been mentioned. The choice *should* be governed by these: 1. When do you need it? 2. Does it have to be maintained / modified? 3. How fast does it need to run? For software that is not going to be modified except for bug-fixes, and that doesn't need to be written overnight, C / C++ are still the best choices. I use Scheme for large projects that may have to be modified as needs change. I have done large projects in PERL. These were *not* projects that started out as 5 line scripts and mutated. Even with careful planning and documentation PERL is a pain in the rump to maintain. I have promised myself that I will write no more several thousand line PERL programs. VB is not the answer. I speak from experience. I have written many large projects in VB in years past and have found that its only real virtue is as an easy GUI builder for windows. What really governs language choice? 1. Familiarity (FUD of other languages) 2. PR (Infoworld, etc) 3. Learning curve Number 3 plays a huge part. With VB you can drag a box and click a few buttons and Wham!, you have a windows application. Never mind that as the problem set increases in difficulty coding becomes a grind. With functional languages (Lisp, Scheme, ML, etc) the learning curve is practically vertical. However, once you have learned the language, most coding problems are trivial. What does this mean to linux-biz? I don't think that there is one unified language that is *the* killer language... -Dave -- David Tillman | Bill: "Where do you want to go today?" dtillman@cannonexpress.com | Linus: "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt." ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 19:23:32 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:24:48 -0800 (PST) From: Tracy R Reed To: "Cary B. O'Brien" cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VB vs Unix (Was Digital Nervous System) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Cary B. O'Brien wrote: > Interestingly enough, in some ways ELF, the extension language > built into Applixware comes close, and goes further in some ways. This kinda worries me in some ways. So far, Unix platforms have been free of viruses. But if there were a really popular word processor (or any other app that supported a sufficiently powerful embedded language) which was stored in the documents (a la Word) we could have the first Unix virus on our hands. The equivalent of a macro virus. -- Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org http://www.linux.org - Escape the Gates of Hell ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 19:24:21 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VB vs Unix (Was Digital Nervous System) To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:01:27 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Brian Bartholomew wrote: > >> The man has obviously gone completely mad. Hands up who would chew > >> your own foot off to avoid going back to Basic? > > > >Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a > >batch and incremental compiler, string handling, and garbage > >collection. Hint: no line numbers. Furthermore, it can easily do > >both GUI and graphics. > > I tried to use Visual Basic once... > > > What does Unix have to compete with it? > > > > C? No garbage collection, infinite memory access errors, > > GUI way too hard, graphics way too hard > > C++? See above > > Use qt (if you're not a purist about free code) for a nice GUI builder Interestingly enough, in some ways ELF, the extension language built into Applixware comes close, and goes further in some ways. 1) Byte Compiled (I think) 2) Processor Independent. 3) Drag-and-drop GUI/APP builder (Applix Builder) 4) Integrated with office suite. 5) Built in Networking. (Can do remote object calls to other applixware hosts) 6) Object Oriented (kind-a dont flame me) 7) Integrated with databases (somewhat for Linux, more for commercial unix) 8) Real-time data feed supported. 9) Has a debugger. 10) Can ship application and run-time library without entire office suite. 11) C-extendable. I think this is an under-rated product. Tiny applixware page --> http://www.access.digex.net/~cobrien/applix -- cary [snip] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 19:24:58 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:54:47 -0700 (MST) From: Sergey Nikitin To: distribute_soft , baer@soma.la.asu.edu, beck@maria.la.asu.edu, byn@stokes.la.asu.edu, disc@mnemonic.org, java-linux-devel@java.blackdown.org, linux-apps@vger.rutgers.edu, linux-biz@lege.com, linux-ppp@vger.rutgers.edu, linux-x11@vger.rutgers.edu Cc: nikitin@asu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] JDK1.1.5v1.3 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com README.linux for Glibc2_JDK 1.1.5, Version 1.3 Sergey Nikitin nikitin@asu.edu Glibc2_jdk1.1.5v1.3 Dear Developers: A version 1.3 of JDK 1.1.5 for Linux-Glibc2 is released. In working over this release the main goal was to eliminate memory leak. This goal is achieved. I also approached Sun Microsystems and asked about possibility to distribute JDK for Linux on CDROM. The permition to do so was kindly granted by Sun Microsystems. So the next release will be distributed both through ftp-site and on CDROM. ++++++++++++++++++++++++Linux-JAVA-CDROM+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CDROM will include: (i) complete documentation on JDK1.1 and 1.2 (or any other the most recent JDK) equipped with search engines. (ii) JDK1.1.5 (or any other appropriate, the most recent version of JDK released from Sun Microsystems by the time the CDROM is ready for distribution). (iii) Demo examples and tests. (iv) Linux-HOWTO equipped with search engine. Linux-HOWTO will include JAVA-HOWTO written by S.Nikitin. +++++++++++++++++++++The next topic is in work+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ (iv) Enhanced Mathematical Library suitable for parallel numerical computing. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Estimated cost of CDROM is $7.00 + (shipping and handling). ___________________________________________________________ The date for release is August, 1998. The CDROM will be distributed by M&S Group, Inc. _____________________________________________________ If you want this CDROM, then please send me el-mail (nikitin@asu.edu). ___________________________________________________________________ Prerelease will be also available on CDROM, starting from April 15th. CDROM will be distributed by M&S Group, Inc. It will include ++++++++++++++++++++++Linux-JAVA-SnapShot-CDROM++++++++++++++++++++ (i) Linux JDK1.1.5 for libc6- and libc5-systems. (ii) Demo and tests examples. (iii) Complete JAVA-documentation equipped with search engine. (iv) Linux-HOWTO equipped with search engine. (v) Diffs for source-code allowed by Sun Microsystems (together with instructions on how to apply and compile JDK on Linux). ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CDROM cost is $5.50 + (shipping and handling) If you want this CDROM please send me el-mail (nikitin@asu.edu). -------------------------------------------------------------------- WHERE THE MONEY for CDROM DISTRIBUTION WILL GO!!! Neither me nor M&S Group, Inc. has any intention to accumulate wealth. All the funds earned from CDROM-distribution will be spent on Linux development. The following will give you a picture of profit (if any profit is earned) distribution (cost for CDROM minus the sum I need to pay Sun Microsystems and payment for CDROM production). _________________________________ (i) GNU foundation - 10% (ii) Linux-HOWTO writers -10% (iii) Linux-Kernel developers - 20% (iv) libc5 and libc6 developers -20% (v) People who tested JDK ( I keep their names in file, but please send me also your complete address and complete name)-10% (vi) ASU, Department of Mathematics-10% (vii)Keeping ftp and Web - site on the run -10% (through ASU and M&S Group,Inc.) (viii)People from BlackDown Org.(who initiated Linux-JDK port)-10% ________________________________ Remarks connected with the areas of spending are invited. ====================================================================== Recently I have been shopping for TaX-Filing Software and found that Win95 is on sail for $199. It is ridiculous guys. It is questionable whether I would take it even for free. ___________ Remark. I respect and admire many of Microsoft products, but my admiration is vanishing while respect is growing when I look at the price tag. ------------------ We can do better guys. LET'S GET IT ROLL!!! ---------------------------------------- ======================================================================= This is a port of JDK 1.1.5 to Linux compiled with Glibc2 libraries. RH5.0_JDK1.1.5v1.3 with Motif compiled statically and dynamically can be found at ftp://lagrange.la.asu.edu/pub/Linux_jdk/JDK-1.1.5/RH5.0_jdk1.1.5v1.3_static.tar.gz To install JDK 1.1.5 you must work as root, you need to set up a shell-variable ------------------------------------------------------------- export JAVA_HOME = /the_dir_where_you_untar_JDK/jdk1.1.5/ -------------------------------------------------------------- export CLASSPATH = /the_dir_where_you_untar_JDK/jdk1.1.5/lib/classes.zip:/other_dirs_with_classes/ -------------------------------------------------------------- for Bourne Shell, or -------------------------------------------------------- setenv JAVA_HOME = /the_dir_where_you_untar_JDK/jdk1.1.5/ -------------------------------------------------------- setenv CLASSPATH = /the_dir_where_you_untar_JDK/jdk1.1.5/lib/classes.zip:/other_dirs_with_classes/ -------------------------------------------------------- for C Shell. If you have any problem or find a bug in JDK1.1.5 please let me know by el-mail: nikitin@asu.edu tel/fax: (602)491-7599 http://lagrange.la.asu.edu http://www.m-and-s.com Additional information about JDK and various demo-examples are posted at http://lagrange.la.asu.edu/VirtualClass http://nr.conexware.com/~zorzella/wine/FAQ2.htm Thanks to Luiz Otavio L. Zorzella zorzella@conexware.com http://www.conexware.com ======================== Best regards, Sergey !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ACKNOWLEDGEMENT. THANKS to Steve Byrne and Randy Chapman. Working over this version of JDK1.1.4v1.2 I used linux-jdk1.1.3-v1.\ diffs and linux.jdk.1.0.2.diffs. It helped to recompile runtime libs. THANKS to Andrea Arcangeli, Matthias Sattler, John Edstrom, Bill White, Levente Farkas, David Engel, Alex Yukhimets, Holger Trapp Bill Broadley Kellas Reeves Terrence W. Zeller Luiz Otavio L. Zorzella for important comments and testing the early release of JDK1.1.4. Very special THANKS to Uri Blumenthal for a lot of important remarks. THANKS to Karl Asha for maintaining JAVA Linux site, it helped a lot in work. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- Waiting for suggestion and comments. ---------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ Dr. Sergey Nikitin ____________________________________ Department of Mathematics Arizona State University Tempe, AZ 85287-1804 http://lagrange.la.asu.edu e-mail: nikitin@asu.edu tel. (602)965-0466 ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 21:04:43 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:10:12 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Eiffel - garbage collection, reliable code, GUI designer, very suitable for > very large projects, incremental compilation during development > (It also runs on M$ W95 and NT) I've heard lots of good things about Eiffel. "No-cost freely- redistributable in source" was not one of them. > Perl is no less suitable for large programs tham Visual Basic > is. Indeed it's more so. I have a 2K line perl program I wrote myself, and I'm going to be rewriting it in something other than perl. Using 'strict' addresses the variables-have-global-visibility problem, but I couldn't find a satisfactory way to pass an arbitrary list of arbitrarily complex data structures both into and out of subroutines. > Lisp, Scheme Great language, but no GUI or graphics bindings. Or at least not for any of the well-known Unix Lisp variants I hear about. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 21:10:32 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:23:53 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > Perl is no less suitable for large programs tham Visual Basic > > is. Indeed it's more so. > > I have a 2K line perl program I wrote myself, and I'm going to be > rewriting it in something other than perl. Using 'strict' addresses > the variables-have-global-visibility problem, but I couldn't find a > satisfactory way to pass an arbitrary list of arbitrarily complex data > structures both into and out of subroutines. This is the second time you've made this mistake in a row: You start parading VB as being better, then you drop into vacumm-evaluations of perl. Last time it was that perl is unsuitable for large programs. You have gotten several emails on "it's better than VB for a large project!" and follow up with a criticism of one perl "inadequacy" (I'm not a perl expert so I don't know if your problem is easily solved, I'm not trying to be sarcasting with the quotes). And you say that you'll be writing it in something other than perl. Will you be writing it in Visual Basic? If the answer is no, then it kinda suggests that Visual Basic as somehow being more "useful" than perl/tk (or whatever) is suspicious. You might say "it would be Visual Basic if I had Visual Basic for ." It may well be that VB _does_ have the support for passing the data types around in the way you'd like, I dunno. Indeed, platform may be the only thing keeping you from using vb -- but I certainly regard the lack of platform support beyond win32 as being something which cuts into its usefullness. Perl/Tk, Tcl/Tk, and many of the other things suggested don't have that limitation (heck, so does Qt, usual caveats about Qt apply though). I'm not a senseless MS-basher -- I like DHCP, and there's probably something else out there that I like. I used to recommend IE 3/MacOS over Netscape 3/MacOS. ;-) If VB was usefull to me I'd admit it. jim ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 21:11:37 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:24:43 +0100 (MET) From: Bernard Lang To: Bernard.Lang@inria.fr, dwj@aaronsrod.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system Cc: linux-biz@lege.com, pierre.weis@inria.fr X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com -------- CAML, ML and HOL seem to be virtually unknown outside of France. What can you tell us about them? -------- first ML was created in Stanford, and the SML version was much developed in New Jersey (which I believe is not in France). AFAIK CAML is used in the US, even in MS labs... Bernard.Lang@inria.fr ,_ /\o \o/ Tel +33 (1) 3963 5644 http://pauillac.inria.fr/~lang/ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Fax +33 (1) 3963 5469 INRIA / B.P. 105 / 78153 Le Chesnay CEDEX / France Je n'exprime que mon opinion - I express only my opinion CAGED BEHIND WINDOWS or FREE WITH LINUX ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 21:12:19 1998 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:31:07 -0500 X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 From: jcc2@juno.com (John C Cusick) Subject: [linux-biz] VBasic vs ??? (was digital noivus system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com >Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a >batch and incremental compiler, string handling, and garbage >collection. Hint: no line numbers. Furthermore, it can easily do >both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? > > C? No garbage collection, infinite memory access >errors, > GUI way too hard, graphics way too hard > C++? See above > Perl? Language not suitable for large programs, no >compiler > Tcl/Tk? Too slow, no compiler > >Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. Python1.5 w/Tkinter is relatively close, don't you think ??? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 21:12:24 1998 From: evt@texelsoft.com (Eric Van Tassell 1) To: Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:54:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01BD533E.8BF66360" Subject: [linux-biz] =?iso-8859-1?Q?MSNBC_-_Apache=92s_free_software_gives_Microsoft_and_Netsc?