From popmail Thu Feb 26 10:01:22 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Business Discussion Group To: cobrien@access.digex.net (Cary B. O'Brien) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:29:37 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > > Say I have one financial app, > > and it is transfering money to another finacial app. Since its really > > money, I really need to to really be reliably, securely, authenticatedly, > > non-repudaiatedly delivered. > This is exactly what Tuxedo does. It supports multi-machine > (nested?) transactions with (if you code everything right) roll-back. > Plus reliable queuing. Hmm, I thought I read that tuxedo used MQSeries for the queueing. > As near as I can tell it runs on a stock Unix system and uses > SysV IPC and normal networking to do all this. No kernel stuff > beyond this seems to be required. Yeah, don't think any kernel stuff is required, other than some guarentee that stuff has been flushed to disk in case of pwoer outage. > begin > credit account a > debit account b > commit or rollback > > You'd need a big central machine, though. Well that's the point: The typical use is to transfer money to account a at bank a on sql server a in city a, from account b bank b in city b ... centralization is fundamentally impossible, that's why the queueing is needed. (The other point was that eliable queueing from a to b is boring until we first have a reliable a and b, which we now seem to have). This is needed also for airline seats, stocks, commodities, etc. and to a lesser degree, for any movement of goods from one store to another. Although absolute reliability may be less crucial for cans of soup, it still would be nice if the price was right... --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 10:02:12 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation To: intersoft@onyx.kachinatech.com (Geoff Marshall) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 02:14:51 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Geoff Marshall said: > > The small enterprises have even less reason to experiment with free software. > I'm a biz oriented person with some windows programming knowledge, planning to start an Internet business. I've spent the last 2 or 3 weeks looking at 'free' software and reading the arguments on various mailing lists. Having also been through the horrendous process of trying to set up free BSD and Linux (on a basic, very ordinary PC) I've reached the conclusion that the cost of running and supporting this stuff far outweighs the apparent saving provided by 'free' software. Well, you *should* figure out your costs, first. As a internet business you'll need firwalls, dns, mail servers, web servers, encryption (e.g. skip), maybe a database, version control tools, never mind compilers and all the dat-to-day stuff. By the time you deck out one single NT machine with that software, you' have dropped a few grand into microsoft, and then another 28 grand into the hands of the various vendors of the add-on s/w that microsoft doesn't sell. If you have 2-3 servers, plus another 5-10 development machines, you'll be staring at a bill on the order of $100-$200K for an NT solution, vs. $40K-$80K for a linux solution. The savings is substantial. ------- And I can't help sniping ... Have you ever used NT? I've had to start using it again recently, and, gosh, its such a mickey-mouse system. All those gui tools that get 90% of the job done, and make the remaining 10% take up the remaining 90% of your time. After a several years of abstinence, I am rather shocked by how primitive it is. I really thought that with all the fuss about NT, that I'd come back to it and see this strong, enterprise contender that's pushing unix out of the market. Frankly, I am appalled. What happened? This is what all the fuss is about? Lets get a reality check here, folks. Linux has blown NT out of the water. Shows over. ---linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 13:01:32 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:19:29 +0200 (SAT) From: Evan Summers To: Ben Woodard cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Java MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > current form is capable enough to replace the X and X based > applications. The Java Evangilists that I have run into all seem to > believe that everybody should write everything in java and believe me You are comparing Java to X. Compare apples to apples, eg. Java to C/C++. Java is a language. I did allude to the fact that JDK 1.2 includes GUI components, ie. it's own widget set written in Java. Similarly one gets widget sets developed in other languages. Now X is a (network-tranparent) windowing system. I was suggesting that we should develop a native Linux windowing system on GGI, which in the first instance one could use as a GUI console for Java applications, in which case you wouldn't need even code a widget set, since JDK has that. This is would be a "replacement" to X/Motif, certainly for Java applications, eg. full-screen HotJava or upcoming NetscapeJava in the first instance. What I'm saying is that would be a short-cut to getting an optimised platform (native GGI et al rather than the overhead of X and Motif) and GUI for business applications, where Java is the language of choice. And what's involved? Actually very little -- it's just a matter of implementing _basic_ windowing system on GGI, integrating TTF font support courtesy of Freetype, plus Sun's JDK. I can't see how that would take more than six months, with a few hackers rolling their sleeves up. You wouldn't need to worry about networking issues in the windowing system, because Java is (and Linux clients should be) all about client/server rather than host-based. It would also make Linux (rather than JavaOS, Microsoft CE, etcetera), the OS of choice for thin clients, ie. the desktops in the enterprise, and also the perfect platform with fatter clients/desktops in the enterprise, being lean and mean, without X and Motif, and optimised for Java, which if you hadn't noticed is the only alternative to Microsoft as far as corporates are concerned. Besides all the ready made applications in Java (HotJava, Netscape, eSuite, and the thousands more as more and more developers shift to Java in their thousands), open-source developers have the pleasure of developing in Java for their Linux systems, eg. a desktop and accessory suite like KDE, where that software can be used on all platforms. That will make the lines between Win95 and Linux clients blurr, in which case enterprises will flock to Linux's Java desktop to enjoy increased stability, and no licenses. This is the fastest way (and only way really) I can see Linux achieving World Domination of the Desktop, leaving Microsoft in it's wake. > The second problem is that Java remains under the control of Sun and > it is very buggy. I don't know how many times I had to work around > bugs in awt. So I think it will be a while before we are able to run > Java effectivly on our desktop. I repeat that Java as such is a language. Are you saying that Sun's Java compiler is buggy, or Sun's JVM, or the AWT, or all of them? What about gauvac compiler or kaffe JVM? And Netscape isn't buggy? Win95, solid as a rock? The point is that Java tools (eg. Sun's JDK) are maturing/stabilising very quickly now. Bugs can be fixed -- that's what they're there for! If Sun's JDK has bugs, that's because it is quite young, not because Java as a language is flawed, or the design of JFC is flawed. Kind regards Evan ___________________________Evan Summers PhD * telephone +27 11 339-6111 _________________Symphony Research * Linux & Networks * http://sr.co.za _______________________Johannesburg, South Africa * A UCS Group Company ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 13:05:59 1998 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:21:04 +0100 To: Geoff Marshall , "'linux-biz@lege.com'" From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com At 12:02 1998-02-25 -0500, Geoff Marshall wrote: >Regretably I'll probably end up making Mr Gates a bit richer and buy NT, >but that's much cheaper than climbing the Linux learning curve. If you thought that learning ANY operating system well enough to make it fundamental for your business would be cheaper than a single NT licence, I guess you've learned something. If you choose NT I think you'll eventually learn that even costly operating systems take time to learn properly... I wouldn't say that the learning curve is steeper for Linux, I'd say that the steep part comes in the beginning, and for NT it start out flatter and then gets steeper as you try more tricky things. For the non-techie user who don't have a unix expert at his hands, and who will get along with fundamental functionality, NT might actually be a better choise, but I think it will turn out much more expensive than Linux if the requirements go beyond what is provided with the simple point and click interfaces. I tend to describe Novell Netware as a shoe-box (good for storing things in but that's about it), Windows NT as a Swiss Army Knife, and Unix as a proper tool box. Sure, the shiny knife with all those fold out tools, that fits right in your pocket is more impressive than the oily old-fashioned tool box, and if you're just going to pick your nails, the tool box is overkill. On the other hand, if you want to repair your car, or repair your house, you won't be very efficient with your swiss army knife. It might take some time to learn the ways in such a huge tool box as unix, but you'll be able to make plenty with a small fraction of the tools, and it's really nice to have the major power tools available when you need them. Previosly, people have mentioned the advantage of being able to telnet into a computer and do remote administration, and the horror of mucking with the registries. There are also some other important factors with linux/unix: * A simple linux CD contains all you might ever dream of needing for your system administration tasks etc, and much more. It would take you weeks just to gather and install the corresponding tools for another OS. In linux they are all there. You don't have to run around to get hold of Perl, Python, Apache or whatever you might need. * Maturity / stability. Those who learned to edit filed in vi ten years ago know exactly how to do search-and-replace, write macros, etc in a unix editor today. Those who learn vi today will happily use vi in ten or twenty years from now. The same is true for many things in unix. Also, if you know how to sort a text file in unix (type 'sort filename', how hard can that be) you also know how to do it in vi, since you just invoke the OS command from within the editor. With Microsoft you'll have to relearn for each tool, and then again every second year or so. It's as if cars would change locations of pedals etc from year to year... Why relearn how to operate reinvented tools, when you can spend your time doing something productive? * While all the Windows models (whether they are called servers or not) are geared towards 'pleasing' one interactive user, unix has always been good at handling many users and non-interactive use. If you manage to get over the initial, steep learning curve of linux, you will easily write little scripts to do things like reporting through email each night whether some- one exceeds their disk quota, or process some other kinds of logs into the format you want and put them on the web server so you can inspect them in your web browser, or automatically make backups via ftp to some remote part of the world in case you run out of tapes. I've worked with Windows for many years, and I still haven't figured out how to do the things that I learned in a few weeks (or possibly months) with unix. - How do I get an arbitrary Windows program to report it's result through email? How do I automate more advanced tasks than backups (almost all programs require interactive response)? Take a simple example: I want to get a listing of all files larger than 100 MB that weren't there the day before to be presented to me each morning so I can see if someone is swamping the disk. (This is just a tiny example of course, I could also inspect total size of all files belonging to a certain user.) In unix this is a one line script with find invoked with proper flags, and the output piped to mail, and I'll get a report in my postbox each morning if I just execute the script nightly from crontab. I can't imagine how to make this in NT without writing or buying a specific program for this purpose. Even if the prorgam would be for free I could write the script much faster than I could install the Windows program, and the script I wrote is probably more flexible and adaptable for other types of use. If you don't want to learn technical things, you just want it to work, I think you will need assistance from someone else regardless of what OS you use. As I said, you might get along by yourself with Windows for simple uses, but if your needs are more advanced I think unix will be much cheeper in the long run. Remote administration, maturity and stability are all factors in favour of unix/linux. Magnus -- Magnus Lycka, S/W Engineer, M.Sc.E.E; Folktrov. 