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ape_fits_=28http://www.ms?= X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BD533E.8BF66360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I especially liked the comment about hotmail. http://www.msnbc.com/news/151800.asp ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BD533E.8BF66360 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="=?iso-8859-1?Q?MSNBC_-_Apache=92s_free_software_gives_Microsoft_and_Netsc?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ape_fits.url?=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="=?iso-8859-1?Q?MSNBC_-_Apache=92s_free_software_gives_Microsoft_and_Netsc?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ape_fits.url?=" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.msnbc.com/news/151800.asp Modified=E0FF014E6853BD01A7 ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BD533E.8BF66360-- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 19 23:00:40 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:37:54 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Jim, the original post I responded to suggested the current VB language was similar to early-80's BASIC, and therefore uninteresting and dismissable. I disagreed with that assessment using a summary of VB language features. I then compared the VB language feature set to a variety of Unix-y languages, to show something as useful as VB is still missing from the free-software Unix environment. What will I write my next program in? If I could get the VB language feature set on Unix with the openness and dominance of gcc or perl, that's what I'd use. Since that doesn't exist today, I'm still looking. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 06:01:40 1998 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:06:25 -0700 From: Jonathan Corbet Subject: [linux-biz] Unix vs NT article X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com A guy named John Kirch put up an article comparing Unix and NT at: http://www.kirch.net/unix-nt.html It's a well-reasoned case, with good references and quotes. Linux is prominent in his discussion, though strangely absent from some of his feature comparison charts. It's good advocacy material. -- Jonathan Corbet, Eklektix, Inc. corbet@eklektix.com Linux Weekly News -- http://www.eklektix.com/lwn/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 06:02:22 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:55:43 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Unix vs NT article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Jonathan Corbet wrote: > http://www.kirch.net/unix-nt.html > > It's a well-reasoned case, with good references and quotes. Note this quote. Why wouldn't Linux and FreeBSD also be purchased with no prior approval? NT is also an excellent choice for managers who need to show that they used up their fiscal year budget for hardware/software expenditures. Perhaps this is why it requires no prior purchase approval within federal agencies; "NT has become the 'unofficial' standard operating system for the federal government. Federal employees whose responsibilities include the acquisition of computer hardware/software require prior written approval from above before ordering a UNIX operating system or hardware which cannot run Windows NT. For Intel-based hardware or Windows NT, no prior approval is required." (as reported by a vendor of Sun solutions who wishes to remain anonymous) -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 06:03:18 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:40:53 -0500 From: Michael McLay X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.18 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Michael Dillon wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > > both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? > > Python is pretty darn close. Check out http://www.python.org for details. > The main shortcoming of Python is that it depends on Tk for its > cross-platform GUI but on Windows you can write non-portable Python code > that directly uses the Windows GUI. At least one person is working on a > non-Tk cross-platform GUI for Python that would presumably improve that > situation. If you use the jpython version of Python you get all the java objects thrown into the mix for free. (See http://www.python.org/jpython/ > > Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. > > I think UNIX already has. Python is a superior dynamic object-oriented > language and PERL is a superior sysadmin's language with powerful string > handling capabilities. Some significant applications have been built with > Python such as Bobo http://www.digicool.com/releases/bobo/ Absolutely, and even the Win95 weenies think it is cool. The activeX and COM hook make Python a better VB than VB. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 06:04:04 1998 Date: 20 Mar 1998 01:17:04 -0000 To: Jim Hebert Cc: Brian Bartholomew , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim Hebert wrote: > > > Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. > > Things which I have the source for are infintely more useful to me than > vaguely comparable things that I don't have the source for. I guess some > people have different concepts of useful, though. And, yes, it really > does matter [...] while languages for which I have no opportunity to audit > and fix security problems in them aren't useful to me when I need to trust > it to not do bad things. And so on. I can honestly say that I have fixed bugs in Perl. It's cool. Perl's data model still pisses me off and I would love to ditch some punctuation and make overlapping variable names illegal ($foo, @foo, %foo), but I'm not prepared to deal with python's whitespace-based syntax and uptight segregation of statement and expression. LISP I like too, but I haven't mucked with guile yet. I've also gotten over a lot of my initial tcl hatred and learned to respect it. I set up TkDesk for my mother and she loves it. Stig PS: This is an awfully off-topic thread... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 06:06:49 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:38:06 -0500 From: Michael McLay X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.18 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VB vs Unix (Was Digital Nervous System) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Tracy R Reed wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Cary B. O'Brien wrote: > > > Interestingly enough, in some ways ELF, the extension language > > built into Applixware comes close, and goes further in some ways. > > This kinda worries me in some ways. So far, Unix platforms have been free > of viruses. But if there were a really popular word processor (or any > other app that supported a sufficiently powerful embedded language) which > was stored in the documents (a la Word) we could have the first Unix virus > on our hands. The equivalent of a macro virus. I understand you concern and agree with you entirely. I also recoil at the creation of yet another language. There is nothing technically requiring Applixware to invent a language. They could have integrated Python, Perl, or TCL as the internal language. I'd say it is either the usual CS, "won't it be fun to create a new language" approach to application development or some historical notion that made them do this. Even Msoft has abandoned having multiple language in Office 97. The macro languages were replaced with a subset of VB. The Microsoft problem with viruses are inherent in a weak OS design. This problem can be avoided in Unix, because it is a much better OS design. But a successful extension language also require using a properly designing language to eliminate the possiblity of holes in the security. Python's very high level object design makes it a good candidate for this language niche. Python has a "restricted" mode which turns off dangerous operations. There is also a bastioning module and technique which allows yet another type of isolation between the scripting code and the application. Python's semantic model is very consistent. The "everything is an object" design of Python makes it very easy to grasp for someone who is not a CS type. The syntax of Python is also close to syntax of VB so the existing user base will find it relatively easy to switch to Python from VB. Finally, Python already directly usable as a replacement for VB on the MSoft platforms. The COM and ActiveX hooks from Windows allows Python to be used to program anything that VB can be used to program. This makes Python a good candidate for migrating talent from those other platforms. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 06:08:42 1998 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:28:43 -0500 From: Michael McLay X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.18 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VBasic vs ??? (was digital noivus system Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com John C Cusick wrote: > > >Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a > >batch and incremental compiler, string handling, and garbage > >collection. Hint: no line numbers. Furthermore, it can easily do > >both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? > > > > C? No garbage collection, infinite memory access > >errors, > > GUI way too hard, graphics way too hard > > C++? See above > > Perl? Language not suitable for large programs, no > >compiler > > Tcl/Tk? Too slow, no compiler > > > >Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. > > Python1.5 w/Tkinter is relatively close, don't you think ??? Yes, but I would use the Python Megawidgets (Pmw) extension on top of Tkinter. Take a look at http://www.dscpl.com.au/pmw/ for the examples of what Pmw can do. If you download the source the best way to view all the available widgets is to run the demos/All.py script. There are about 30 widgets that you can reuse from this toolbox. Of course the Python toolbox has many other interesting tools. For the business world it might be interesting to take a look at the Gadfly implementation of an SQL database written by Arron Waters. It is written entirely in Python, yet it is very fast. Arron claims the algorithms he uses are key to the performance. There is also a standard Python database API with drivers written for connecting to Oracle, Sybase and other commercial vendors. Some work has been started by Andrew Kuchling on developing a Spreadsheet extension for Python. The calculation engine is built, but so far there isn't a GUI. (Of course we all know that the GUI is the only important part of any real software:-) Finally if you are looking for an example of a larger application written entirely in Python the Grail Web browser makes a nice example. Grail currently isn't being developed and the table widget in Grail was written before the grid feature was added to Tk, so the table rendering is too slow for my liking. Also the HTML parser needs to be replaced with a faster, C based interface... Just in case someone has jumped into the middle of this thread, here's a short recap. Comments seem to be in favor of Perl if you like Perl, but if you don't like Perl it is because you consider code written in Perl to be unmaintainable. Perl seems to invoke a love it or hate it reaction. The thread is looking for the Unix equivalent of VB. While VB seems to be the language of choice for power users in the Windows world there is no clear winner for Unix/Linux. By power user I'm speaking about an intelligent person who can cobble together a VB script in an afternoon by stealing some existing code and making a few small changes. They then spend several hours a week over the next several years enhancing this initial small program. Eventually they have an application that is reasonable efficient for them to use, but it is often difficult for others to understand and maintain. This is one of the most important market for VB and Windows in one sense. There are about 10x more power users than programmers so providing these users with something better than VB is key to winning them over. A second reason for the importance of this market is that the power users are often the decision makers in selecting computer systems for organizations outside the control of IS. Now the question we need to answer is what makes a language better than VB. I am not asking what would a programmer like to see win. I'm asking what a power user would be willing to use. Given a choice they will stay with what they know, which is VB. Whatever comes along to replace it had better be pretty damn close to VB and it had better have some very compelling improvements over VB. This new language had better be as easy to learn as VB and it must also supported a rich set of very high level objects just like VB. Power users want very fat object that do very powerful things when they are used. They use scripts to do things like starting up a spreadsheet and automatically populating the cells of the spreadsheet. They aren't interested in learning the ten zillion special rules and syntactic shortcuts. The simpler the syntax and language rules the better. They just want to call objects from a simple control loop Having set the stage for what end users want, let me explain why I thing it would be a mistake to pick Perl for this task. Having to learn something as rich and complex as the Perl grammar rules would get in the way of using the language. They will want a higher early usage to learning ratio. What do you think? Is it safe to say that Perl is not a good language to give to a power users? That is, to someone who doesn't program for a living? Would you agree that picking a language that is easier to learn and use would be helpful in making Linux more competitive with the Windows/VB combination? Now what other choices do we have beside Perl. Hmm, Scheme, TCL and Python have been mentioned. I think Scheme can be dismissed for the same reason Perl is dropped. The syntax is very foreign to a power user. To this day I find the language difficult to follow if I haven't looked at the code for awhile. It's great for a CS type, but don't even think about asking an accountant to balance the book with (mortgage rate months * +). Yes, I know you can add a new syntax onto Scheme, but then it really isn't Scheme is it. The lack of comments from the TCL crowd has me puzzled. Before they do, I would like to point out one example that I think would cause many VB people to turn up their nose at TCL. In VB you write an assignment like this: variance = sum_of_squares - n * average * average In TCL it would look like this: set result($i, $j) [expr $scale * $normalize($i, $j)] (Yes I know the equation is incorrect, but I'm pointing out syntax here.) The first statement is also the syntax that would be used by Python. In general the syntax of TCL is going to turn off power users. It is too cluttered with punctuation that looks like some old sh script. There have been two comments stating that Python could be a good substitute for VB on Unix. I'm joining in with this camp so that makes three. It is very close to VB in some ways, but Python's has a real object model and some neat features from functional programming languages which make it much more powerful than VB. The coherent object model of Python actually makes it easier to teach than VB in some ways. One final note on Perl. It is interesting to note that Larry Wall borrowed much of the Perl 5.0 object model directly from Python. Unfortunately the Perl language, which was already heavily burdened with an arcane syntax, had to add the concept of extension modules and class hierarchies using a syntax which wasn't as human parsable as the Python syntax. The result is that Perl and Python have largely intersecting capabilities, but Perls syntax is something that only a diehard Perl fan can truly love. If you disagree please make sure your flames state your opinion in the context of a power users who must be convinced that your language has merit as a replacement for VB. Comments about the suitability for computer programmers are off topic, because I am not questioning the reasons why Perl and TCL might appeal to a programmer. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 06:09:40 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VB vs Unix (Was Digital Nervous System) To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:41:09 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Tracy R Reed wrote: > > > > On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Cary B. O'Brien wrote: > > > > > Interestingly enough, in some ways ELF, the extension language > > > built into Applixware comes close, and goes further in some ways. > > > > This kinda worries me in some ways. So far, Unix platforms have been free > > of viruses. But if there were a really popular word processor (or any > > other app that supported a sufficiently powerful embedded language) which > > was stored in the documents (a la Word) we could have the first Unix virus > > on our hands. The equivalent of a macro virus. > > I understand you concern and agree with you entirely. I also recoil at > the creation of yet another language. There is nothing technically > requiring Applixware to invent a language. They could have integrated > Python, Perl, or TCL as the internal language. I'd say it is either > the usual CS, "won't it be fun to create a new language" approach to > application development or some historical notion that made them do > this. I'd bet (*) ELF was around before Python was. Applix (nee Asterix) has been around for a _long_ time. Plus it has the drag-and-drop gui builder. There are similarities -- ELF can send structures over a wire like Python can with (what is it?) pickle. [good python stuff snipped] -- cary (*) a small number of fermented beverages ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 06:09:38 1998 Date: 20 Mar 1998 01:33:19 -0000 To: Michael Dillon Cc: linux-biz@lege.com, "Culture Jammers' HQ" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Can "Digital Nervous System" be co-opted? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wonder if Adbusters (http://www.adbusters.org/) could help us out... When I first saw Microsoft using "DNS" and "Digital Nervous System", it really pissed me off because I immediately recognized what a good marketing buzzword it was. Has it been trademarked? _Can_ it be suparated from Microsoft? You can often attack a slogan by undermining it, but DNS isn't something we want to undermine, it's something that we want to TAKE AWAY and that's more difficult...especially if litigation might be involved. Stig Michael Dillon wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Don Marti wrote: > > > There is no "digital nervous system." > > Sure there is, it's the Internet. Imagine what would happen if thousands > of people start talking about the planet's digital nervous system meaning > the Internet and the Internet standards and the open-source software that > built the Internet. Guess what? Microsoft doesn't have much of a place in > the planet's digital nervous system. They may dominate the client PC's > that are connected to the digital nervous system but the system itself > runs primarily on various flavors of UNIX and lots of open-source > applications like BIND, Apache, etc. [...] > > > Instead of getting hung up on this or that proprietary annoucement, > > let's concentrate on describing our Linux visions for the near future > > -- on the benefits we will offer. > > Instead of insulting and making fun of Microsoft, let's do some > *MARKETING* of the open-source concepts that led to the creation of a > planetary digital nervous system, namely, the Internet. > > Spin-doctoring is an incredibly powerful marketing tool, ya know. > > -- > Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting > http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 06:16:25 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:42:52 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Michael Dillon wrote: > > > > On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > > > > both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? > > > > Python is pretty darn close. Check out http://www.python.org for details. > > The main shortcoming of Python is that it depends on Tk for its > > cross-platform GUI but on Windows you can write non-portable Python code > > that directly uses the Windows GUI. At least one person is working on a > > non-Tk cross-platform GUI for Python that would presumably improve that > > situation. > > If you use the jpython version of Python you get all the java objects > thrown into the mix for free. (See http://www.python.org/jpython/ > OK. So does that mean I can call Oracle's 100% jave JDBC client from python on my trusty linux box? If so, you guys win. I have the book, I'll learn the language. Got an SNMP agent interface lying around? -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 07:01:42 1998 Date: 20 Mar 1998 01:33:19 -0000 To: Michael Dillon Cc: linux-biz@lege.com, "Culture Jammers' HQ" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Can "Digital Nervous System" be co-opted? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wonder if Adbusters (http://www.adbusters.org/) could help us out... When I first saw Microsoft using "DNS" and "Digital Nervous System", it really pissed me off because I immediately recognized what a good marketing buzzword it was. Has it been trademarked? _Can_ it be suparated from Microsoft? You can often attack a slogan by undermining it, but DNS isn't something we want to undermine, it's something that we want to TAKE AWAY and that's more difficult...especially if litigation might be involved. Stig Michael Dillon wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Don Marti wrote: > > > There is no "digital nervous system." > > Sure there is, it's the Internet. Imagine what would happen if thousands > of people start talking about the planet's digital nervous system meaning > the Internet and the Internet standards and the open-source software that > built the Internet. Guess what? Microsoft doesn't have much of a place in > the planet's digital nervous system. They may dominate the client PC's > that are connected to the digital nervous system but the system itself > runs primarily on various flavors of UNIX and lots of open-source > applications like BIND, Apache, etc. [...] > > > Instead of getting hung up on this or that proprietary annoucement, > > let's concentrate on describing our Linux visions for the near future > > -- on the benefits we will offer. > > Instead of insulting and making fun of Microsoft, let's do some > *MARKETING* of the open-source concepts that led to the creation of a > planetary digital nervous system, namely, the Internet. > > Spin-doctoring is an incredibly powerful marketing tool, ya know. > > -- > Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting > http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 07:01:52 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VB vs Unix (Was Digital Nervous System) To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:41:09 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Tracy R Reed wrote: > > > > On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Cary B. O'Brien wrote: > > > > > Interestingly enough, in some ways ELF, the extension language > > > built into Applixware comes close, and goes further in some ways. > > > > This kinda worries me in some ways. So far, Unix platforms have been free > > of viruses. But if there were a really popular word processor (or any > > other app that supported a sufficiently powerful embedded language) which > > was stored in the documents (a la Word) we could have the first Unix virus > > on our hands. The equivalent of a macro virus. > > I understand you concern and agree with you entirely. I also recoil at > the creation of yet another language. There is nothing technically > requiring Applixware to invent a language. They could have integrated > Python, Perl, or TCL as the internal language. I'd say it is either > the usual CS, "won't it be fun to create a new language" approach to > application development or some historical notion that made them do > this. I'd bet (*) ELF was around before Python was. Applix (nee Asterix) has been around for a _long_ time. Plus it has the drag-and-drop gui builder. There are similarities -- ELF can send structures over a wire like Python can with (what is it?) pickle. [good python stuff snipped] -- cary (*) a small number of fermented beverages ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 07:02:11 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:42:52 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Michael Dillon wrote: > > > > On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > > > > both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? > > > > Python is pretty darn close. Check out http://www.python.org for details. > > The main shortcoming of Python is that it depends on Tk for its > > cross-platform GUI but on Windows you can write non-portable Python code > > that directly uses the Windows GUI. At least one person is working on a > > non-Tk cross-platform GUI for Python that would presumably improve that > > situation. > > If you use the jpython version of Python you get all the java objects > thrown into the mix for free. (See http://www.python.org/jpython/ > OK. So does that mean I can call Oracle's 100% jave JDBC client from python on my trusty linux box? If so, you guys win. I have the book, I'll learn the language. Got an SNMP agent interface lying around? -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 07:18:19 1998 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:35:52 +0800 (HKT) From: Xia Hao To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > I have a 2K line perl program I wrote myself, and I'm going to be > rewriting it in something other than perl. Using 'strict' addresses > the variables-have-global-visibility problem, but I couldn't find a > satisfactory way to pass an arbitrary list of arbitrarily complex data > structures both into and out of subroutines. > isn't perl reference supposed to do that? and anyone has experience with perl-qt or perl-xforms as a GUI builder? axis ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 07:18:23 1998 Date: 20 Mar 1998 02:17:45 -0000 To: Michael Dillon CC: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] NT == Not Today X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks, that's the new soundbite for http://web.crushmicrosoft.com/ Not getting lots of hits today yet though... Let me know if we're missing vital pointers. Stig Michael Dillon and Jonathan Corbet wrote: > > > http://www.kirch.net/unix-nt.html > > > > It's a well-reasoned case, with good references and quotes. > > NT is also an excellent choice for managers who need to show that they > used up their fiscal year budget for hardware/software expenditures. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 07:19:35 1998 Date: 20 Mar 1998 02:44:03 -0000 To: "Willson, Bradley J" Cc: Michael Dillon , linux-biz@lege.com, "Culture Jammers' HQ" Subject: RE: [linux-biz] Can "Digital Nervous System" be co-opted? From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bradley J. Willson wrote: > > > I wonder if Adbusters (http://www.adbusters.org/) could help us out... > > > > When I first saw Microsoft using "DNS" and "Digital Nervous System", it > > really pissed me off because I immediately recognized what a good > > marketing buzzword it was. > > > > Has it been trademarked? _Can_ it be separated from Microsoft? > > > > DNS means Domain Name Service in my book (and a slew of Linux > software), so would that help in a trademark battle? Unix was using it > first? It has shades of another Linux trademark dispute. > While I think there's some room for a court case to establish that names are often engineered to become catchy acronyms, I don't know how defensable that position would be. It would be an interesting case. Even if we have a prior claim on DNS, we couldn't prevent people from abbreviating "Digital Nervous System" as DNS on their own...we'd only be able to fend of that little (R) if/when Microsoft used the acronym. Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 10:01:35 1998 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Paul Foley Date: 20 Mar 1998 16:38:15 +1200 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.3 - "Vatican City" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:10:12 -0500, Brian Bartholomew wrote: >> Lisp, Scheme > Great language, but no GUI or graphics bindings. Or at least not for > any of the well-known Unix Lisp variants I hear about. Common Lisp has CLIM. AFAIK, there's no (working) CLIM on Linux, though. There is a FreeCLIM project around, somewhere. The older CLUE/CLIO stuff comes with CMUCL. Franz have free ACL 4.3 for Linux, but no CLIM and Composer :-( (See www.franz.com) -- Paul Foley --- PGP-encrypted mail preferred PGP key ID 0x1CA3386D available from keyservers fingerprint = 4A 76 83 D8 99 BC ED 33 C5 02 81 C9 BF 7A 91 E8 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 10:10:57 1998 From: linas@linas.org To: cobrien@access.digex.net (Cary B. O'Brien) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:24:45 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text Subject: [linux-biz] Applix X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > > I'd bet (*) ELF was around before Python was. Applix (nee Asterix) has been > around for a _long_ time. I had applix running on an IBM RT (an early risc machine) in '87. Don't know if it had elf, tho. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 10:11:01 1998 From: linas@linas.org To: mclay@erols.com (Michael McLay) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 03:34:21 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text Subject: [linux-biz] VBasic vs Scheme? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > > >Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. FYI, but jade, the DSSSL app for handling XML documents uses this scheme-like thing as the document-formating language. Since Microsoft is pushing XML pretty hard with all those press releases, a lot of people are trying to learn it. Many of them promptly get shunted to DSSSL once they have to start handling real documents, and thus they learn jade & scheme. So, in this funny, round-about way, microsoft is encouraging folks to learn a dialect of LISP. And you thought LISP was dead. There. I thought you'd like that :-). --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 16:01:34 1998 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:26:09 +0100 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com At 08:43 1998-03-19 -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: >On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > >> both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? > >Python is pretty darn close. Check out http://www.python.org for details. >The main shortcoming of Python is that it depends on Tk for its >cross-platform GUI but on Windows you can write non-portable Python code >that directly uses the Windows GUI. At least one person is working on a >non-Tk cross-platform GUI for Python that would presumably improve that >situation. There is (although I haven't used it) a wxWindows interface, and that works with at least both MS Win and X. There are also a number of platform specific GUIs for Python, and that's not less good than VB... The obvious thing that VB has and Python lacks is a drag and drop GUI builder. Personally I think I prefer to write my code rather than to point and click it - but others might think otherwise. As far as I understand, VB programs can now be compiled and get reasonably fast, while Python due to it's dynamic nature is really difficult to compile beyond the bytecode. That's obviously another drawback, even if the combination Python / C seems to work very well, and solves a lot of performance issues. With PTUI I even have (almost) identical IDE for Python in both Windows and Unix, with syntax-coloring, on-line help, object browser and some other goodies. The nice thing is the language though, not the development interface. It's about as compact as Perl to code in, maybe a third of Java or C on the average, but very easy to read once you get used to the absence of '{' / '}' or 'BEGIN' / 'END'. Having coded in Python for some time, I'm starting to feel that all other languages I've worked with are really stupid... ;-) Another interesting thing is JPython - python reimplemented in Java. That also gives you access to a platform independent GUI. (Java isn't available at quite as many platforms as python I suppose, but it might eventually be...) Magnus -- Magnus Lycka, S/W Engineer, M.Sc.E.E; Folktrov. 