6C, 907 51 Umea, Sweden Tel: +46(0)90 198 498, GSM: +46(0)70 582 80 65, Fax: +46(0)70 612 80 65 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 18:11:08 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:03:39 +0100 From: Cyril Chaboisseau X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Dillon CC: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Will Linux fade away too? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Michael Dillon wrote: > Imagine a press release from Redhat that says something like this: > > Since our RedHat Linux has already been ported to the 64-bit Alpha > architecture, we anticipate few problems in preparing a Merced port > as soon as Intel makes the chips available. With the growing > popularity of Linux in the enterprise RedHat Linux will be well > in this market by the time Merced-based machines become available > ad we anticipate that this will lead to Linux capturing 30% or more of > this market. in the following years, we might see those kind of press release ;-) : ------>%--------->%--------->%--------->%--------->%--------->%--- For immediate release - --------------------- Redmond, Wash., Jan. 7th, 2007 -- Linux under scrutiny from the US DoJ The United States Department of Justice (US DoJ) has recently announced its intention to carry out an inquiry regarding the monopoly of Linux (NASDAQ: LNUX) and Linux-like systems on the market of computer operating systems. According to several analysts who expressed their wish to remain anonymous, Linux has become a de-facto standard by allegedly using illegal commerce practices: - free availability of the Linux system and of its derivatives (AIX, Solaris, DG-UX, BSD/OS, ...) - under-the-table price agreements ("free") - use of unpaid volunteers Usage of the Internet to promote this dominance is highly suspected, and could be considered as added prosecution material. This inquiry was initiated following a class-action lawsuit from several small software editors (Microsoft, Oracle, Netscape, IBM) -- these companies believe their business activities are compromised by these illegal practices. Most of the above-mentioned plaintiffs have regrouped under the banner "Windows NT10.0" to offer "...solutions of superior quality, reliability and performance." On a side note, Windows NT (WNT) now ships with its complete sources in human-readable form, which is not the case with recent versions of Linux. Invented by Microsoft, this is now a proven way to develop quality software. Endorsement of this concept by Microsoft is stronger than ever, as shown by their now ubiquitous sticker "100% Pure Sources Inside" (TM). - -- [Written by Pierre Beyssac , translated by Pierre and Philippe Regnauld .] ------>%--------->%--------->%--------->%--------->%--------->%--- 'just for fun !!! -- Cyril Chaboisseau mailto:Cyril.Chaboisseau@Obs.CoE.int ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 21:01:28 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:11:12 -0800 From: "Donald B. Marti Jr." To: linas@linas.org Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 02:14:51AM -0600, linas@linas.org wrote: > And I can't help sniping ... Have you ever used NT? I've had to start > using it again recently, and, gosh, its such a mickey-mouse system. Mickey Mouse (R) is a registered trademark of Walt Disney Corporation. I am not a lawyer, but usage of this protected intellectual property in connection with Windows NT may be grounds for a lawsuit. There's one other business model not listed in Eric's list of ways to make money with Open Source software: publishing. Give the software away and sell the books. It seems to work for Larry Wall and O'Reilly. You could also do a magazine that comes with a CD of up-to-date GPL software and contains articles about how to use it. With a good install program, it would be a painless way for regular users to keep their system up-to-date. The magazine content would be GPL on the web after publication, but you could also sell it as books and "best of" CDs. A decent-sized subscriber base and good ad sales would make it cheaper for people to subscribe than to make "bootleg" copies. This might be a way to get creative spreadsheet macro programmers, writers, and graphic designers off proprietary software and into the free software movement. (Somehow I seem to be saying "Open Source" when I'm talking about a business model, and "free software" when I'm talking about winning people's hearts and minds.) -- Don Marti | Electric Lichen L.L.C. | dmarti@electriclichen.com | San Francisco, California | 415-362-1412 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 21:04:41 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:42:23 -0800 From: Bradley Willson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux Users List , Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Hello, Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages using a web browser as the front end? I can see such a thing in an enterprise where networking would benefit from exploitation. I don't recall seeing this approach explored on these lists, or anywhere else for that matter. It's just an idea... -- Best Regards, Bradley J. Willson http://www.ifixcomputers.com Willson Consulting Services mailto://cpu@ifixcomputers.com Seattle, WA 98146-1724 Tel: 206-439-1164 Microsoft(tm)...1 Billionaire Served. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 23:01:06 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:26:33 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Hello, > > Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages > using a web browser as the front end? I can see such a thing in an > enterprise where networking would benefit from exploitation. > I sure hope so, because that's what we are doing in several places. The thin client greatly simplifies managing client software -- you just need to install netscape! At this moment we are running a demo of a service at several sites on both coasts. All we needed was to tell the salesmen to go to the customer sites and point their browsers at http://nn.nn.nn.nn and away they go. We're re-working internal system admin tasks the same way. Just make sure you think through security and authentication. Extra Credit: Anyone know of an X plugin for netscape? It would turn netscape into an x-server. Or a java implementation of X? (which would amount to roughly the same thing). -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 23:01:09 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:29:25 -0600 (CST) From: "Eric L. Green " To: Bradley Willson cc: Linux Business List Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Bradley Willson wrote: > Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages > using a web browser as the front end? I can see such a thing in an > enterprise where networking would benefit from exploitation. Yes indeed. I have investigated doing a web front-end for our educational administration system for one simple reason: installing client software on networked user workstations is a major manpower drain on our resources. Every computer nowdays comes with a pre-configured web browser. Why should I have to send a technician out there to install and configure client software on Win95 machines when I can just have the customer point his browser at our server? Of course, my general goal is to reduce my workload as much as possible :-). Babysitting technicians in the field as they install client software is NOT what I want to spend time doing. Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants Systems Specialist Educational Administration Solutions "We believe Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 23:01:19 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:25:01 -0600 (CST) From: "Eric L. Green " To: "Donald B. Marti Jr." cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Donald B. Marti Jr. wrote: > make money with Open Source software: publishing. Give the software > away and sell the books. It seems to work for Larry Wall and > O'Reilly. Actually, a better (or worse) model would be TeX or LaTeX. Leslie Lamport's book on LaTeX was for years the only reference text on LaTeX and a quite pricey one at that. There is no on-line documentation bundled with LaTeX as far as I can tell, unlike the extensive (like, 4-inch stack of laser-printed pages) on-line documentation that comes with Perl5. You can program Perl using only the on-line documentation. If you're dedicated you can even learn Perl from the on-line documentation, although it's painful since there's no index or table of contents. I wrote my first Perl program before I got the Camel book that way. Of course, that was back when the blue Camel book was the current one too, and today's Perl is a bit, err, bigger :-{. (Hey, the stack of printed on-line documentation was only one inch back then!). Personally, I consider software such as TeX for which adequate on-line documentation does not exist to be 'crippleware', no different from all the crippled 'shareware' programs that afflict the Windows world. If it weren't for the status of Donald Knuth in the academic world I doubt that anybody would have bothered looking at TeX, 'free' or not. In short: I don't think you can call it "open source software" unless you have at least the Perl level of available on-line documentation. Without that, nobody has any inclination to use the beast since they have to go buy a book to get even a hint of how to use it. With Perl, the rather dense on-line documentation is a good advertisement for the available books, yet is accessible enough to let you know that "hey, I want to learn more of this". BTW, I think that's the biggest downfall of Red Hat Software as a software development house -- they do *NOT* document the programs they write. In the case of things like the 'newt' library we are talking about a set of character-based windowing routines that many would find useful -- if there were any documentation at all on it. Similarly, their network configurator etc. do NOT have a "Help" menu or button on them... Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants Systems Specialist Educational Administration Solutions "We believe Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 23:03:14 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:17:06 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Bradley Willson cc: Linux Users List , Linux Business List Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Bradley Willson wrote: > Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages > using a web browser as the front end? I can see such a thing in an > enterprise where networking would benefit from exploitation. > > I don't recall seeing this approach explored on these lists, or > anywhere else for that matter. It's just an idea... It is something we have explored on the FreeMoney mailing list. Several members of the list are giving it priority. FreeMoney is a general purpose business accounting system being developed under the GPL. http://www.aaronsrod.com/freemoney/ will tell you more about FreeMoney. Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 26 23:03:18 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:57:08 -0800 From: Bradley Willson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Netscape from another angle X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com While the best article is not online, there are several perspectives on Netscape's moves. http://techweb.cmp.com/vb/MAIN/ The article I alluded to speaks of LInux in a positive way, and even explains the "free" in freeware as not monetary but freely distributable. -- Best Regards, Bradley J. Willson http://www.ifixcomputers.com Willson Consulting Services mailto://cpu@ifixcomputers.com Seattle, WA 98146-1724 Tel: 206-439-1164 Microsoft(tm)...1 Billionaire Served. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 02:40:34 1998 From: Bobnhlinux Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:26:17 EST To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Eric Raymond's latest Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com In a message dated 98-02-25 09:54:08 EST, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > > > --snip-- > > -- The IT bosses of six counties, two water districts, and one utility > > district need a new land-use, appraisal, building-permit, lien and > > right-of-way database infrastructure. They build one in-house because > > when Oracle bid on it, the price was too high. > > Possible, but unlikely. Many customers of packages like this tend to rely > on the software suppliers for updates (many such end-users have only > runtime versions of the DB engines). As a result, there isn't much skilled > programming talent available in-house. Even larger shops with their own IS > staff tend to center their programming efforts on custom reports rather > than the basic logic of the program. > --more snip-- There is at least one consortium doing this (but not GPLed). They consist of medical schools, state mental hospitals, etc. The consortium hires programmers, provides documentation, etc. As I understand it, they don't release it to the general public, because then they wouldn't get the membership fees. I am trying to find out if they use Linux (they do use Unix). Bob Sparks Linux is better because it's better, not because it's "free". ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 02:47:13 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:13:37 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Control an NT box from Xwindows (fwd) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:43:22 -0500 From: James Ervin Reply-To: inet-access@earth.com To: inet-access@earth.com Subject: Control an NT box from Xwindows Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:44:46 -0700 (MST) Resent-From: inet-access@earth.com Just wanted to mention an app that saved me a few headaches: VCN byOlivetti-Oracle Laboratory (http://www.orl.co.uk/); You can take over the desktop of an NT/95/Xwindows system from any NT/95/Xwindows system. It is small, portable and can be run as a java app through a web browser. Now I can sit at my linux box and check/restart/re-boot the NT boxes in the system. Sort of like PCAnywhere, but can be run through the web and through Xwindows. It is also under the GPL, so it is free. James Ervin City of Bedford Network Administration admin@ci.bedford.va.us (540)586-7156 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 06:00:59 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: cobrien@access.digex.net (Cary B. O'Brien) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:07:44 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Hi, It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > > > Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages > > using a web browser as the front end? Yes. > I sure hope so, because that's what we are doing in several places. > The thin client greatly simplifies managing client software -- you > just need to install netscape! I built one of these, see http://teleportal.com, http://siliconhillstravel.com, http://intransco.com http://ontheflytravel.com for working examples. Its for a travel res system. One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from very begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back end. You won't understand what I'm saying until you actually get to version 2 of your stuff, so take it on faith: the browser-as-client can be way-too-thin at times. I'm tired of writing email, but if you pressure me, I can explain the claims above, and provide tips about design decisions that turn out to be important later. --linas > Extra Credit: > > Anyone know of an X plugin for netscape? It would turn netscape into > an x-server. Its called "broadway", and the x consortium (now the open group??) is working on it. Should be in beta, at least, don't know if it runs on linux yet. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 06:11:53 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:08:08 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: linas@linas.org cc: "Cary B. O'Brien" , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in > corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a > cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from very > begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back end. OK,, Linas, you've sold me on the idea, though I need to have a *far* better grasp on the concepts involved than I do. Does there exist a book or (preferably) a web site that offers some tutorial-level explanations of corba's concepts (especially in the context in which you're talking)? - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 06:13:11 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:29:10 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: linas@linas.org cc: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > I built one of these, see http://teleportal.com, > http://siliconhillstravel.com, http://intransco.com > http://ontheflytravel.com for working examples. Its for > a travel res system. These sites all say they are closed for 'technical maintenance'. > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end > in corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have > a cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from > very begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back > end. I was very much looking forward to seeing a web application user interface with a CORBA backend and a JAVA frontend. > You won't understand what I'm saying until you actually get to version 2 > of your stuff, so take it on faith: the browser-as-client can be > way-too-thin at times. I don't think you have to take it on faith. Just compare what you can do with a browser and what you can do inside well designed applications software running on either on X-windows or from a character-based terminal. There is no comparison. > I'm tired of writing email, but if you pressure me, I can explain > the claims above, and provide tips about design decisions that turn out > to be important later. Just tell us when the sites will be back up. Seeing is believing. Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 07:01:53 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: dwj@aaronsrod.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:32:56 -0600 (CST) Cc: linas@linas.org, linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Hi, It's been rumoured that Dwight Johnson said: > > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > > I built one of these, see http://teleportal.com, > > http://siliconhillstravel.com, http://intransco.com > > http://ontheflytravel.com for working examples. Its for > > a travel res system. > > These sites all say they are closed for 'technical maintenance'. Hmm, Indeed. I am no longer involved in day-to-day operations. I can only assume that the sysadmins are up to something, but I have to admit that this kind of an outage is highly unusual. I normally discourage stuff like this. However, we are supposed to move the mainframe connection from Austin TX to Miami FL, and I can only assume tht its not going smoothly. The move is compounded by serious financial difficulties, I like to think of the whole thing as a technical success and a business disaster. The business people behind it are way out of thier league, and my mistake was to be a part of it. You can probably buy out the business at a fire-sale price, possibly as low as 1 M . It all runs on Linux :-) > I don't think you have to take it on faith. Just compare what you > can do with a browser and what you can do inside well designed > applications software running on either on X-windows or from a > character-based terminal. There is no comparison. Yep, but for the 2x per year airline ticket purchasor, big downloads or install of any sort are out of the question. It's gotta be plain html. th fancy gui would be for travel agents, etc. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 07:05:09 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:09:41 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm (Source: Phil Hughes, SSC) dwj ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 07:05:21 1998 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:30:02 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: linas@linas.org cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > The move is compounded by serious financial difficulties, I like > to think of the whole thing as a technical success and a business > disaster. The business people behind it are way out of thier league, > and my mistake was to be a part of it. I am sorry to hear it. > Yep, but for the 2x per year airline ticket purchasor, big downloads > or install of any sort are out of the question. It's gotta be plain > html. th fancy gui would be for travel agents, etc. But doesn't this same reasoning argue against a big java download? I remember when Deep Throat (err.. Blue :-)) was playing Kasparov, Big Blue had a java applet to replay the games. It took forever to download and then it was always bombing out! It really did nothing in my mind to advance the cause of java. Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 07:06:00 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: evan@telly.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:47:48 -0600 (CST) Cc: linas@linas.org, cobrien@access.digex.net, linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Evan Leibovitch said: > > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in > > corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a > > cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from very > > begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back end. > > OK,, Linas, you've sold me on the idea, though I need to have a *far* > better grasp on the concepts involved than I do. > > Does there exist a book or (preferably) a web site that offers some > tutorial-level explanations of corba's concepts (especially in the > context in which you're talking)? http://linas.org/linux/corba.html lists pointers to pointers. http://www.omg.org/ is the home site In short: corba allows you to make "network-transparent subroutine calls" (actually, since its OO, that would be "methods calls"). May not sound like a big deal until the day that you realize you need to have different servers and clients all talking to one another. Once you realize you need this, you are faced with: -- invent your own protocol, (traditional client-server, e.g. x11, http, telnet, ftp, mail are all roll-your-own protocols) -- use RPC's (NFS uses this, intellectual grandfather to corba) -- some web/cgi-bin thingy (super-thin client, fat server) -- sql running across tcp/ip (super-fat client, thin server) -- corba The first four don't cut it, so corbas the only choice left. Yeah, it still a low-level down-in-the guts technolgy, and it can easily become complex, fast. But it still better than the other choices. Don't know, we never got very far with the corba version, so a part of it is still a dream. But I've used all of the other techniques, so corba must be better. :-) --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 07:06:29 1998 From: linas@linas.org To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:06:01 -0600 (CST) Content-Type: text Subject: [linux-biz] Linux Enterprise (fwd) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com FYI. It's been rumoured that jean pierre laisne said: > From jplaisne@pick-systems.fr Thu Feb 26 16:42:45 1998 > Message-Id: <199802262110.WAA03804@kali.isicom.fr> > X-Sender: jplaisne@mail.pick-systems.fr > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:03:18 -0100 > To: pguillot@club-internet.fr, jeff@symphonie.fdn.fr, decibel@media-net.fr, > Bernard.LeRouzic@wanadoo.fr, mkervell@pratique.fr, > Lucien.Petit@alcove.fr, clb@alcove.fr, cesi@esi.fdn.org, > sbesnard@club-internet.fr, cerit@wanadoo.fr, manuf@planete.net, > fontain@imaginet.fr, 100060.1503@CompuServe.COM, easysoft@hol.fr, > ps@rii-diffusion.fr, adebrenne@rii-diffusion.fr, tpaumier@publicis.fr, > farzy@publicis.fr, gilles.paumier@soget.fr, xdevyl@alienor.fr, > pierre@alienor.fr, porcher.franck@spin.pf, gdixon@cromwells.co.uk, > drice@cromwells.co.uk, dmassot@cromwells.co.uk, > rberns@informationsupport.co.uk, sean@metier.co.uk, efvinfo@cmdnet.lu, > ggoeres@cmdnet.lu, ddinfo@cmdnet.lu, frelance@sarenet.es, > al_marvaso@friuldata.it, pier_butta@friuldata.it, > stefano_maran@friuldata.it, j.haederli@ibm.net, marcd@sbtech.ch, > roberts@ch.ci.garden-grove.ca.us, linas@linas.org, jab@tdata.com.au, > bryanb@ats.com.au > From: jplaisne@pick-systems.fr (jean pierre laisne) > Subject: Linux Enterprise > Cc: fermigie@math.jussieu.fr, jp@laisne.com > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Bonjour, > [Hello,] > > Sans doute avons nous deja du echanger des idees sur un de nos sujets > d'interet commun: les logiciels libres et plus particulierement Linux. > C'est dans cet esprit que je me permet de vous recontacter. > > [We have been in contact before to share thoughts about free softwares ] > [and mainly Linux. I am contacting you today for the same reason . ] > > Si vous pensez que l'informatique libre vous donne la possibilite de > mieux maitriser vos outils de production, de vous ouvrir au > developpement des nouvelles technologies dans votre entreprise, de > garantir l'independance et la perennite des solutions que vous proposez, > alors ce message vous concerne. Votre experience est vitale car elle > represente une solide reference pouvant aider au succes de > l'informatique libre et a sa propagation dans le "monde reel". > > [If you believe that free softwares offer you a better control over your ] > [production tools, a path to New Technologies for your company, insure ] > [independancy and perenity of the solutions that you provide, this message] > [is for you. Your experience is important because it represents a solid ] > [reference which can help to make free software successful and to see its ] > [propagation into "real world". ] > > Stefane Fermigier et moi-meme menons actuellement une etude sur l'impact > des logiciels libres sur l'industrie et plus precisement sur > l'entreprise. Vous trouverez un questionnaire ci-apres auquel nous > esperons que vous pourrez consacrer quelques minutes. Son but est de > recenser, quantifier et qualifier l'usage des logiciels libres dans les > entreprises sollicitees afin de pouvoir constituer une base > referencielle permettant de demontrer