6C, 907 51 Umea, Sweden Tel: +46(0)90 198 498, GSM: +46(0)70 582 80 65, Fax: +46(0)70 612 80 65 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 17:01:40 1998 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:13:30 +0100 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Magnus Lycka Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [linux-biz] A Unix 'VB', was: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com At 11:38 1998-03-19 -0600, David Tillman wrote: > VB is not the answer. I speak from experience. I have written > many large projects in VB in years past and have found that > its only real virtue is as an easy GUI builder for windows. But I think the GUI builder is vital. In my experience, most non- programmers have a problem seeing through the surface of computers and lifting their awareness to a decent level of abstraction. For them the surface is everything, because that's all they see. This is nothing we can 'correct' - it's something we have to understand and adapt to. (BTW, having used other GUI buiders, such as JAM, I find VB fairly primitive, so there isn't _that_ much to compete with... ;-) I've had intelligent customers with a lot of user experience who've just gotten a blank look in their eyes when I try to discuss something that goes beyond the GUI in software they have specified. These people typically believe that GUI mock-ups constitute a system specification. Even if most power users will (given the chance) become aware of the issues that matter, the tricky thing is to get their attention before they reach this 'level of understanding'. I think this is the area where Microsoft are doing a really good job. It's fairly quick for a beginner to achieve something that looks rather impressive with their products. That this approach will leave you with a big mess in the long run is something you'll have to find out in time, and most people think it has to be like that, since they never make any serious efforts to use tools like unix, python or LaTeX. The first impression is really important. If we want a big market, we need products that give a good first impression to people who don't have a lot of prior experience. Linux could do that if the GUI was right - KDE looks promising. Python is the programming language I believe in most as a VB replacement, but I think it needs a GUI builder. LaTeX... beyond hope for the masses I believe. But hopefully the free word processing tool that will conquer the world will be based on XML or something like that so we have a decent file format to deal with. And hopefully it will focus on structure and logic rather than layout. Magnus -- Magnus Lycka, S/W Engineer, M.Sc.E.E; Folktrov. 6C, 907 51 Umea, Sweden Tel: +46(0)90 198 498, GSM: +46(0)70 582 80 65, Fax: +46(0)70 612 80 65 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 17:06:05 1998 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:30:51 -0700 (MST) From: Darren Boyd To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Applix, and every other off-topic thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com First, let me say, I am not complaining. I've enjoyed the threads that have gone through lin-biz the last couple of days. However: They are beginning to go way off topic. Figuring out how Linux can acquire a popular, simple 4gl, drag-and-drop, development package is great. Comparing python to perl to applix syntax is not relevant to lin-biz. Once again, I enjoyed the converstaion, I do feel *some of it* it belongs somewhere else. Remember, this list prides itself on high signal to noise ratio :-). Thanks, Darren Darren Boyd | dboyd@its.to Home Page and Public Key | http://www.its.to/~dboyd ----------------------------|-------------------------------- The moment of victory is much too short to live for that and nothing else. -Martina Navrtilova ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 18:01:34 1998 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:11:16 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Michael McLay cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VBasic vs ??? (was digital noivus system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Michael McLay wrote: > Just in case someone has jumped into the middle of this thread, here's > a short recap. Comments seem to be in favor of Perl if you like Perl, > but if you don't like Perl it is because you consider code written in > Perl to be unmaintainable. Perl seems to invoke a love it or hate it > reaction. Perl seems very well suited as a scripting or batch language, as a natural extension of Bourne Shell scripting and flexibility orders of magnitude beyond what's available in Windows .BAT files. It seems to be a good choice for people who have not yet fully come to terms with OO concepts (and I submit there are still lots of us^H^Hthem around :-). But that's not totally relevant to the subject at hand (which we can recall by just looking at the Subject of the mail on this thread). If everyone had to code significant things in Visual Basic by manually writing the code, I don't think it would be very well used; what makes it popular is an easy-to-use RAD tool that, in the MS mind-set, is almost inseparable from the language itself. To many, the strength of VB is not in any inherent superiority of the language itself, but in the strength and flexibility of its graphical application builder. For this reason, I'm confused about the point of this discussion, which has in some spots turned into a near-religious discussion of favourite languages. It seems to ignore that a comparison of anything-to-VisualBasic requires dealing not with the quality of the language, but the quality of tools available for those who have just read "Programming for Dummies". Want to argue Python vs. Scheme? Great, it's something I would love to follow myself. But that debate is irrelevant to the original question that asked for a reasonable Unix alternative to VB. Such an alternative would *have* to have a strong, inexpensive, easy-to-use RAD tool. > The thread is looking for the Unix equivalent of VB. ...which is *not* asking "what's your favourite language" or even "what's the best language". It's asking what the Unix world has that comes close to the features *that have made VB popular*. For this reason, I will re-introduce something I suggested at the beginning of this thread, that appeared to be dismissed almost as quickly as it was mentioned; Java. Java seems to have a few things going for it; while parts of the language (at this point, mainly the add-on libraries) are in flux, enough of a language exists to allow development of software such as Lotus eSuite. The syntax and typing are nailed down. It also has very significant public awareness, which is necessary to cope with MS' marketing machine. One thing that Java has, similarly to VB, that the other languages mentioned here don't, is an easy-for-dummies inexpensive RAD tool. Come to think of it, there are a few different ones; Symantec Cafe and Borland JBuilder are two that come to mind quickly. I've seen Cafe, and it's not very different in concept from VB; it's even marketed similarly, with different tiers depending on how elaborate are one's programming needs. I've seen a Lite version included with some Java books. Then there are always the tools Sun itself provides. While the origin of this thread was the announcement by MS that a dozen or so ISVs would be supporting VB, Java's multi-vendor support is far superior. And, unlike VB, I have seen many books on Java that go beyond the RAD builder into milking the language for all its worth. Java seems to be a language that one can use to build quick-and-dirty business mini-applications (like VB), and then be extended into major commercially- resellable apps (how many commercial apps today are written in VB?) Indeed, some of the criticisms against Java are valid, and I don't see it replacing Scheme or Python etc. as the tool of choice for many. But I am advancing the point in *addressing the question at hand*, in advancing the position that Java is the non-Microsoft world's answer to VB. > There are about 10x more power users than programmers so providing these > users with something better than VB is key to winning them over. A > second reason for the importance of this market is that the power users > are often the decision makers in selecting computer systems for > organizations outside the control of IS. Now the question we need to > answer is what makes a language better than VB. But that's not the *whole* question! VB isn't popular just because the *language* is so darned good, it's because the RAD tools are good enough to do what most people need. And I have always maintained that Microsoft's success has come from turn the concept of "good enough" into an art form. Those of you who are merely debating features of the language are missing the point that VB's main appeal is in its development tools, not the language itself. > I am not asking what would a programmer like to see win. I'm asking > what a power user would be willing to use. Given a choice they will > stay with what they know, which is VB. Whatever comes along to > replace it had better be pretty damn close to VB and it had better > have some very compelling improvements over VB. The main advantages of Java over VB are these, IMO: - extensibility/scalability; Java offers more than VB once your skill goes beyond the capabilities of the simple RAD tool. It is well documented and supported from many, MANY different sources and it is inherently Internet-friendly. - portability; someone who wants to keep their options open to the possibility of running their code on the smallest Network Computers, the largest Unix systems, everything in-between and practically anything that can run a Web browser, can do so with Java; and because of its RAD tools, making such portable tools are no more difficult with Java than with VB. - Multiple sources, not just of supporting programmers but supporting tool vendors. With VB one has *one* choice of a RAD tool -- Microsoft's. With Java, you have a good number of vendors, *including* Microsoft, offering Java development tools. Do you like JBuilder better than Cafe? You have such a choice; in VB you don't -- you take what MS gives you or you don't use it. Note I am *not* talking about things such as garbage collection or strong typing or other such language intricacies. Most people who use VB, these so-called non-programmer power users, don't care about these things; so talking in these terms won't win them over to anything else. > This new language had better be as easy to learn as VB and it must > also supported a rich set of very high level objects just like VB. I believe Java satisfies this. > Having set the stage for what end users want, let me explain why I > thing it would be a mistake to pick Perl for this task. Having to > learn something as rich and complex as the Perl grammar rules would > get in the way of using the language. They will want a higher early > usage to learning ratio. Perl, by and large, serves a different purpose than VB or Java. It's not OO but it's very powerful batch/scripting language and extremely simple to use and powerful as a parser/translator. I may be the only one here advocating the position that different problems might require different tools, and that no one language is "best" for everything. But so be it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan Leibovitch * Xunil Computing * Brampton, Ontario, Canada * www.xunil.com Supporting Intel-based Unix and Linux since 1985 * Caldera & SCO authorized Windows NT: The Mister Hankey of operating systems ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 22:01:55 1998 To: evan@telly.org, linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:15:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [linux-biz] TQM (was VBasic vs ???) X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 From: jcc2@juno.com (John C Cusick) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:11:16 -0500 (EST) Evan Leibovitch writes: >On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Michael McLay wrote: > >But that's not totally relevant to the subject at hand (which we can >recall by just looking at the Subject of the mail on this thread). > >If everyone had to code significant things in Visual Basic by manually >writing the code, I don't think it would be very well used; what makes >it popular is an easy-to-use RAD tool that, in the MS mind-set, is almost >inseparable from the language itself. To many, the strength of VB is >not in any inherent superiority of the language itself, but in the >strength and flexibility of its graphical application builder. > >For this reason, I'm confused about the point of this discussion, >which has in some spots turned into a near-religious discussion of favourite >languages. It seems to ignore that a comparison of >anything-to-VisualBasic >requires dealing not with the quality of the language, but the quality >of tools available for those who have just read "Programming for >Dummies". There is a very good book put out by PC Press that discusses RAD (I think that is the title, and I don't remember the author - the book is at home and I'm not) And it discusses RAD in the dos/win environment. Evan' response is the synopsis :-) > >But that's not the *whole* question! VB isn't popular just because the >*language* is so darned good, it's because the RAD tools are good >enough to do what most people need. And I have always maintained that >Microsoft's success has come from turn the concept of "good enough" into an art >form. > > For those who have gone through various TQM courses or work in a TQM environment ( Total Quality Management ) "good enough" is an art form perfected by many, not just MS. Speaking from TQ experience, although not a "software" TQ experience, TQM basically means if a customer orders a VW Beetle, you don't ship him a Cadillac. you ship him a VW - with a radio. Meet his expectations, and then give him a little extra. For the average "learn any language in 21 days" type (like me) VB isn't bad. I don't like it. and I didn't get past day 6 or 7 (6 or 7 weeks would be a more accurate title in my opinion), but the bottom line is I could do some simple stuff quick, and I got a better handle on the subset used within Word. Excel, and Access which is the software of choice for this Co.'s management. > > >The main advantages of Java over VB are these, IMO: --- snip --- I think it''s time to buy "Learn Java in 21 Days" :-) JC _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 20 23:00:57 1998 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:44:11 -0500 (EST) From: Elliot Lee To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a > batch and incremental compiler, string handling, and garbage > collection. Hint: no line numbers. Furthermore, it can easily do > both GUI and graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? > > C? No garbage collection, infinite memory access errors, > GUI way too hard, graphics way too hard > C++? See above You're confusing the language with the environment... But I don't think that's relevant - these languages aren't good for rapid prototyping like VB is. > Perl? Language not suitable for large programs, no compiler > Tcl/Tk? Too slow, no compiler > > Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. Python or Scheme (I know I'm missing another language here, but it's of no consequence ATM). Python is bytecode compilable (and there's a python interpreter in Java, too ;-) Guile (the GNU scheme implementation) has a compiler as well IIRC. Python has nice interfaces to the Gtk, Qt, and Tk toolkits (among others). There is a Guile interface to Gtk, I know, and the language interfaces to C (and therefore other languages) well. Python & Guile both perform well (although guile startup times are rather abysmal in the present released version, 1.2, this has been fixed in the development snapshots). -- Elliot http://www.redhat.com/ Chicken Little was right. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 21 14:00:54 1998 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:15:02 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: carlier@iguana.be cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Excuse my French ;-) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Kris Carlier is not subscribed, even if carlier@iguana.be is! The below post didn't make it: (Now Cc'd to the list!) On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Kris Carlier wrote: > > http://www.liberation.com/multi/enquetes/enq980313a.html > > kr= > > \\\___/// > \\ - - // > ( @ @ ) > +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+ > | kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be | > | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 | > | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion | > | SMS: +32-75-61.43.05 | > +------------------------Oooo-------------+ > oooO ( ) > ( ) ) / > \ ( (_/ > \_) > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 21 14:01:13 1998 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:18:14 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: corin@ooloi.dyn.ml.org cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Call to Arms X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com corin@ooloi.dyn.ml.org is not subscribed to Linux Business Discussion Group even though corin@ricochet.net is, so the below post didn't make it -- this reply is Cc'd to the list though: / Leif On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 corin@ooloi.dyn.ml.org wrote: > I agree with Michael Dillon that Linux-biz people should be on the front > lines of evangelizing Open Source solutions to businesses. These > interminable discussions of VB vs. Perl et. al. are rather tedious. Why > don't we use this list to ORGANIZE ourselves and pool resources. Let's > have less talk and more action. > > How many Linux solutions providers are on this list? How can we help > Linux consultants win in competitive bidding? Let's have those who have > successfully won bids tell their stories. What worked, what was hard. > What could the rest of us help with. What paperwork do we need to learn? > What industries would be easy targets? These are the topics this list was > created to address. Let's get to it. > > Someone mentioned working with Linux International to help evangelize > Linux. Can someone tell me what LI actually does beyond having a web page > and attending conferences? Do they really do anything? Do they need our > help? Are they a good umbrella for Linux solutions evangelism, or would > they just be a time sink? > > Frankly, I'm concerned that since Netscape's announcement that we have a > short window of opportunity where corporate IS may be very receptive to > Open Source solutions if we do the work to present them well. If we don't > sieze the moment, the window will close, and we'll be back to the same > uphill battle. Let's accelerate the curve quickly while we've got the > chance. > > Yours in action, > > Corin Royal Drummond > Oakland, California > > > __________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 21 14:01:16 1998 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:11:44 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Cynthia Deno cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Freely Distributed Software Track at USENIX Annual Conference X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Cynthia, You are not a subscribed member on linux-biz@lege.com, so the below post didn't make it -- but I think it is worthwile, so I'm Cc'ing thing reply to linux-biz@lege.com: On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Cynthia Deno wrote: > Share ideas with developers and avid users of freely redistributable > software--Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and more--at the > > 23RD ANNUAL USENIX TECHNICAL CONFERENCE > Includes FREENIX, the Freely Redistributable Software Track > June 15-19, 1998 > New Orleans, Louisiana > > Sponsored by USENIX, the Advanced Computing Systems Association > FREENIX is co-sponsored by The FreeBSD Project, Linux International, The > NetBSD Foundation, Inc., and The OpenBSD Project > > ================================================ > Full program and on-line registration: > http://www.usenix.org/events/no98/ > Phone: 1.714.588.8649 > Email: conference@usenix.org > ================================================ > > FREENIX, a Special Track within the conference, showcases the latest > developments and interesting applications in freely redistributable > software. FREENIX offers 28 talks, plus evening BoF sessions. Talk > to the developers of FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD and more. > Engage in the sharing not only of ideas, but actual code. > > Tutorials let you master complex technologies. Choose among 22 in-depth > tutorials on Monday and Tuesday. Register early - tutorials often fill up > fast. You can use our on-line registration form. > > *System & Network Performance Tuning *Solaris Internals > *Classic Topics in System Admin *Hot Topics in System Admin > *Inside the Linux Kernel *Linux Systems Administration > *Essential UNIX Programming *UNIX Network Programming > *Cryptography Applications *Secure Communications > *CGI and WWW Programming in Perl *UNIX Security Tools > *Intro to Java *Advanced Java > *Intro to Perl for Programmers *Network Security Profiles > *Internet Security for UNIX Sysadmins *Windows NT Security > *Security Around the World Wide Web *Sendmail Configuration > *Troubleshooting Firewalls *Web & Intranet Performance > > For cutting-edge research that will put you ahead of the technology > curve, there are refereed papers. Topics are of especially high > current interest: > > *Java *Tcl security *web server performance *quality of service > *networking *security *performance *extensibility > > The Invited Talks concentrate on the extremely practical. Additional talks > look to what looms ahead, e.g., clustered computing and John Quarterman's > view of the future of the Internet. > > Other highlights include: > *Dennis Ritchie with a perspective on the original UNIX paper. > *Steve Mann discussing soon-to-be fashions in wearable computers. > *The "Amazing Randi" revealing how unscientific some science can be. > > Test drive the latest products in the expanded Exhibition Hall. Vendors > will be demonstrating a wide variety of UNIX, networking, and > administration products. > > Whether you are new to USENIX or a veteran of USENIX conferences, > please join us in New Orleans this June. > > Fred Douglis Jon "maddog" Hall > Program Chair FREENIX Program Chair > AT&T Labs - Research Digital Equipment Corporation > > ============================================================= > USENIX is the Advanced Computing Systems Association. Its > members are the computer technologists responsible for many of > the innovations in computing we enjoy today. Visit our web > site: http://www.usenix.org > > > > __________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 21 16:01:37 1998 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:34:40 +0100 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Magnus Lycka Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [linux-biz] VB replacement requirements X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Since the issue of a 'Visual Basic replacement' seems to be a matter of importance, and since language comparisions neither really belong in this forum, nor suits this phase of the discussion, it might be better to focus on what requirements such a product should have. Then we can continue the technical discussions in other fora. One question is obviously whether this should be a free product, or if a commercial product would be better suited for the power users. I guess Delphi or Symantec Café could be very useful on Linux, and give it a boost. I guess products that run under unix today, such as JAM would be simpler to port, but they are usually more expensive and not really suited to non-programmers. On one hand, this product should be simple to use, and preferably 'graphical'. On the other hand, it should also take advantage of the advantages of unix/linux. I don't think it's a disadvantage if this is a unix only tool. After all, it should be a tool to move people away from Windows. Right? (One could imagine a crippled functionality under Windows: "Sorry, you can only do this in a real Operating System.") I have a big wish list. I'm sure there isn't any product out there that fulfills all this, but it might form a basis for discussing what is really needed. Please don't present candidates or rule out certain languages at this time. Just think about requirements. What is missing? What could be removed? What is most important? I've tried to include psycological aspects as well as functional. * It should be a robust application with good finish. It should look nice! * It should also be simple to produce robust programs with good finish. * It should be feature rich, but still understandable. This calls for a well thought out organisation of the user interface! * It should be an integrated development environment. An application, not just a language. * It should be a RAD environment: It should be possible to run the newly created code with the press of a button. * It should come with a graphical debugger. * It should contain a class browser, context sensitive help etc. * It should contain a good GUI builder. The main product here is a screen layout tool, but there are also aspects like pull down menues and inter screen navigation that should be considered. * It should also be helpful for writing non-GUI programs - I don't know if the GUI builder needs to be as central as in VB. * It should be possible to design 'controls' / mega-widgets / graphical classes that can be used in other projects directly or sub-classed. * It should take care of 'project management issues'. You shouldn't have to edit any make files etc. * It should intergrate well with the OS through pipes etc. * It should be reasonably simple to extend applications with code written in other languages (mainly C/C++). * It would be nice if this language (maybe not the entire application) worked well for embedding in other applications. * The underlying language should be a higher level language than C etc, with proper built in support for lists, associative arrays etc. It should preferably have a reasonably simple and not to exotic syntax. * I should be provided with plenty of examples and good online documentation. * It should come with helpful wizards, for the newbie who don't know where to start. (I guess this should be generalized to a GUI macro tool so that it's simple both to make these wizards and to automate design of applications.) The wizards should be able to produce skeletons for 'hot' applications such as web browsers, spreadsheets, 'explorer style' programs etc. * It should be an open source system, and applications made with it should be unrestrained licence-wise. * It should be simple to install,and configure. It shouldn't depend on any non-standard components. (If it does, they should be included and get installed as well.) * The generated applications should be easy to install, and they should also not depend on other non-standard components. some kind of installation packaging tools should be included. * It should be bundled with integrated tools for: - database connectivity - report generator - internet connectivity - business graphics / charts - multimedia * It should be well integrated in the standard X11 / Linux environment wrt cut'n'paste, drag'n'drop etc. I guess it should use the right X toolkit - which ever that is... * It should be associated with proper buzz-words: Internet ready, Object oriented, component blaha blaha. * It should have a catchy name. * It should be actively developed. * It should have a large user base (right from the beginning! ;-) * It should be well supported. Phew, this seems like a gargantuan thing. I guess this list needs to be stripped down rather much for the first issue at least! ;-) Magnus -- Magnus Lycka, S/W Engineer, M.Sc.E.E; Folktrov. 6C, 907 51 Umea, Sweden Tel: +46(0)90 198 498, GSM: +46(0)70 582 80 65, Fax: +46(0)70 612 80 65 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 21 21:02:43 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] No techies, please (?) To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:56:43 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > I get very tired of all of the "let's not get technical on this list" > postings. Just when things get interesting, everyone objects. Even though > I do have a strong interest in commercial uses of Linux, I have an even > stronger interest in the technical aspects. > > Does anyone one know of a more appropriate list for me to subscribe to? Or > is this "other, more technical list" mythical? > A new list might not be the answer. This is a pretty good list, with a bunch of interesting threads of discussion going on. I think the "cross-pollination" between discussions is important. Might I suggest 1) Keeping subject lines in replies/followups correct. I myself am often guilty of leaving the Subject: line unchanged when the topic has drifted away from the original message. 2) If necessary, insert [TECH] when things get technical. Many newsgroups (comp.os.linux.announce, rec.autos.vw) have such informal conventions that help people sort things out. -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 21 21:06:16 1998 From: Roger Hardwicke To: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:33:11 -0500 Subject: [linux-biz] No techies, please (?) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I get very tired of all of the "let's not get technical on this list" postings. Just when things get interesting, everyone objects. Even though I do have a strong interest in commercial uses of Linux, I have an even stronger interest in the technical aspects. Does anyone one know of a more appropriate list for me to subscribe to? Or is this "other, more technical list" mythical? Roger ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 21 22:01:43 1998 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:22:17 +0000 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Roger Hardwicke CC: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] No techies, please (?) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Roger Hardwicke wrote: > I get very tired of all of the "let's not get technical on this list" > postings. Just when things get interesting, everyone objects. Even though > I do have a strong interest in commercial uses of Linux, I have an even > stronger interest in the technical aspects. > > Does anyone one know of a more appropriate list for me to subscribe to? Or > is this "other, more technical list" mythical? > > Roger > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe Tech subjects do get discussed without tension at linux-list@ssc.com. Brad Willson ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 22 00:00:56 1998 X-face: &@N3QE9h|>f`igFCkZ'a1`z=nNLXb}k>H(79G"V?@!&*yn)uhPBctF1vc}LD'{OA%$bs X+l[wN,I^G8kKj2NFxQrr@1C4QBC]hq5-%ZkV,^Zl/qE<0`zCQ1nM+]-N<^WG[H)]?d) A:L9AFgOU[BjbaY)uBAMz}h!fm^O0# To: Dwight Johnson cc: Bernard Lang , Linux-Business , pb@zip.mail-list.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system From: Piete Brooks Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:25:28 +0000 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > CAML, ML and HOL seem to be virtually unknown outside of France. > What can you tell us about them? Our local guru suggests http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/meta-lang-faq/faq.html for ML and CAML, but that does not include HOL (which is used heavily in some of our research groups -- it's one of the first "speed" tests we do on a new machine -- the 50 CT we have was giving a HOL demo in the US within a week of it having been purchased). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 22 06:01:00 1998 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 18:32:20 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Leif Erlingsson cc: corin@ooloi.dyn.ml.org, linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com One of the best ways to decrease the signal/noise ratio of a mailing list is to spend more time talking about what should be talked about, than actually talking about it ;-). On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > corin@ooloi.dyn.ml.org is not subscribed to > Linux Business Discussion Group > even though corin@ricochet.net is, so the below post > didn't make it -- this reply is Cc'd to the list though: Thanks for reposting it, Leif. > > I agree with Michael Dillon that Linux-biz people should be on the front > > lines of evangelizing Open Source solutions to businesses. These > > interminable discussions of VB vs. Perl et. al. are rather tedious. Why > > don't we use this list to ORGANIZE ourselves and pool resources. Let's > > have less talk and more action. Well, some of us *are* trying to go beyond mere talk. The purpose of this particular piece of email is that I am asking for suggestions from this group regarding a choice I need to make about my own efforts. There are certain initiatives on which I'm working, towards an active advocacy effort about which I can't offer too many details now. But I have to make a choice: - Advocacy supporting Linux only - Advocacy supporting *all* Unix-on-Intel systems Background: My company is a Linux solutions provider (Canada's first Caldera Business Partner), but we also sell and support UnixWare (from the very beginning, and through its evolution of control by Univel, then Novell, and now SCO). I may be one of the only people in the Linux community who believes Linux and SCO UnixWare can be complementary products, not competitive. While our own sales are about 10:1 in favour of Linux, the SCO component is still pretty critical to us at the high end. I understand that Linux needs advocacy, but frankly, I believe that the *entire* Unix-on-Intel field needs it too. Here's what I mean. 1) It's The Applications, Stupid -------------------------------- In my time as an integrator, the only time I have ever lost bids to NT proposals was when the end-user needed to have an application that would run on neither Linux nor UnixWare. Sometimes an equivalent app will do (HylaFAX rather than WinFax in one specific bid) but sometimes the end-user insists on a specific app which only supports Microsoft. SCO is hurt by this, but so is Linux. When a company such as SBT, which made one of the more-popular accounting systems for SCO Unix, says it's dropping SCO support because it runs under FoxPro and MS owns FoxPro, that hurts Linux too because then it won't run under Linux's iBCS emulation. Broadly-based applications availability is IMO *critical* to encouraging business use of Linux. It is my belief at this time (though I'm open to reasons why not) that it is in the interest of the Linux, BSD and SCO communities to make this work. Both the SCO and the Linux communities have something to offer the other when it comes to promoting ISVs to make (or maintain) Intel-Unix versions of their software. SCO offers a mature installed base, of users who have demonstrated a historical willingness to pay for software. The Linux base, while not as mature, offers huge numbers that demonstrate that this platform has not only more sheer numbers than NT, but also faster growth. We can, together, demonstrate that MS's hype-building of NT momentum are just that -- hype. 2) Sometimes, good advocacy isn't cheap. ---------------------------------------- An Intel-Unix advocacy group can also count on (significantly) more funding than a Linux-only one. Red Hat and Caldera are doing OK, but I'm sure they're not making a real pile of money selling software for $50 or $60. Even if they're selling a lot of copies, they have significant expenses in support, marketing, and the people who develop non-revenue-producing things like RPM and COAS also need to eat. IOW, the Linux field, on its own, has lots of energy but not a whole lot of money. OTOH, look at SCO and its partners and you can start getting funding from companies such as Compaq, Data General and Unisys, firms that have staked their own futures on Intel platforms and have an interest in promoting them against the RISC-Unix companies. Then there are Intel, AMD and Cyrix themselves. I've been to trade shows where Microsoft has a significant presence, hardware vendors such as HP and IBM sit on the fence, and nobody flies the Unix flag, so to speak. Such presence may be too expensive for Red Hat *or* Caldera *or SCO *or* Unisys alone -- but it could be sustainable by a co-operative venture to which all contribute a piece. 3) Caught in the middle in the media ------------------------------------ Both SCO and the Linux community have an interest in fighting an increasing laziness in the computer media, that seems to be bent on describing a battle between Intel/Microsoft and Unix/RISC. Sun and HP are usually championed as the leaders of the Unix community even though their installed bases are smaller than SCO's (and *pale* next to Linux). SCO and the Linux communities, working together, have the combination of resources and energy to fight this. Both sides have an interest in promoting the combination of Intel platforms and Unix/Linux OS as the best of both worlds. --------------- See, while I believe in the benefits of the Open Source model, but I think that only goes so far on its own. We also have to convince the computing public that the platform we advocate is a reasonable one before we can sell the benefits of its distribution/cost model. If it was possible to get them talking, do you thin that SCO and the Linux community have something in common? Does you believe that SCO is just as big a problem as MS, or do you think (as I do) that SCO is far less of a threat to Linux than Microsoft? And, yes, I know full well that SCO (actually, one of its sales agents) sent a November letter attacking Linux to many users. This letter was a HUGE embarrassment within SCO, and I think that guilt over that incident can actually be exploited to our mutual benefit. Would SCO go along with such a group, knowing full well that people will look at the platform and choose Linux over SCO? May be. The stakes are high and I think SCO sees NT as more of a threat than Linux. I *know* that there is a sentiment withing SCO that a client who chooses Linux is at least staying with Unix and keeps the Unix user base high. If they're going to lose market share they'd rather lose it to Linux than to NT. I have already received indications from within SCO (don't ask for details) that it may be willing to support such a joint effort if it's presented right. Comments are invited, even if you think I'm wrong, I want to know. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan Leibovitch * Xunil Computing * Brampton, Ontario, Canada * www.xunil.com Supporting Intel-based Unix and Linux since 1985 * Caldera & SCO authorized Windows NT: The Mister Hankey of operating systems ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 22 06:01:52 1998 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:15:41 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Comments are invited, even if you think I'm wrong, I want to know. This was an excellent analysis of the situation and the solution you propose is a good one. Whenever I advocate Linux I try to avoid doing so at the expense of other UNIX platforms because I believe that the other flavors of UNIX are not the enemy but Microsoft is. There would still be a place for Linux advocacy outside of the joint x86-UNIX promotion that you propose but I hope that we can all refrain from attacking other UNIX solutions, even commercial ones such as SCO. The real choice that the customer must make is between NT and UNIX. If SCO or FreeBSD helps the customer to choose other than NT then that is best for all of us. -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 22 06:09:28 1998 From: coder@ibm.net Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 18:24:35 -0800 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] More about digital nervous system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.40 b40 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On 18/03/98 at 11:17 PM, Brian Bartholomew said: >Visual Basic isn't TRS-80 or C= 64 BASIC. It's a fine language with a >batch and incremental compiler, string handling, and garbage collection. >Hint: no line numbers. Furthermore, it can easily do both GUI and >graphics. What does Unix have to compete with it? > C? No garbage collection, infinite memory access errors, > GUI way too hard, graphics way too hard > C++? See above > Perl? Language not suitable for large programs, no compiler > Tcl/Tk? Too slow, no compiler >Unix would do well do develop a language as useful as Visual Basic. Python, -- J C Lawrence Internet: claw@null.net ----------(*) Internet: coder@ibm.net ...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 22 10:03:37 1998 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:46:41 +0000 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Dillon CC: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Michael Dillon wrote: > On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > Comments are invited, even if you think I'm wrong, I want to know. > > This was an excellent analysis of the situation and the solution you > propose is a good one. Whenever I advocate Linux I try to avoid doing so > at the expense of other UNIX platforms because I believe that the other > flavors of UNIX are not the enemy but Microsoft is. There would still be a > place for Linux advocacy outside of the joint x86-UNIX promotion that you > propose but I hope that we can all refrain from attacking other UNIX > solutions, even commercial ones such as SCO. The real choice that the > customer must make is between NT and UNIX. If SCO or FreeBSD helps the > customer to choose other than NT then that is best for all of us. > > -- > Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting > http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe Agreed. I suggest some light reading for those interested in a tactical approach to MS, Musashi's "Book of Five Rings". The text has been used as a training guide for MBA's and the like...perhaps the methodology has merit in this arena? Regards, Bradley J. Willson www.ifixcomputers.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 22 19:03:02 1998 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:43:55 -0700 From: Evelyn Mitchell To: "Bradley J. Willson" Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com There is also a translation/re-interprestation of Sun-Tzu's Art of War called The Art of Ware by Bruce F. Webster. It is out of print now (the last copy I saw was in a cheap bookstore in an outlet mall), but is a truely inspired application of strategy to software development and marketing. Regards, Evelyn Mitchell efm@tummy.com > > I suggest some light reading for those interested in a tactical approach > to MS, Musashi's "Book of Five Rings". The text has been used as a training > guide for MBA's and the like...perhaps the methodology has merit in this > arena? > > Regards, > > Bradley J. Willson > www.ifixcomputers.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 04:01:59 1998 To: Roger Hardwicke cc: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] No techies, please (?) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:33:01 +1100 From: Matthew Hannigan X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com In message , Roger Hardwicke writes: >I get very tired of all of the "let's not get technical on this list" >postings. Just when things get interesting, everyone objects. Even though >I do have a strong interest in commercial uses of Linux, I have an even >stronger interest in the technical aspects. > >Does anyone one know of a more appropriate list for me to subscribe to? Or >is this "other, more technical list" mythical? ? Just about any other linux newsgroup or mailing list would/should be more technical than this one. -- -Matt Hannigan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 16:01:47 1998 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:08:39 +0100 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com At 18:32 1998-03-21 -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: >Comments are invited, even if you think I'm wrong, I want to know. Well... I agree that SCO might well be more help than competition for Linux, but what about the other way around: Is Linux beneficial for SCO, or a danger? I feel that (at least in the short run) Linux might be dangerous competition for SCO. In the hunt for new customers, I guess NT is the main opponent, but for those who already have SCO, and are familiar with Unix, it might be much better to expand with, or switch to Linux. Thus, one might argue whether SCO will be interested in any efforts that might help Linux. On the other hand, it's fairly obvious that the long term (well, five year or so) opponent to SCO is Microsoft, and maybe all the ememies of my enemy are my friends. Maybe Linux as a large OS will be a blessing for SCO, and make sure that Unix lives on, with SCO as a niche for those who want to pay more money. ;-) (Well, you know what I mean.) Maybe the alternative will be that Unix becomes more or less extinct - at least on Intel platforms, and with Merced... that might become an even larger part of the computers than today. I don't think anyone should just sit and wait for NT to commit suicide when the platforms it's runnable on gets more powerful. In other words, it could be argued that the only way for the Unix companies to handle the threat from Microsoft is to unite, but this has been the case for a decade or so, and it has mainly led to a lot of initiatives that ended up as nothing. Anyone remember OSF 1? Magnus -- Magnus Lycka, S/W Engineer, M.Sc.E.E; Folktrov. 6C, 907 51 Umea, Sweden Tel: +46(0)90 198 498, GSM: +46(0)70 582 80 65, Fax: +46(0)70 612 80 65 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 19:03:31 1998 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:19:50 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > - Advocacy supporting Linux only > - Advocacy supporting *all* Unix-on-Intel systems "Linux" is perceived to be something different than "Unix". "Unix" is hard to use and user-unfriendly. "Linux" is a great new operating system for PCs with lots of free programs. You don't see the mainstream PC trade press bashing Linux for being esoteric wizard- fodder like they do Unix. I suspect PC journalists wouldn't recognize a Unixlike system if you dropped one on their desk, so they can't make the connection that Linux is similar to Unix. Since they don't have a standard Unix slam to print, they have to poke around the system on their own. What they see looks pretty good, and that's what they report. I agree that any non-NT sale is a victory for goodness and light, even one for as awful a product as SCO. However, you can't steal enough NT sales to get anywhere by stealing them one at a time. I don't think stealing NT sales is even a delaying tactic - it's at most a PR tactic to gain name-brand reference customers. If you succeed in lumping Linux in with Unix, you will reassociate all those negative Unix stereotypes with Linux, and no businesses will ever buy it for the desktop. I see finding funding for Linux-only advocacy as a much more temporary and easy problem to fix than killing those old Unix "propellerhead" sterotypes. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 21:02:39 1998 Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) To: rw26@acf3.nyu.edu (Randy Wright) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:07:37 -0500 (EST) Cc: evan@telly.org, leif@lege.com, corin@ooloi.dyn.ml.org, linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL34 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Evan Leibovitch X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Randy Wright writes: > I would be surprised if you can form an alliance between SCO and Linux > people. Well, 86open is proof that *some* form of alliance can happen. SCO not only was a part of it, they even *hosted* its first (and so far, the only physical) meeting in August. > Inside SCO are people who have staked thier lives on the notion of > withholding 'product' until payment is promised. And as long as people see value in that payment, SCO has a business. > In linux there are people > who have staked thier lives on creating a public infrastructure for the > love of doing so. And it works -- but only so far. I have maintained that the open-source model works best on software projects that programmers want to use themselves. In fields where programmers show little interest, there are few results. Sometimes it requires a profit motive to deliver end-user-driven (as opposed to programmer-driven) solutions. Someday, the Linux crowd will develop a freeware alternative to, for instance, the journaling filesystem and online data manager found in SCO. But because this isn't something programmers would use themselves, there's no indication that the open source world will offer that anytime soon. There's only so far 'love' will take you. Freeware gave us GNU 'tar' and 'cpio', (themselves clones of commercial products), but there's good reason why both Red Hat and Caldera felt the need to licensed the commercial BRU backup software. As the Beatles sang, money can't buy you love. But it can lease it if the circumstances are right, > You point out that it is likely that > SCO's people would rather give up turf to Linux than NT. This sounds as > though SCO can play the role of king maker. Please explain further -- I don't undetstand what you mean. SCO is certainly in a position to be part of alliances along with others with which they compete. They do so in The Open Group right now. I like to use the term Ray Noorda once coined: co-opetition. > A profitable alliance could be forged between SCO and Linux could occur is > SCO became a vendor of Linux. Are you saying you wouldn't want some kind of an alliance under the status quo? Or are you pre-supposing that SCO wouldn't want it? > There is Caldera Linux, there is Redhat > Linux and there could just as well be SCO Linux. I doubt that they have > the extrodinary vision required for that. I don't think SCO has any reason to give up on the commercial model of software developmemnt in favour of freeware anytime soon. There is room for both approaches. -- Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario Supporting PC-based Unix since 1985 / Caldera & SCO authorized / www.telly.org When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem comes to look like a nail ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 21:10:22 1998 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:51:41 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Anyone remember OSF 1? I think you've just proved that a joint Linux + other Intel Unixes marketing effort is impossible. The need to differential products overwhelms the need to cooperate. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 21:10:30 1998 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:18:52 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > The proposal is to develop the common ground between SCO and Linux, not to > resolve all differences. Let's also develop common ground with Microsoft, stress the number of ways Linux and Microsoft products can be used successfully together, and promote OpenSource software. SCO is cooperating with Microsoft. Need I point that out? Making Microsoft the enemy would be a fatal mistake. Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 21:10:31 1998 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:46:43 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com You asked my opinion, and I gave it. I don't believe a Linux + other commercial Intel Unix marketing group will cooperate enough to do what you want. If you believe otherwise, feel free to prove me wrong by creating and running a successful marketing group. > The OSF never folded, it still exists within The Open Group, where > its membership now includes almost all commercial Unix vendors. What OSF did vs. what OSF promised is sufficiently different that I consider it to have completely failed in its stated mission. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 21:10:33 1998 Date: 23 Mar 1998 18:35:23 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Every morning when you wake up... X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I caught this quote on some email... I _like_ it. "... being a Linux user is sort of like living in a house inhabited by a large family of carpenters and architects. Every morning when you wake up, the house is a little different. Maybe there is a new turret, or some walls have moved. Or perhaps someone has temporarily removed the floor under your bed." - Unix for Dummies, 2nd Edition Has anyone bought Linux for Dummies? Opinions? ;) -- Stig ... http://hackvan.com HackVän ... Friend of Hacking ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 21:11:25 1998 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:32:41 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: One Approach To Advocacy X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Bradley J. Willson wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > > > Comments are invited, even if you think I'm wrong, I want to know. My advocacy is for OpenSource software. If one flavor of UNIX were to dominate MS-Windows, would that be progress? Let' see: AIX, HP-UX, Solaris? IBM, Hewlett Packard, Sun? The answer is: the world would be worse off not better. The business models for these businesses are just as predatory as Microsoft's but without the same dedication to bring value to the masses. On the other hand, if Microsoft were to go OpenSource, the world would be much better. We know that many employees at Microsoft use Linux--including the developers of MSIE for UNIX. Let's move in the direction of human progress, encourage others to do so, and build bridges. Apple shows us an outstanding example of what happens when people move off in an elitist direction. In 15 years, their market share fell from 60% to 3%. The business world is eclectic, tolerant and practical. We will get further by building bridges with Microsoft products and continually stressing the advantages of OpenSource, rather than making Microsoft the enemy. Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 21:11:58 1998 Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) To: bb@wv.com (Brian Bartholomew) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:22:11 -0500 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL34 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Evan Leibovitch X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Brian Bartholomew writes: > > Anyone remember OSF 1? > > I think you've just proved that a joint Linux + other Intel Unixes > marketing effort is impossible. How's that? The OSF never folded, it still exists within The Open Group, where its membership now includes almost all commercial Unix vendors. And OSF/1? It still exists, as Digital Unix. Significant parts of it and other OSF efforts (Motif, DCE, CDE) have made their way into mainstream commercial Unix. > The need to differential products overwhelms the need to cooperate. It can, but it doesn't have to. One can make the case that such dilemmas exists within the Linux community too. If people are more interested in co-operation than differentiation, why are there so many different window managers? Why do Red Hat, Debian and Slackware still advocate different (and largely incompatible) software-installation methods. Apparently you don't need a profit motive to sometimes have an "overwhelming" need to differentiate products. Does this mean there can be no co-operation between the distributions? You can pick and choose those areas in which you compete, and those in which you co-operate. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the choices are made wisely. The proposal is to develop the common ground between SCO and Linux, not to resolve all differences. - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 21:12:21 1998 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:53:55 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Randy Wright writes: > > In linux there are people > > who have staked thier lives on creating a public infrastructure for the > > love of doing so. > > And it works -- but only so far. I have maintained that the open-source > model works best on software projects that programmers want to use themselves. > In fields where programmers show little interest, there are few results. > Sometimes it requires a profit motive to deliver end-user-driven (as opposed to > programmer-driven) solutions. I don't believe there is any category of software that programmers would not use themselves--unless it is a category that should not be written in the first place. On the contrary, every category of software should be written by someone who *would* use it themselves. Otherwise, there is no way for it to become really great software. And only great software is what is going to finally survive. We have only to look at the majority of the Red Hat GUI sysadmin tools to see software that is going nowhere because it was not written by programmers that were going to use it themselves. > I don't think SCO has any reason to give up on the commercial model of > software developmemnt in favour of freeware anytime soon. There is room > for both approaches. There certainly is. And especially in business where decisions to adopt are mainly based on practical and financial considerations. The far left-wing of the OpenSource software community must ultimately acknowledge this. As an analogy, consider England. It still has a Queen, even though it has been a democracy for many years. And the Queen and Royal Family are still very important. Even though the World has moved on to OpenSource. :-) Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 21:12:57 1998 Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) To: bb@wv.com (Brian Bartholomew) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:53:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL34 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Evan Leibovitch X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Brian Bartholomew writes: > "Linux" is perceived to be something different than "Unix". Only by people why know Unix and Linux. To most of the world, if it uses "ls" rather than "dir", it's a Unix. > "Unix" is hard to use and user-unfriendly. And so is Linux, for most of the same reasons. In fact, it's clear that system administration tools are more advanced on most of the commercial systems than the current state of Linux. Even that HPUX monstrosity "sam" is more than Linux currently has. This state is being changed, slowly, but the commercial systems are not standing still, either. The fact remains that the commercial Unix vendors have standardized on a desktop (CDE). Like it or not, they've got their act together better than a field of Linux folk that refuses to get behind a standard interface. (The Linux interface mentioned most in the mainstream press is KDE, yet only SuSE offers it as standard and Red Hat won't offer it at all...) Or are we going to hear the mantra, "just wait for Gnome"... what if it take years to get right? > "Linux" is a great new operating > system for PCs with lots of free programs. You say that the public doesn't see Linux as a propellerhead system. I syggest that your description, in the eyes of a non-computer-literate business user, demonstrates just the opposite. "great new" -- unproven and short on business apps "PCs" -- toy hardware, not up to RISC quality as a business server "lots of free programs" -- don't you get what you pay for? Your description may appeal to home and academic users but scares the hell out of business users. > You don't see the > mainstream PC trade press bashing Linux for being esoteric wizard- > fodder like they do Unix. This is a joke, right? Run, do not walk, to your newstand and pick up a copy of the current Byte. Turn to the article on "Crash-proof computing". And tell me again, with a straight face that the mainstream press doesn't bash Linux as being "esoteric wizard-fodder". Like it or not, those who unaware of Linux and Unix (and/or fear them) lump them together. And as Linux becomes more of a threat to NT, expect to see the level of Linux-bashing intensify. > If you succeed in lumping Linux in with Unix, you will reassociate all > those negative Unix stereotypes with Linux, and no businesses will > ever buy it for the desktop. If you believe that the public doesn't *already* see Linux as being just "a new free Unix", you're fooling yourself. And if you think Linux doesn't have the same hurdles as Unix to jump, technical and otherwise, to get significant penetration on company desktops, think again. Linux has broken the price barrier, but there are many other barriers still to be crossed. > I see finding funding for Linux-only > advocacy as a much more temporary and easy problem to fix than killing > those old Unix "propellerhead" sterotypes. Nobody said it would be easy. ;-) - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 23:07:31 1998 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:28:55 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > a field of Linux folk that refuses to get behind a standard > interface. Window decorations are functionally irrelevant. The X user interface has been standardized for years - click all three buttons on the root window and title bars until you get a useful menu. The only meaningful difference I find between any of the window managers is that some are slower and less reliable than others. I like a virtual desktop, RaiseLower on CapsLock, FocusFollowsMouse, and no AutoRaise. I can get this anywhere. Gnome promises to waste screenspace with File/Edit/Window menubars on each window. I can do without that. > Run, do not walk, to your newstand and pick up a copy of the current > Byte. Turn to the article on "Crash-proof computing". And tell me > again, with a straight face that the mainstream press doesn't bash > Linux as being "esoteric wizard-fodder". Byte couldn't report a fact if their advertisers paid them to. It's hilarious how they consistantly reported NT as reliable and a recommended server choice, back when it was *really* bad. There is lots of press besides Byte, and quite a lot of it is taking positive notice of Linux in a way they never would for SCO, Unixware, and those other hard-to-use Unix things. I see "discussion of desktop OS" articles that compare Win95/NT/Linux, and no propellerhead comments. I assume we see the same newstand selection, yet we've come to opposite conclusions. Hmm. Wonder if our positions are disprovable. Another member of the League for Programming Freedom (LPF) www.lpf.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 23:09:44 1998 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:30:42 -0500 X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 From: jcc2@juno.com (John C Cusick) Subject: [linux-biz] Wall Street Journal Article X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I don't recall seeing any mention on this list of an article that appeared on the front page of Section B (Marketplace) of the Wall Street Journal last Thursday, Mar. 19 titled "Apache's Free Software Gives Microsoft, Netscape Fits". Among other interesting observations, it mentions the following companies that use the Apache Web Server, to include two Microsoft Companies, HotMail Corp. and WebTV Networks, Inc. Kimberly-Clarke, McDonalds, Texas Instruments, Deja News. NY Yankees, Atlanta Braves, Seattle Mariners, Digital Equipment and others. Good Stuff to place on the desk of the Corporate Adimin/Buyers. JC _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 23:11:03 1998 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:09:00 -0800 From: Don Marti To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Every morning when you wake up... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 06:35:23PM -0000, Stig HackVän wrote: > Has anyone bought Linux for Dummies? Opinions? ;) I'm giving it the new user test right now and the subject likes it so far, especially the explanations of networking. It also has a good "installing Red Hat" section. Even if you don't read the book, the fact that there's a "Dummies" book on a subject is an excellent argument against both the (1) "that's too hard" and (2) "that's too unpopular" anti-Linux arguments. Thanks for the house construction analogy, Stig. Here's an analogy from LFD's Chapter 5: "Imagine for a moment that you are king or queen of the elves. Your subjects are magical little creatures attending to your every whim, and performing myriad services you frequently need. The elves under your control are highly trained but narrowly specialized little creatures. You command them to do their specialized tasks by simply calling their name and indicating which tricks you want." -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 23:11:57 1998 Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) To: dwj@aaronsrod.com Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:08:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL34 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Evan Leibovitch X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Dwight Johnson writes: > Let's also develop common ground with Microsoft, stress the number > of ways Linux and Microsoft products can be used successfully together, > and promote OpenSource software. It is enough to demonstrate that we can co-operate with MS by providing significant interoperability tools (samba, wine, dhcp). The computing world is littered with companies that cozied-up to Microsoft, only to get spat out when MS deemed it useful. Just as O'Reilly & Associates what it's like to work with MS. > SCO is cooperating with Microsoft. Need I point that out? Good example. Let's examine three fronts: 1) SCO has licensed MS code so it can provide an NT-server environment on SCO platforms (AFPS). Similar to samba, but easier to admin for someone already familiar woth NT. 2) SCO took MS to court in the US and the European Union, to get out of a contract that forced SCO to license MS code in its Unix. The EC ruled in favour of SCO. http://www.sco.com/press/release/6698.html 3) In the rollout of UnixWare 7, most of SCO's comparative marketing was positioning it against NT, while bundling a number of Windows interoperability apps (TermVision, VisionFS) into UnixWare. In other words, make your system easy to intergate with theirs at a technical and practical level, but don't give them an inch in the marketplace where they're trying to destroy you. > Making Microsoft the enemy would be a fatal mistake. Gates has declared Unix obsolete. The first thing Fox Software did after MS bought them was to drop Unix support, even though its Unix software was profitable. It's no coincidence that MS refuses to port Internet Explorer to any Intel-Unix platform, even though it is porting it to RISC Unix platforms. They've already made *us* the enemy, whether we like it or not; this is defense. - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 23 23:11:59 1998 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:55:55 -0800 From: sean dreilinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.33 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com CC: Evan Leibovitch , Brian Bartholomew Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Brian Bartholomew writes: > > "Unix" is hard to use and user-unfriendly. > And so is Linux, for most of the same reasons. In fact, it's > clear that system administration tools are more advanced on > most of the commercial systems than the current state of Linux. consider linuxconf: http://solucor.solucorp.qc.ca/linuxconf/ common-interface administration via tty, web, command line and X. gui sendmail and firewall config, along front ends most common and uncommon admin functions. > Your description may appeal to home and academic users but scares the > hell out of business users. did that business-computing newspaper InfoWorld name redhat linux as product of the year in Operating Systems, best supported product of the year (through online support via the usenet and IRC, no less) and linux also earned user's choice awards--both readers and browsers--alongside ms office 97, which SHOULD scare the hell out of business users :-). http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayTC.pl?/97poy.win3.htm#linux http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?/features/980323rbchoice.htm i don't have my Byte magazine at-hand, but i recall a sidebar to "crash-proof computing" RECOMMENDING linux as a frugal alternative to high-cost enterprise OS's. small businesses with little or no IT budget are trying to keep up with technology, and linux allows them to put their limited budget towards human support instead of license fees. HTH -- sean sean dreilinger, mlis http://www.interactivate.com/people/sean/ sean@interactivate.com +1 (619) 748-7684 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 24 08:41:36 1998 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 08:02:10 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Sergey Nikitin cc: Linux Business Discussion Group Subject: Re: [linux-biz] JDK1.1.5v1.3 X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com In relation to this, I'd like to point out that the Java-Linux Porting Project home has moved to http://java-linux.org and the mailing-list moved to just a few minutes after the below post was sent out: Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:04:56 -0700 From: Richard Cannings To: gregh@sunsite.unc.edu, jdk-comments@web1.javasoft.com, rick@javalobby.com, michael.oconnell@javaworld.com, editor@developer.com, info@sys-con.com, malda@slashdot.org, java-linux@java.blackdown.org, scoop@unreal.org Subject: Announcing the new Java-Linux Porting Project home X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/8106 The Java-Linux Porting Project home has moved to http://java-linux.org . It is fully updated for experts and beginners alike with information on: + all JDK ports to Linux on i386, alpha, powerpc and sparc architectures, + Java JIT's, IDE's, and other Java development tools for Linux, + Java-Linux related mailing lists, + Online and offline Java books and tutorials, + Javasoft product's on running Linux like JavaServer, Java Workshop, and HotJava, By re-establishing Java-Linux as the definitive resource for running Java and Java related products on Linux, we intend to help propel Linux into becoming a viable operating system for all computer users. We have also updated our FTP servers with: + all known JDK ports to Linux, + jdk diffs, + patches to run Javasoft products on Linux, + documentation, + JIT's, IDE's, decompilers, and other development tools, + JDBC drivers, + various Java packages, + and more. I'd like to thank Karl Asha at Blackdown for maintaining the Java-Linux page at blackdown.org and countless Java-Linux users for helping Dan and I update the web pages and FTP tree. The current JDK ports to Linux are as follows: i386 jdk1.1.5-v5, by Steve Byrne (for glibc and libc) jdk1.1.5-v1.2, by Sergey Nikitin (for glibc only) alpha jdk1.1.5-v6, by Uncle George ppc jdk1.1.4-v1, by Kevin Buettner, Scott Hutinger, Brian Keller, and Kevin Hendricks. sparc jdk1.1.2 (with 1.1.5 to be release in days), by Johan Vos If you have any questions or comments you can email rich@java-linux.org about the web pages and dan@java-linux.org about the ftp services. -- rich@java-linux.org -- More information on Java-Linux can be found at: http://www.blackdown.org/java-linux.html This list is archived daily at: http://www.blackdown.org/java-linux/archive/ To unsubscribe from this list: send email to java-linux-request@java.blackdown.org with the word 'unsubscribe' in the subject line. For additional assistance, please contact karl@blackdown.org. __________________________________________________________________ Again, the blackdown.org domain name is not correct anymore -- it's now java-linux.org !! __________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 24 11:23:33 1998 From: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:32:08 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: jcc2@juno.com (John C Cusick), linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Wall Street Journal Article X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Mar 24, 0:20, John C Cusick wrote: > I don't recall seeing any mention on this list of an > article that appeared on the front page of Section > B (Marketplace) of the Wall Street Journal last > Thursday, Mar. 19 titled "Apache's Free Software Gives > Microsoft, Netscape Fits". Actually, Apache is making a real killing on the Web server side of things. Check out the monthly Netcraft Web Server Survey, and you'll see what I mean: http://www.netcraft.com/survey/ For March 1998 (reproduced without permission): Top Developers Developer Feb 98 Percent Mar 98 Percent Change Apache 878215 45.72 975289 46.79 1.07 Microsoft 418859 21.80 450974 21.63 -0.17 Netscape 191642 9.98 203394 9.76 -0.22 NCSA 68332 3.56 69128 3.32 -0.24 Top Servers Server Feb 98 Percent Mar 98 Percent Change Apache 878215 45.72 975289 46.79 1.07 Microsoft-IIS 407060 21.19 439748 21.10 -0.09 Netscape-Enterprise 101758 5.30 110336 5.29 -0.01 NCSA 68332 3.56 69128 3.32 -0.24 RapidSite 44280 2.31 48914 2.35 0.04 Netscape is the sum of sites running Netscape-Enterprise, Netscape-FastTrack, Netscape-Commerce, Netscape-Communications, Netsite-Commerce & Netsite-Communications. Microsoft is the sum of sites running Microsoft-Internet- Information-Server, Microsoft-IIS, Microsoft-IIS-W, Microsoft-PWS-95, & Microsoft-PWS. It has a graph showing the growth of Apache over all the other servers etc. Cheers, -- Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond, Ph.D. |----> Global Information Highway Limited Phone: +44 (0)956 84 1113 | Always 60 seconds | E-mail: Fax : +44 (0)171 937 7666 | ahead of the past | Web: http://www.gih.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 24 17:01:07 1998 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:27:14 +0100 (CET) From: Kristoffer Andsten To: Geoff Marshall cc: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Subject: RE: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Geoff Marshall wrote: > So I bought NT and it was up and running in HALF A DAY. And I'm sure it'll run nicely in chunks of half a month each, when put to some real usage... > LINUX is in no way free. > The time I wasted on it meant that it cost far and away more than NT.... Speaking only for myself, having installed a few linux machines, the last one took about an hour, from scratch (i.e a disk with novell junk on it ;) It takes a bit of knowledge when it comes to hardware, especially if you have some exotic stuff (and even if you dont, it doesnt hurt knowing that IRQ means and does). Sure, it might be harder the first time, but still, getting the machine booted and accessing the LAN shouldnt be such a great task. (Debian user myself, but redhat shouldnt be that much worse, I believe) Also, I can recommend http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP/ which has helpded me in my learning process numerous times. Also, as mentioned above, it doesnt hurt knowing your hardware a bit. > AND IT STILL DOESN'T WORK !! See the above mentioned URL, or buy Linux for Dummies? > LINUX IS STILL STRICLY FOR UNIX EXPERTS, and until some commercialy >motivated people tackle the true impediments to its widespread.... I beg to differ. It's invading homes all over the world, for instance, as we speak.. and unless you consider the average 14-year-old to be more of a unix expert than yourself..... > Geoff Marshall Kristoffer Andsten ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 24 17:01:28 1998 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:39:01 -0700 (MST) From: Darren Boyd To: Geoff Marshall , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: RE: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Geoff Marshall wrote: > After 5 DAYS, 4 different LAN cards and the help of 2 'experts' this supposedly wonderfull and miraculous OS still could not recognise any of the LAN cards. > > So I bought NT and it was up and running in HALF A DAY. It sounds like you are having trouble with hardware. It is unfortunate that the hardware industry doesn't take a bit more consideration in the Linux community. Also, the fact that Linux doesn't recognize a piece of hardware and NT did is a very weak argument. Especially considering the number of pieces of hardware on the market that are not supported by NT. You just happened to get a combination that worked with NT and not Linux. That scenario could have been easily reversed. > LINUX is in no way free. > The time I wasted on it meant that it cost far and away more than NT.... Nothing is free, especially when you are considering time. Take a university education for example. It would take a lot less time to get a job at Mcdonald's then it would be to get an education. Thus, it would be a lot less expensive to work at Mcdonald's. However, this argument doesn't hold water after four years, and a B.Sc. (or B.Comm., B.E., ...). Linux has a steep initial learning curve, the rewards for climbing that curve are far greater then the effort it costs. I'm wondering, if after you got your NT box set up, if you also got a news server running. and a web server, and a DNS server, I assume that the Windows networking is working (SMB). How about an ftp server. I setup a box on saturday and got the whole system plus all the above mentioned goodies in about four hours. Most of the time waiting for kernel compiles (slow little 486). As you can see I have a positive story about Linux, as I have found most stories about Linux to be. I am sorry your luck was not the same. However, I do not claim that Linux is perfect, just because of one good experience. Likewise, you should not make the claim that it is so inperfect, just because of one bad experience. Remember the words of Henry Ford: Failure is only the opportunity to more intelligently begin again. Good luck in your future endeavours... BTW: Even though your words were strong, I must say thanks. Seeing that a user is discontent (maybe even angry?) with Linux is, by far, one of the greatest motivators. Thanks, Darren Darren Boyd | dboyd@its.to Home Page and Public Key | http://www.its.to/~dboyd ----------------------------|-------------------------------- The moment of victory is much too short to live for that and nothing else. -Martina Navrtilova ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 24 17:02:30 1998 From: Geoff Marshall To: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Subject: RE: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:46:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dwight Johnson wrote We have only to look at the majority of the Red Hat GUI sysadmin tools to see software that is going nowhere because it was not written by programmers that were going to use it themselves. I couldn't agree more ! Large chunks of Linux, important for its future success, are appallingly unfriendly. As a competent Windows programmer, no Unix experience, I bought Red Hat 5.0 and tried to get it running as an in-house Intranet server on the simplest PC imagineable, 16Mb 486, 1GB IDE drive, CD-ROM and LAN card. After 5 DAYS, 4 different LAN cards and the help of 2 'experts' this supposedly wonderfull and miraculous OS still could not recognise any of the LAN cards. So I bought NT and it was up and running in HALF A DAY. LINUX is in no way free. The time I wasted on it meant that it cost far and away more than NT.... AND IT STILL DOESN'T WORK !! LINUX IS STILL STRICLY FOR UNIX EXPERTS, and until some commercialy motivated people tackle the true impediments to its widespread use (and don't talk to me about Red Hat) it will remain so. My advice to anyone who uses Windows and is tempted by Linux - DON'T BOTHER My advice to the Linux committed - Your talk of advocacy groups is HOT AIR. Try - raise some money - invest in making Linux MORE user-friendly than Windows - the masses will flock to your doors - become millionaires. Geoff Marshall ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 24 17:03:23 1998 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:55:09 -0300 From: Fabio Ferrari X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] One Approach To Advocacy (was Re: Call to Arms) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Geoff Marshall wrote: > As a competent Windows programmer, no Unix experience, I bought Red > Hat 5.0 and tried to get it running as an in-house Intranet server on > the simplest PC imagineable, 16Mb 486, 1GB IDE drive, CD-ROM and LAN > card. > After 5 DAYS, 4 different LAN cards and the help of 2 'experts' this > supposedly wond