l'adequation de ces outils aux > besoins des entreprises. Des etudes de cas tirees de vos reponses a ce > mini sondage illustreront notre etude. Ce travail devrait aboutir, au > mieux, a la publication d'un ouvrage, au pire, il sera diffusé librement > sur differents sites Web. Nous vous garantissons que les > informations que vous voudrez bien nous transmettre ne seront pas > utilisees dans un but commercial et que toute publication vous > concernant fera l'objet d'un accord prealable. > > [These days, Stephane Fermigier and myself are studying the impact of free ] > [softwares on the industry and precisely on the enterprise. You will find ] > [a questionnaire just after this message and we hope you will be able to ] > [take few minutes to fill it. Its goal is to quantify and qualify the use of ] > [free softwares in companies so we can build a referential database showing ] > [the right match of these tools with the needs of the enterprises. We will ] > [extract out of this mini survey some study cases to illustrate this study. ] > [In best case, this will be published as a book. In worst case, it will be ] > [freely available on the web. We garanty that the informations we will get ] > [from you, won't be used commercially and any publication of these informations] > [will need your approval. ] > > Nous estimons qu'il est temps que le secteur prive participe a > la croissance de ce secteur encore meconnu des entrepreneurs. Car si > nous pensons que ces logiciels sont d'une grande utilite, il manque > encore des "success stories" dont nous avons tous besoin pour faire > connaitre et vendre nos produits et/ou nos services. C'est pourquoi nous > vous serions tres reconnaissant si vous acceptiez de consacrer quelques > minutes a cette etude qui, nous l'esperons, sera profitable a tous. > > [We think that it is time for the private side of this industry to help > ] > [this "free software" activity to grow. Because if we think that these > softwares ] > [are very useful, we still miss "success stories" which we all need to > promote ] > [and sell our productions and/or our services. That why we will be very > thanksful ] > [if you take some time to answer to this email and we will do our best to > make this] > [study profitable for everyone. > ] > > Merci de votre attention et, par avance, de votre aide. > [Thanks for your attention and help.] > > Cordialement, > [Fondly,] > > Jean-Pierre LAISNE > jplaisne@pick-systems.fr > Directeur Technique > Pick Systems Europe > > Stefane FERMIGIER > fermigie@math.jussieu.fr > Maitre de Conference > Université Paris 7 > > ======================== Questionnaire > > Informations Generales / General Informations > --------------------------------------------- > > Nom du Contact / Contact Name : > > Titre / Position : > > Adresse Email / Email Address : > > Nom de la Societe / Company Name : > > Adresse 1 / Address 1 : > > Adresse 2 / Address 2 : > > Adresse 3 / Address 3 : > > Ville / City : > > Code Postal / Zip Code : > > Pays / Country : > > Telephone / Phone : > Fax : > Adresse Web / Web Site : > > Activite(s) Principale(s) / Main Activity : > > Chiffre d'Affaire (facultatif) / Growth Figure (not mandatory) : > > Configuration : > --------------- > > Systemes d'Exploitation Utilises sur les postes Clients : > Operating System used on Client stations : > > [ ] MS Dos > [ ] Windows 3, 3.11 > [ ] Windows 95 > [ ] Windows NT WorkStation > [ ] Apple Mac 7 > [ ] Apple Mac OS9 > [ ] Xwindows > [ ] IBM OS/2 > [ ] Terminal Asynchrone / Asynchronous Terminal > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > A Preciser / Which One : > > Nombre total de postes clients / Total number of client stations : > > Systemes d'Exploitation Utilises sur les Serveurs : > Operating systems used on Servers : > [ ] IBM Mainframe > [ ] Bull Mainframe > [ ] AS400 > [ ] Unix Mini : AIX, DG/UX, HP/UX, Sinix, Solaris > [ ] Unix Intel : SCO, Unixware,Solaris86, Linux, FreeBSD > [ ] Windows NT Server > [ ] Novell Netware > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > A Preciser / Which One : > > Nombre total de serveurs / Total number of servers : > > Reseau / Network > ---------------- > > Type de reseau utilise / Type of network used : > [ ] LAN > [ ] WAN > > [ ] Serie / Serial, Asynchrone / Asynchronous > [ ] Ethernet > [ ] RTC > [ ] ISDN > [ ] FDDI > [ ] Frame Relay > [ ] ATM > > Protoocoles utilises / Protocols used : > [ ] TCP/IP > [ ] LanMAnager, NetBeui > [ ] Netware > [ ] Appletalk > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > A Preciser / Which One : > > > Logiciels Libres / Free Softwares : > ----------------------------------- > > Logiciel(s) Libre(s) Utilise(s) / Free Software(s) used : > > Description du cadre d'Utilisation / Description of usage domain : > > Benefices tires de l'Utilisation du/des Logicilel(s) Libre(s) > [Profits gained with the usage of Free Software(s)] : > > Description de l'Application Critique > [Description of the Critical Mission Application] : > > Avenir de l'Application et/ou Futur(s) Projet(s) > [Future of the Application and/or Future Project(s)] : > > Nombre de sites concernes (Adresse(s) et Reference(s) eventuelle(s)) > [Number of concerned Sites (eventually Address(es) and Reference(s))]: > > Nombre d'Utilisateurs / Number of Users : > > Support Technique / Technical Support : > --------------------------------------- > > Pour les Logiciels Libres, quelle(s) source(s) de support technique utilisez > vous ? > [For the Free Software(s), what kind of support do you get ?] > > [ ] Societe ou Consultant / Company or Consultant > Reference(s) : > > > [ ] Distributeur ou Distribution / Distributor or Distribution > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Newsgroup > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Web. > Reference(s) : > > > [ ] Documentation > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > Reference(s) : > > Formation / Training : > ---------------------- > > Comment vous etes vous forme / How were you train ? > > [ ] Autoformation / All By Yourself > Temps passe / Number of Hours spent : > > [ ] Societe ou Consultant / Company or Consultant > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Newsgroup > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Web > Reference(s) : > > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > Reference(s) : > > > Linux : > ------- > Si vous utilisez Linux, veuillez preciser depuis quand : __ / __ / __ > [If you use Linux, since when ? ] __ / __ / __ > > Si vous utilisez Linux, veuillez preciser quelle distribution ? > [If you use Linux, which distribution ?] > > [ ] Slakware > [ ] Debbian > [ ] RedHat > [ ] Suse > [ ] Ygddrasil > [ ] Autre(s) / Other(s) > Reference(s) : > > Si vous utilisez Linux, veuillez SVP noter sur 10 les points suivants : > [If you use Linux, please put a figure up to 10 to qualify the following points] > > Performance : __ / 10 > Securite / Security : __ / 10 > Fiabilite / Reliabiliy : __ / 10 > Support : __ / 10 > Documentation : __ / 10 > Installation : __ / 10 > Administration : __ / 10 > Evolutivite / Scalablity : __ / 10 > Ouverture / Open Systems : __ / 10 > Integration a l'Existant / Integration to existing system : __ / 10 > > Commentaires / Comments > ------------------------ > A votre avis, quels sont les points forts, > les points faibles de Linux ainsi que les ameliorations souhaitables ? > [In your opininion which are the qualities, weaknesses and whished > enhancements ?] > > > > Comptez vous a l'avenir, continuer a utiliser Linux ou des solutions libres ? > [In the future will you keep on using Linux or free solutions ?] > OUI/YES [ ] > NON/NO [ ] > > Si oui, de plus en plus ? > If yes, more and more ? > OUI/YES [ ] > NON/NO [ ] > > Diffusion / Publication > ----------------------- > Acceptez vous que ces informations soient rendues publiques ? > [Do you agree to make these informations public ?] > OUI/YES [ ] > NON/NO [ ] > > Acceptez vous d'etre contacte pour la suite de cette enquete ? > [Would you accept further contact for this survey ?] > OUI/YES [ ] > NON/NO [ ] > > > Si vous connaissez d'autres personnes susceptibles de repondre a ce > questionnaire, > merci de nous communiquer leur adresse e-mail. > [If you know other people that could be concerned by this questionnaire,] > [please give us their email address.] > > > > ================================================ Fin / End > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 10:01:35 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: dwj@aaronsrod.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:00:15 -0600 (CST) Cc: linas@linas.org, linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Dwight Johnson said: > > the fancy gui would be for travel agents, etc. > > But doesn't this same reasoning argue against a big java download? The travel agent would be using it 8 hours a day. it would be an install, a stand-alone java app, instead of a broswer-embedded applet, or something like that. We never worked out the details. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 10:01:57 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:16:25 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: exec@softdisk.com cc: "Donald B. Marti Jr." , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Eric L. Green wrote: > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Donald B. Marti Jr. wrote: > > Give the software > > away and sell the books. It seems to work for Larry Wall and > > O'Reilly. Only to a point; now that Perl is *really* popular, there are a lot of books out from which Wall doesn't make a cent. > Actually, a better (or worse) model would be TeX or LaTeX. Leslie > Lamport's book on LaTeX was for years the only reference text on LaTeX and > a quite pricey one at that. That was because of the funky binding :-). > There is no on-line documentation bundled with > LaTeX as far as I can tell, unlike the extensive (like, 4-inch stack of > laser-printed pages) on-line documentation that comes with Perl5. To be honest, there *are* other resources (one of which involved joining TUG, the TeX users' group). But I don't begrudge Lamport the ability to earn some royalty money; if someone wanted to do a freeware LaTeX doc there's nothing to stop them. To keep going along this continuum, there's Kermit, which does everything it can to prevent you from getting C-Kermit or DOS-Kermit without the book. Unlike LaTeX, makers of CDROM distributions are prohibited from including Kermit, and it cannot be put on BBSs or anon-FTP sites besides Columbia's own site (http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/). Why? If you surf to Columbia you get messages begging you to buy the book. It's like tuning into PBS during freakin' pledge-break week. And unlike with LaTeX, Kermit *at one time* had online documentation that was *withdrawn* in order to drive sales of the book. > Personally, I consider software such as TeX for which adequate on-line > documentation does not exist to be 'crippleware', no different from all > the crippled 'shareware' programs that afflict the Windows world. If it > weren't for the status of Donald Knuth in the academic world I doubt that > anybody would have bothered looking at TeX, 'free' or not. I disagree. Many people won't begrudge Knuth and Lamport's particular method of writing OpenSource software and still being able to pay the mortgage. (After all, one book can serve a *lot* of eyes). And, BTW, there's a significant amount of usable LaTeX docs in the Linux 'tetex' package. Still, if this scheme encourages more authors, who would not otherwise be writing OpenSource software, to do so, bring them on. > In short: I don't think you can call it "open source software" unless you > have at least the Perl level of available on-line documentation. Well, I will. Even Kermit, whose licensing limits I find thoroughly detestable, still qualifies to me as OpenSource stuff which pushes the envelope. Ditto KDE. Even at its worst, this stuff is still far preferable to "hoardware". ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan Leibovitch * Xunil Computing * Brampton, Ontario, Canada * www.xunil.com Supporting Intel-based Unix and Linux since 1985 * Caldera & SCO authorized "Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 10:05:01 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:25:23 +0000 From: Michael Morrison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.32 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Dwight Johnson wrote: > > > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm > (Source: Phil Hughes, SSC) Poor slobs have been assimilated ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 13:14:07 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:46:55 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Linux Business Discussion Group cc: "T. Alexander Popiel" , Bruce Perens X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Subject: [linux-biz] Two interesting comments to: (Brain of Stig) "Open Source"??? Bleeeeeech! X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com These posts didn't make it 'cause they were by non-subscribers, but worthwile, I feel: __________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:40:39 +0000 From: Bruce Perens To: linux-biz@lege.com, Stig HackVän Cc: Brain of Stig Subject: (Brain of Stig) "Open Source"??? Bleeeeeech! From: "Stig HackVän" > - It's too long. > - Way too vague. It's "Open Source(R)", not "Open Source Software". I despair of explaining this concept in two words, _whatever_ words I use. "Free Software" doesn't do it either, and has hurt us in some markets. > - It sounds related to OSF, which produces proprietary software. OSF is out of business. They were replaced by TOG. > What good does it do to replace it with another vague word, "open", > that has 14 adjective meanings, 13 verb meanings, and 3 noun meanings? It's a trademark. That allows us to attach a special meaning to it and make it stick. I like made-up names like "Kodak" and "Debian" because they have no other referents. However, it's much easier to sell a product with a made-up name than a concept. People have been looking at the name for years, and have never really come up with one that everyone likes, so they did _nothing_. We made an engineering decision - we picked a name and went with it rather than wait for something perfect. Thanks Bruce __________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:04:35 +0000 From: "T. Alexander Popiel" To: Stig HackV n Cc: linux-biz@lege.com, Brain of Stig , popiel@pecan.snugharbor.com Subject: (Brain of Stig) "Open Source"??? Bleeeeeech! In message: <19980223054729.16972.qmail@hackvan.com> "Stig HackV n" writes: > >I like "cooperative software" better than "open source software", because it >captures the essence of what makes our stuff different from the offerrings >of the proprietary world of "commercial software" world. I like. - Alex __________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 13:14:10 1998 Date: 27 Feb 1998 11:11:56 -0000 To: Linux in Business From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] (0xdeadbeef) Rhapsody-Linux rumor X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- To: 0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org Subject: Rhapsody-Linux story Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:36:39 -0500 Forwarded-by: "Zeller, Eric (NLC-EX)" From: Thomas Poff OS Consolidation at Apple: will Rhapsody and MkLinux merge? After weeks of sitting on top of the news, it finally appears that this story -- a mix of speculation, hope, and pieced-together statements made by _Apple Enterprise_ and _MkLinux_ team members - -- is safe enough for public consumption. Approximately three weeks ago, after having seen hints by MkLinux team members posted in public forums (newsgroups, web discussion boards, etc.) statements such as "The line between Rhapsody and MkLinux is blurring more every day," and "we've all been so busy working on Rhapsody," Rumors got in touch with its most trusted sources. What came back was tentative -- but revolutionary. While Rumors remains skeptical that this is for real, it is a very exciting possibility that bears fleshing out: Through the advanced capabilities of the Mach 3.0 microkernel, developers are reportedly working to replace much of the workings of _Rhapsody_'s core OS with code from MkLinux. From here, this project could go one of two ways: a Yellow Box for Mklinux, which would allow graphical Rhapsody applications to run alongside the many command-line programs available for the most popular UNIX in the world -- Linux. The second possibility, while significantly less likely, is enticing: that rather than acting as a separate OS, MkLinux and Rhapsody would become one OS, with Linux terminals and even XTerms running in Rhapsody windows and providing the new core OS for Rhapsody on both the PowerPC and Intel platforms. Over the course of several years, Apple would end up with a kernel and core OS that could be made freely available, including source code -- to entice developers - -- while keeping the graphical Yellow Box, with all its advanced capabilities, commercial....providing stable revenue for Apple. At present, the basis for this rumor is shaky; two parts speculation for each part fact. However, if this is the direction in which Apple is going, it could make big waves. To assist in ascertaining whether this is for real, or merely a developer's pipe dream funneled through the all-to-familiar "telephone" effect, we're putting out an all-cars. If you or anyone you know may have information that can help us form a clearer picture of the reality of this rumor, please take a moment to _contact Rumors_. ------- end ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:01:08 1998 From: Matthew.Rice@ftlsol.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: evan@telly.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:39:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Does there exist a book or (preferably) a web site that offers some > tutorial-level explanations of corba's concepts (especially in the > context in which you're talking)? This might be overkill for you Evan but I'm definitely going to take a look at it: Java Programming With CORBA http://www.wiley.com/compbooks/vogel/ It should be out by now and the author claimed that it's agreat book :) He specifically mentioned that there is a portion on design patterns which I hope will be worth the price of admission. I also have a book: Instant CORBA ISBN which I could lend you. I'm still on the first chapter but it seems to be aimed at a basic/intermediate introduction with a "management" set of side bar tips for those with no attention span. Also follow the links around Linas' web site. I know that there are some tutorials around there: http://linas.org/linux/corba.html Regards, -- Matthew Rice e-mail: matthew.rice@ftlsol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:01:29 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:40:24 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > Hi, > > It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > > > > > Is there merit to building applications such as accounting packages > > > using a web browser as the front end? > > Yes. > > > I sure hope so, because that's what we are doing in several places. > > The thin client greatly simplifies managing client software -- you > > just need to install netscape! > > I built one of these, see http://teleportal.com, > http://siliconhillstravel.com, http://intransco.com > http://ontheflytravel.com for working examples. Its for > a travel res system. > > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end > in corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have > a cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from > very begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back > end. > > You won't understand what I'm saying until you actually get to version 2 > of your stuff, so take it on faith: the browser-as-client can be > way-too-thin at times. > I _think_ I agree with you. Maintaining state with a stateless client requires a lot of pointless error-prone overhead, and makes seemignly simple tasks impossible. Just yesterday a salesman ran a web-based demo and forgot to close the browser. Called me up and said 'can you make sure he is logged out' -- sorry, no can do with just HTTP/HTML. As for the cgi-bin interface itself, I'm not sure what you are referring to. We use embedded perl and the CGI module which deals with the mechanics of getting query parameters and also allows persistant back-end connections. (To a tuxedo-based backend). Still, it is a slow, slogging process to create complex entry page sets. However the very thin-ness and ubiquity of the browser as a client makes this approach the way to go up to some reasonable level of application complexity. After a while you run into problems with the simplistic GUI capabilities of forms (no cascaded selection, for example), and my experiments with javascript have not been encouraging. Another advantage of browser-only (or should that be HTML-only?) clients is you can mock up a prototype, tell your boss (or his boss!) to check out http://your-trusty-linux-box/fantastic-new-product, and really get things moving. This can be pretty effective. So I'd modify your statement and say for front-ends browser+cgi (or eperl) is fine for prototyping and for basic apps, but seriously plan for java clients early on in development if the thin-client doesn't cut the mustard, so to speak. As for backends, my feeling is to start out with a real RDBMS, no matter how simple the project seems. No flat files for me!. Comments/Criticisims welcome. -- cary NB: 1) I've done lots of web apps with embedded scripting languages talking to RDBMS's or backend systems. 2) Our current 'big backend' uses tuxedo. 3) On one project we will be providing java clients as an added cost feature. 4) Never used corba, heard good things about it. 5) Haven't done more than trivial Java clients, but I'm _trying_ to rectify that situation. > I'm tired of writing email, but if you pressure me, I can explain > the claims above, and provide tips about design decisions that turn out > to be important later. > > --linas > > > Extra Credit: > > > > Anyone know of an X plugin for netscape? It would turn netscape into > > an x-server. > > Its called "broadway", and the x consortium (now the open group??) > is working on it. Should be in beta, at least, don't know if it runs on > linux yet. > > --linas > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:13:18 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:20:40 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Michael Morrison cc: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Michael Morrison wrote: > Dwight Johnson wrote: > > > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm > Poor slobs have been assimilated Yeah, the propaganda element was hard to miss -- especially the story of the first guy who was described as "understanding Unix", but appreciated the superiority of the Windows way of computing. - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:13:45 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:19:13 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Two interesting comments to: (Brain of Stig) "Open Source"??? Bleeeeeech! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > In message: <19980223054729.16972.qmail@hackvan.com> > "Stig HackV n" writes: > > > >I like "cooperative software" better than "open source software", because it > >captures the essence of what makes our stuff different from the offerrings > >of the proprietary world of "commercial software" world. I like cooperative software too but not better than open source. But the decision has already been made and has critical mass-- it's open source. All we have to do now is educate the press. 'cooperative' can come along as a further descriptive adjective. Dwight ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:13:48 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:56:02 -0800 From: Rob Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: evan@telly.org Cc: mike@ringo.reno.nv.us, linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com >>>>> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:20:40 -0500 (EST), Evan Leibovitch >>>>> said: Evan> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Michael Morrison wrote: >> Dwight Johnson wrote: >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm >> Poor slobs have been assimilated Evan> Yeah, the propaganda element was hard to miss -- especially the story of Evan> the first guy who was described as "understanding Unix", but appreciated Evan> the superiority of the Windows way of computing. was that the same guy who was using linux since 1989, two years before Linus was using it? rob ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:13:57 1998 From: linas@linas.org Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: cobrien@access.digex.net (Cary B. O'Brien) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:59:30 -0600 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > Maintaining state with a stateless > client requires a lot of pointless error-prone overhead, Bing!!!! > We use embedded perl and the CGI module which deals Have you ever given your embedded pel web page to an artist, and say "make the colors nice, use a good logo, and move these buttons from the top to the bottom of the screen? " The artist replies "I tried opening your code in my favorite html wysiwyg tool, and nothing worked". Haha. translation to foreign langs is also hard, and if you have 10's or hundreds of web sites using the same code, but with different page backgrounds, different layouts, different logos, etc. then maintenance, enhancements, updates become a nightmare. > As for backends, my feeling is to start out with a real RDBMS, no > matter how simple the project seems. No flat files for me!. Yes. --linas ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:14:08 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:42:24 -0600 (CST) From: "Eric L. Green " To: Evan Leibovitch cc: linas@linas.org, "Cary B. O'Brien" , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in > > corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a I'll agree on cgi-bin being rather nasty and ugly, not to mention slow. What about the FastCGI interface? Have you looked at it lately? Does it make things uglier, or what? As for HTML forms not being the ideal user interface, well, yes. But they're device independent and will run on things that won't run Java (e.g. dumb terminals using Lynx). Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants Systems Specialist Educational Administration Solutions "We believe Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:14:42 1998 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:23:04 -0500 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Marc Sherman Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Control an NT box from Xwindows (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I did a search for "VCN" at their site but nothing matched. Do you have a more specfic URL? tia, ..Marc At 04:13 PM 2/26/98 -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:43:22 -0500 >From: James Ervin >Reply-To: inet-access@earth.com >To: inet-access@earth.com >Subject: Control an NT box from Xwindows >Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:44:46 -0700 (MST) >Resent-From: inet-access@earth.com > >Just wanted to mention an app that saved me a few headaches: > >VCN byOlivetti-Oracle Laboratory >(http://www.orl.co.uk/); > >You can take over the desktop of an NT/95/Xwindows system from any >NT/95/Xwindows system. It is small, portable and can be run as a java app >through a web browser. Now I can sit at my linux box and >check/restart/re-boot >the NT boxes in the system. > >Sort of like PCAnywhere, but can be run through the web and through Xwindows. >It is also under the GPL, so it is free. > > > > >James Ervin >City of Bedford Network Administration >admin@ci.bedford.va.us >(540)586-7156 > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:16:40 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:20:07 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: Marc Sherman cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Control an NT box from Xwindows (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com VNC... -- [L]inux has an installed base conservatively estimated at around 3 million users.... [V]endors say that most of the top companies in the US have bought the OS - but that few will readily admit to running their multimillion-dollar corporations on code put together by a band of software idealists. -- _Wired_ On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Marc Sherman wrote: > I did a search for "VCN" at their site but nothing matched. Do you have a > more specfic URL? > > tia, > ..Marc > > > At 04:13 PM 2/26/98 -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:43:22 -0500 > >From: James Ervin > >Reply-To: inet-access@earth.com > >To: inet-access@earth.com > >Subject: Control an NT box from Xwindows > >Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:44:46 -0700 (MST) > >Resent-From: inet-access@earth.com > > > >Just wanted to mention an app that saved me a few headaches: > > > >VCN byOlivetti-Oracle Laboratory > >(http://www.orl.co.uk/); > > > >You can take over the desktop of an NT/95/Xwindows system from any > >NT/95/Xwindows system. It is small, portable and can be run as a java app > >through a web browser. Now I can sit at my linux box and > >check/restart/re-boot > >the NT boxes in the system. > > > >Sort of like PCAnywhere, but can be run through the web and through Xwindows. > >It is also under the GPL, so it is free. > > > > > > > > > >James Ervin > >City of Bedford Network Administration > >admin@ci.bedford.va.us > >(540)586-7156 > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 18:16:42 1998 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:25:10 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > It's been rumoured that Cary B. O'Brien said: > > Maintaining state with a stateless > > client requires a lot of pointless error-prone overhead, > > Bing!!!! > Ok, we definitaly agree on that. > > We use embedded perl and the CGI module which deals > > Have you ever given your embedded pel web page to an artist, and > say "make the colors nice, use a good logo, and move these buttons from > the top to the bottom of the screen? " > > The artist replies "I tried opening your code in my favorite > html wysiwyg tool, and nothing worked". > > Haha. > Hold on, there. With embedded perl at least _some_ of the file is plain old html. That's at least better than pure-perl cgi scripts! One thing you can do is tell the graphic artist to mock up the pages first and then stick in the embedded perl. You can call out to packages, so the perl code can be kept to, oh, 3-4 lines. > translation to foreign langs is also hard, and if you have 10's or > hundreds of web sites using the same code, but with different page > backgrounds, different layouts, different logos, etc. then maintenance, > enhancements, updates become a nightmare. > I hear echoes of a nasty experience here. Let me make sure I understand your solution... You advocate going right to a um-er- middleweight java client right away, rather than holding off till complexity gets out of hand for the html-cgi solution, right? The only difference of opinion is that I think html/cgi has some advantages (works with non-java browsers, lots of people understand it) and may be ok for RAD/ proof of concept/ simple apps. Your feeling is that it's not sutiable for anything. Just trying to focus on the heart of the matter. One other question -- where do the graphic artists fit in with the java client solution. > > As for backends, my feeling is to start out with a real RDBMS, no > > matter how simple the project seems. No flat files for me!. > > Yes. > Another point of agreement. I'm batting .666! -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 19:01:00 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:44:42 -0700 From: Evelyn Mitchell To: Marc Sherman Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Control an NT box from Xwindows (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com The direct url is http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ We're taking a look at it right now and it works pretty well. It is slow, so I wouldn't recommend it for Windows games under Linux, but it certainly is fast enough for most of what I do with Windows (Quicken/Quickbooks). You get Windows within X and X within Windows. You share your X display anywhere you want. Sean said the install was easy. Regards, Evelyn mitchell efm@tummy.com On Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 09:23:04AM -0500, Marc Sherman wrote: > I did a search for "VCN" at their site but nothing matched. Do you have a > more specfic URL? > > tia, > ..Marc > > > At 04:13 PM 2/26/98 -0800, Michael Dillon wrote: > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > >Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:43:22 -0500 > >From: James Ervin > >Reply-To: inet-access@earth.com > >To: inet-access@earth.com > >Subject: Control an NT box from Xwindows > >Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:44:46 -0700 (MST) > >Resent-From: inet-access@earth.com > > > >Just wanted to mention an app that saved me a few headaches: > > > >VCN byOlivetti-Oracle Laboratory > >(http://www.orl.co.uk/); > > > >You can take over the desktop of an NT/95/Xwindows system from any > >NT/95/Xwindows system. It is small, portable and can be run as a java app > >through a web browser. Now I can sit at my linux box and > >check/restart/re-boot > >the NT boxes in the system. > > > >Sort of like PCAnywhere, but can be run through the web and through Xwindows. > >It is also under the GPL, so it is free. > > > > > > > > > >James Ervin > >City of Bedford Network Administration > >admin@ci.bedford.va.us > >(540)586-7156 > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 19:01:20 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:54:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric D. Berg" To: Evan Leibovitch Cc: linas@linas.org, "Cary B. O'Brien" , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Anyone have any thoughts on how XML might play into this. My understanding so far is that it will be a very powerful structured data delivery format which seems to me would be very apropriate to a Java front end. I'm in the same boat as many, though having much heresay knowledge, but no actual experience with either Java, CORBA or XML. -Eric. Eric Berg Linux rules. Sr. Web Engineer Sybase, Inc. http://support.sybase.com On Thu 26-February, Evan Leibovitch just HAD to say: > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in > > corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a > > cgi-bin front-end since that's what many will want, but *plan from very > > begining* to have a java client using corba/rmi to talk to the back end. > > OK,, Linas, you've sold me on the idea, though I need to have a *far* > better grasp on the concepts involved than I do. > > Does there exist a book or (preferably) a web site that offers some > tutorial-level explanations of corba's concepts (especially in the > context in which you're talking)? > > - Evan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 19:06:11 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:12:36 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric D. Berg" To: rob@cisco.com Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Now, Rob, be fair. (we can afford to, right?) They did say 1993. -Eric. Eric Berg Linux rules. Sr. Web Engineer Sybase, Inc. http://support.sybase.com On Fri 27-February, Rob Walker just HAD to say: > > >>>>> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:20:40 -0500 (EST), Evan Leibovitch > >>>>> said: > > Evan> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Michael Morrison wrote: > >> Dwight Johnson wrote: > >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm > > >> Poor slobs have been assimilated > > Evan> Yeah, the propaganda element was hard to miss -- especially the story of > Evan> the first guy who was described as "understanding Unix", but appreciated > Evan> the superiority of the Windows way of computing. > > was that the same guy who was using linux since 1989, two years before > Linus was using it? > > rob > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 21:01:56 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:27:08 -0800 From: Rob Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: eberg@sybase.com Cc: rob@cisco.com, linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com oh, I am sorry. I must have either 1. misread the article *and* misremembered a conversation on another list about it. 2. they have changed their web page based on user feedback. I would like for it to be #2, but I bet it was #1. thx, rob >>>>> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:12:36 -0800 (PST), "Eric D. Berg" said: Eric> Now, Rob, be fair. (we can afford to, right?) They did say 1993. Eric> -Eric. Eric> Eric Berg Linux rules. Eric> Sr. Web Engineer Eric> Sybase, Inc. Eric> http://support.sybase.com Eric> On Fri 27-February, Rob Walker just HAD to say: >> >> >>>>> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:20:40 -0500 (EST), Evan Leibovitch >> >>>>> said: >> Evan> On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Michael Morrison wrote: >> >> Dwight Johnson wrote: >> >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/?/ie/unix/devs.htm >> >> >> Poor slobs have been assimilated >> Evan> Yeah, the propaganda element was hard to miss -- especially the story of Evan> the first guy who was described as "understanding Unix", but appreciated Evan> the superiority of the Windows way of computing. >> >> was that the same guy who was using linux since 1989, two years before >> Linus was using it? >> >> rob >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 21:02:00 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:16:43 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: inet-access@earth.com cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Control an NT box from Xwindows (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com > I did a search for "VCN" at their site but nothing matched. Do you have a > more specfic URL? http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 21:02:13 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:06:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric D. Berg" To: exec@softdisk.com Cc: Evan Leibovitch , linas@linas.org, "Cary B. O'Brien" , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] A wild haired idea? X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I've got to mention Apache's API here. I've just begun to work with the mod_perl Perl wrapper for the C API. It's very cool. I recommend checking it out if you do Perl and have a need for the server-side wins. I'm very impressed, and have heard from quite respectable groups that they're using it. You can do filtering of content (i.e., server side include type stuff) as well as authentication and anythign that you can do with CGI, only it's server resident, so there's none of that ugly startup/cleanup that you have with CGI. -Eric. Eric Berg Linux rules. Sr. Web Engineer Sybase, Inc. http://support.sybase.com On Fri 27-February, "Eric L. Green " just HAD to say: > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > > One strong lesson I learned: cgi-bin is a nasty, nasty, ugly interface > > > to prgram to. I *very strongly* recommend writing the back end in > > > corba, and using a java front-end. Architect it so you can have a > > I'll agree on cgi-bin being rather nasty and ugly, not to mention slow. > What about the FastCGI interface? Have you looked at it lately? Does it > make things uglier, or what? > > As for HTML forms not being the ideal user interface, well, yes. But > they're device independent and will run on things that won't run Java > (e.g. dumb terminals using Lynx). > > Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants Systems Specialist > Educational Administration Solutions > "We believe Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 21:10:26 1998 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:46:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Eric Raymond's dissertation X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 From: jcc2@juno.com (John C Cusick) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:16:25 -0500 (EST) Evan Leibovitch writes: >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Eric L. Green wrote: > >> On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Donald B. Marti Jr. wrote: > >> There is no on-line documentation bundled with >> LaTeX as far as I can tell, unlike the extensive (like, 4-inch stack of >> laser-printed pages) on-line documentation that comes with Perl5. > >To be honest, there *are* other resources (one of which involved >joining TUG, the TeX users' group). But I don't begrudge Lamport the ability >to earn some royalty money; if someone wanted to do a freeware LaTeX doc >there's nothing to stop them. > >> Personally, I consider software such as TeX for which adequate >on-line documentation does not exist to be 'crippleware', no different from >all the crippled 'shareware' programs that afflict the Windows world. If >it weren't for the status of Donald Knuth in the academic world I doubt >that anybody would have bothered looking at TeX, 'free' or not. > >I disagree. Many people won't begrudge Knuth and Lamport's particular >method of writing OpenSource software and still being able to pay the >mortgage. (After all, one book can serve a *lot* of eyes). And, BTW, >there's a significant amount of usable LaTeX docs in the Linux 'tetex' >package. True. > There is lots of of documentation available on the WWW. I recently downloaded 4 or 5 basic tutorials from a site in the UK that were very good. It was one of many mirror sites that I found doing a simple search on the word 'LaTeX'. All kinds of great add-in packages also - with documentation. Seek and ye shall find. JCC _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 22:47:17 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:41:38 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Linux Business Discussion Group X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] VNC anyone? [http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Anyone seen this? How well does it work? I'd love to have something like this at work so I could run both NT 4 and X-Win apps on the same "TV". :-) ... __________________________________________________________________ http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ What is VNC? - A practical introduction VNC stands for Virtual Network Computing. It is, in essence, a remote display system which allows you to view a computing 'desktop' environment not only on the machine where it is running, but from anywhere on the Internet and from a wide variety of machine architectures. __________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. PS: [OFFTOPIC], but does anyone have experience with accessing smb-mounted NT-filesystems from DOSEMU as lettered devices (D:, E: etc. ? (I have currently 73 remote NT shares mounted!... and would like to be able to run some oldtime MS-MAIL Admin program from Linux on them.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 22:48:38 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:01:26 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Linux Business Discussion Group X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] YES, I AM GUILTY (of posting first and reading post later) ;-) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I just posted a question if anyone heard of "VCN" ... 5 minutes later I notice everyone on linux-biz seems to have been talking about it for a couple of days. Oh well. Sorry about that. __________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 27 23:02:00 1998 Date: 27 Feb 1998 21:29:41 -0000 To: Linux in Business From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] Freedows 98 X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This looks like serious vaporware at this point, but I certainly wish them luck... http://home.inreach.com/chipchkn/freedows/english/news/news_971219.html By far, the most important issue to address, and one that has caused the greatest amount of concern as of late, is the development team status. Lloyd Duhon, Development Team Lead, has requested that I again reitterate that the development team is in need of members for the core team. The sole task at the moment for the core team is to develop a set of Kernel specifications. These specifications will quickly result in a solid core for the remainder of the OS. [...] Yep, quite an ambitious preannouncement. See http://www.freedows.org/ if you have the spare time... Stig ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- From: Dennis Allison To: stig@hackvan.com Subject: Freedows 98 [It had to happen ... -dra] Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:26:07 -0800 Message-Id: <199802272026.MAA31580@sumeru.stanford.EDU> Freedows 98 A new Linux for the masses? A liberation from Microsoft's desk top monopoly? Running applications you always wanted but that where not available for your platform? And all this for free? This almost sounds to good to be true, but this group of people collaborating on the Freedows project seem determined to make it happen. Not in the next 5 years or so, but this year. Wish them well and hope they succeed, because this would be a turning point in computing history. Read what they say about it and if you want to know more, pick one of the sites at the end of this page. Freedows is a free OS being developed under the GNU Public License. It's based on a design that will allow it to run programs from multiple OSes simultaneously. Freedows will be based on the "Cache Kernel" design developed by researchers at Stanford University. This design will be utilized to create an OS that is able to run applications from many different OSes, even those based on completely different processors and hardware, like the Macintosh or Amiga. Through the use of "application kernels," Freedows will be able to provide dynamically loaded, on-the-fly OS support. Much as your Internet browser can use plug-ins to view different types of files, Freedows will be able to have Application Kernels plugged in to provide additional OS support. In our final release, planned for sometime in 1998, we will include full Windows 16- and 32-bit emulation. This will include both support for Windows 95 applications and for Windows NT applications. Additionally, we will also provide support for DOS applications, likely through a port of FreeDOS. Future plans include a Linux AK in Freedows 1.2 (1999) and MacOS in Freedows 2.0 (2000). In addition, classic systems, such as the Commodore 64 and Tandy CoCo will also have emulations available under Freedows. In the Freedows team, we feel that easy customizability of the OS will be able to provide the user with something that is much more user-friendly to work in. This is why we are designing FOOIS, The Freedows Object Oriented Interface System. These "objects," which will include Windows, Buttons, and Dialog Boxes, will be fully changable. If you wish to have a different icon in your "Question" dialog box, you will be able to change that. If you wish to have a totally Mac like interface, that too will be possible. In fact, through the use of various "FOOIS GUI Schemes," you will be able to have your interface on any Freedows system that you wish to use. Just pop in the disk, click on a button, and away you go! Along with the Object Oriented Interface will be something that has been missing from recent GUI based OSes -- support for scripting languages. Freedows will provide a full range of integrated languages, for everything from task automation to application development. These will include, in our first release, a C++ compiler, a ReXX system and a Scheme/Visual Programming Language similar to Visual Basic. The final great part of Freedows is that all of this will be released under the GNU Public Licence. This will not only allow free distribution of binaries, but source code as well. And, through Development Kits and a "Patch Support Program," other 3rd party developers will be able to quickly create Freedows Applications, and AK's, as well as have us provide patches and drivers for any bugs that they repair. We plan on providng full access to Freedows source/binaries through the Internet, as well as providing, at cost, Freedows CD-ROM distributions. ------- end ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 28 00:01:39 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:37:10 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: Leif Erlingsson cc: Linux Business Discussion Group Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VNC anyone? [http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com I played with this last night and today. Last night I installed "test r6" (which is apparently already old) on a win95 osr2 machine, and was able to take it over from my libc5 based redhat 4.2 machine. I tried to coax "test r7" into installing onto a nt workstation in a lab at school but they're obviously locked down a little better than that. =) I suppose if I could get the result of the "setup" -- the app and the registry stuff -- I could probably have run it since they claim it can be run off of a floppy (maybe that's only the viewer half). Anyays, I gave up. I didn't try the binary on a redhat 5 (glibc) machine, though in retrospect I should have. I tried to compile the source and got an error which I don't recall off hand. So, I compiled the source on a solaris 2.5.1 machine and though makedepend whined a lot it built beautiflly. I tested the server and the viewer under solaris and it worked fine, albiet a bit differently than the win32 server does (necessarily, I'm not saying there's a bug). I haven't run it tough hard, just ran simple stuff like notepad, netscape, and so on. It had trouble with the colors of the windows wallpaper (a bitmap of some kittens playing) but no other color-related problems. You'll notice a palett shift on an 8 bit display connecting to another 8 bit display, I think. Ah well. I like it alot, and given that it's GPL'd I'm looking forward to people taking it and enhancing it, for instance, to have a better authentication scheme. I'd like to see it made pam-aware and let people write their own little pam.conf-ish entries to control who can get at their desktop. I think U. of Michigan has an NT/PAM type of thing working, so this could be doable for both server platforms. jim -- [L]inux has an installed base conservatively estimated at around 3 million users.... [V]endors say that most of the top companies in the US have bought the OS - but that few will readily admit to running their multimillion-dollar corporations on code put together by a band of software idealists. -- _Wired_ On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > > Anyone seen this? How well does it work? I'd love to have > something like this at work so I could run both NT 4 and > X-Win apps on the same "TV". :-) ... > __________________________________________________________________ > > http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ > > What is VNC? - A practical introduction > > VNC stands for Virtual Network Computing. It is, in essence, a > remote display system which allows you to view a computing > 'desktop' environment not only on the machine where it is running, > but from anywhere on the Internet and from a wide variety of > machine architectures. > > __________________________________________________________________ > Leif Erlingsson, DATA LEGE, Glavagatan 33, 123 71 Farsta, Sweden. > TEL +46 8 604-0995, FAX +46 8 605-2551, URL http://www.lege.com. > I remember the past. I am not doomed to buy Microsoft products. > > > PS: [OFFTOPIC], but does anyone have experience with accessing > smb-mounted NT-filesystems from DOSEMU as lettered devices (D:, E: > etc. ? (I have currently 73 remote NT shares mounted!... and > would like to be able to run some oldtime MS-MAIL Admin program > from Linux on them.) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 28 04:01:12 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:01:30 -0600 (CST) From: "Eric L. Green " To: Jim Hebert cc: Linux Business Discussion Group Subject: Re: [linux-biz] VNC anyone? [http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Jim Hebert wrote: > I didn't try the binary on a redhat 5 (glibc) machine, though in > retrospect I should have. I tried to compile the source and got an error I just tried it. It is no speed demon. The Java client is pretty much unusable in Netscape (Linux) or Exploder (Win95) due to the slow speed. The only saving grace is that the slow speed is apparently due to compression/decompression overhead -- I sat here looking at the load on my hub while it was running and unlike "X" it didn't saturate my network for big screen redraws. My next step is to try to run it over a modem... anybody tried that yet? Hmm, let me try it real quick... nope. Pretty much unusable :-(. (If you thought X was slow over a modem...). Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants Systems Specialist Educational Administration Solutions "We believe Windows 95 is a walking antitrust violation" -- Bryan Sparks ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 28 04:04:05 1998 Date: 27 Feb 1998 23:18:54 -0000 To: "What's all this Linux Business?" From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ Subject: [linux-biz] (News, RISKS) Risk: Massive NT Outage due to Registry corruption [mandrews@fd9ns01.okladot.state.ok.us] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) ------- From: mandrews@fd9ns01.okladot.state.ok.us Subject: Risk: Massive NT Outage due to Registry corruption Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:23:36 -0500 X-Digest: RISKS DIGEST 19.60 [This was sent me by someone at a Fortune-100 manufacturer, and is anonymized and sanitized at the original sender's request. It is genuine.] > The recent power fluctuations here in [placename] corrupted the NT > registries in our [server-community-names]. As a result, our entire NT > network (>10K machines) is down, and has been since 5 am this > morning. (I'm doing direct IP to [product-name] to do mail. Thank God.) > Once the registries got corrupted, the databases of user signons went, > too. And, of course, the tape backups won't load because NT requires a > timestamp somewhere in the guts that the tape image doesn't match to the > clock. So every NT server, and most NT workstations, won't do anything > except local work. > If this were just office workers, it would be annoying enough. But the > [product name] servers require such close tie-ins to the machine accounts > that they are dead -- guess what helps run our factories? Can you say loss > of $1M+ per hour?" > Why am I telling you? Because our NT guys have suddenly realized that this > is a good candidate for a denial of service attack: once the registries > get corrupted, the entire resource domain has to be reloaded by hand -- > and that apparently includes desktops. If you have ideas on how to go > check the registries on your NT servers, I'd suggest you go do so. In another letter, the original sender elaborates: > If you are recovering from this, every desktop user will have to > delete/disable their .pwl file to be able to get back on the > network, because that file hardcodes which domain server they are > on. HOWEVER, if they do that, they can then not get into any other service > on their desktop for which they've stored the password, because they're > all in that file. if the user doesn't remember the password, they're SOL, > because the latest patch from MS keeps the *.pwl files from being hackable > by the "standard" hacker and pwledit tools -- but it is also rendered > unreadable to the MS standard pwl editor, too. The total outage was in excess of 12 hours, and the loss-of-revenue from the outage is estimated to be more than $10 million. Mike Andrews, D.P. Director, Okla. Dept. of Transportation mandrews@fd9ns01.okladot.state.ok.us ------- end ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 28 04:05:18 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:14:24 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Linux in a box X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/opinion/0223/23mach.html The Zero Admin microserver. It runs Linux and all admin is via a web browser. -- Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 28 04:08:30 1998 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:13:36 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] VNC 3.3.1 RPM uploaded (fwd) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com These will show up at ftp.redhat.com in the contrib directory (probably) sometime in the next 24 hours. Dwight ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:31:55 +0100 From: Karl Wallner To: redhat-announce-list@redhat.com Subject: VNC 3.3.1 RPM uploaded Resent-Date: 27 Feb 1998 22:33:43 -0000 Resent-From: redhat-announce-list@redhat.com Resent-cc: recipient.list.not.shown:; Hello, I have uploaded vnc (Virtual Network Computing) RPMS. RPMS are built with RedHat 4.2 (sorry I've no 5.0 running, maybe next week). vnc-3.3.1-1.i386_libc5.rpm vnc-3.3.1-1.src.rpm What is VNC ? ============= VNC is a project of Oracle/Olivetti Research Lab. They have kindly released this software under GPL License. This is taken from: http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/ --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- VNC stands for Virtual Network Computing. It is, in essence, a remote display system which allows you to view a computing 'desktop' environment not only on the machine where it is running, but from anywhere on the Internet and from a wide variety of machine architectures. --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- SNIP --- It's a really great piece of software. You can view your X-Desktop from your Windows PC, and your Windows Desktop from your Linux or X-Workstation or everything else running Java. What is different to the original VNC ? ======================================= 1. Works with XFree86 (gzipped) fonts. 2. Integrated Java classes. 3. Moved everything in place. 3. Packed as RPM. Anything else ? =============== I also put packages for solaris (aka. slowlaris) into our download area. ftp://ftp.weps.de/sparc-sun-solaris2/vnc-3.3.1-1.sparc-sun-solaris2.pkg.gz ftp://ftp.weps.de/sparc-sun-solaris2/vnc-3.3.1-1.sparc-sun-solaris2.tar.gz ftp://ftp.weps.de/x86-sun-solaris2/vnc-3.3.1-1.x86-sun-solaris2.pkg.gz ftp://ftp.weps.de/x86-sun-solaris2/vnc-3.3.1-1.x86-sun-solaris2.tar.gz That's it ========= Please give me feedback on these packages. Please try to build them on RedHat 5.0 and on sparc and alpha architectures! If you think they should be built a different way, please let me know! Have Fun. Karl Wallner karl@weps.de -- To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-announce-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 1 10:03:14 1998 Date: 1 Mar 1998 08:21:10 -0000 To: exec@softdisk.com Cc: linas@linas.org, linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Cooperative Educational Software From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric L. Green wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 linas@linas.org wrote: > > So I'd sggest defining what "personal use" means. -- I'd say that > > niche-market commercial/govt-use software is potentially in danger > > of competition form Open Source just as much as the more mainstream > > stuff. > > I would agree. As I said, the more mainstream stuff like word processing > is most likely to be the LAST thing to be done under the Open Source > model. > > One idea we've tossed around here is forming a non-profit consortium to > develop educational administration software. After all, none of us are > going to get rich in this business anyhow, or even be able to afford a > Lexus (:-}). See also http://trp.research.apple.com/EdEconomy/ What is an Educational Object Economy? This EOE (http://trp.research.apple.com) is a community of Educators, Developers and Businesses working together to use, create, and collaborate upon Educational Java objects on the web. Currently, there are over 1350 educational Java objects in the library, covering virtually every subject area. These interactive simulations, illustrations, and exercises are available at no cost for anyone with web access to use. In contrast to many efforts, the EOE is a member-generated community where members can build upon their strengths. Instead of requiring Educators, for instance, to learn Java in order to affect which Java objects get created or modified, they can use their expertise (pedagogical and subject-related) to use the educational objects and give suggestions to (or even work with) Java developers to make better Java objects. For more information, check out the Adobe Acrobat version of our latest EOE Brochure. Feel free to print one out and pass it around! (If you don't have Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your machine, you can download it here) In general, an EOE is a community of people working together to improve the quality and availability of web-based learning materials. Apple, NSF, universities, publishers, and many others have created the first exemplar EOE (at http://trp.research.apple.com), and we are now helping others start their own EOEs. A key part of an EOE is web site technology that helps empower community members to work together. An EOE web site must allow members to easily gather, share, and add value to web-based materials of interest to the community. The technology required to set up an EOE is relatively straightforward. However, creating a vibrant community that is actively achieving its goals, and reflecting that activity through the web site, is a challenging task. > Said consortium in the preliminary discussions does not use the Open > Source model because, as one potential member put it, "why should others > get the benefit of software we're paying to develop?". What arguments > can/should I use in such a situation? Well, there are several tacks that you can take: explain the "prisoners' dilemma" explain that if they cooperate on development, they will spend less than the full cost that they would otherwise bear for an in-house application. ASK: Does it cost you anything extra to give your software away? ASK: Are you prepared to explain that they stand to set a good example for other entities who may share their in-house applications as a thank-you. > My argument: We can get those folks to join via offering support only to > members, thus reducing YOUR cost of membership. Thus the Open Source model > would actually be of benefit to the current members because it brings more > members into the pool. > > Any other arguments you can think of? Education has always been a stronghold for cooperative software and freeware because there are so many students. Younger students can't necessarily write code for their peers, but older students can do it. Stig ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 1 18:02:16 1998 From: jeff.covey@pobox.com (jeff covey) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Mailer: VM 6.37 under Emacs 19.34.1 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:16 EST X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "biffhero" == Rob Walker writes: biffhero> oh, I am sorry. I must have either biffhero> 1. misread the article *and* misremembered a biffhero> conversation on another list about it. biffhero> 2. they have changed their web page based on user biffhero> feedback. biffhero> I would like for it to be #2, but I bet it was #1. no, it was #2. m$ refered to that guy as using linux since 1989 until they got sick of getting (i imagine) several hundred emails an hour about it. - -- | ,-~~-.___. jeff covey, mailto:jeff.covey@pobox.com | | / | ' \ http://pobox.com/~jeff.covey | |( ) 0 baltimore, maryland 410-669-4926 | | \_/-, ,----' | | ==== // classical guitar, midi sequencing, | | / \-'~; /~~~(O) music notation, linux! and more! | | / __/~| / | for a list of files available from me, | |=( _____| (_________| send me mail with "send index" as subject | -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBNPl71TnaR8Cs0X0pAQEmcQP/d9Rr1IBOH/zFCU1hVRz+9xDyBkd02Jwz N/yR0F8RxrUXQqExhiRAvKJw3zbzzb9Uqhge8QPTIR725BJ5ODOcM1WBsNBaTQIc Z3HlPxtxv8gPuTLo686r/qdoR87mJ+jqorh4bISN0CAmmVuZQIws+0ATs5JXMXD6 zyxKBJQXnxI= =3Iec -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- safety experts say school bus passengers should be belted -- actual newspaper headline ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 2 04:01:43 1998 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:20:24 -0800 From: Rob Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: jeff.covey@pobox.com Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Linux and Unix at Microsoft X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:16 EST, jeff.covey@pobox.com (jeff covey) >>>>> said: >>>>> "biffhero" == Rob Walker writes: biffhero> oh, I am sorry. I must have either biffhero> 1. misread the article *and* misremembered a conversation biffhero> on another list about it. biffhero> 2. they have changed their web page based on user feedback. biffhero> I would like for it to be #2, but I bet it was #1. jeff> no, it was #2. m$ refered to that guy as using linux since 1989 jeff> until they got sick of getting (i imagine) several hundred jeff> emails an hour about it. ahhh, the vindication feels so good. thx, rob -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.7.1 Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBNPntM3Ie0vKywR5xAQEi9gP7BF0ZNcAhlQBSkfBjw4hFQPbr2uhPqII1 oSXDb3ACtCJTZ9CCRCutqUduO0O/1OJTSQ3SXvX05n+R7rQ38I5nMxgmPn0Kb/KV /ZN985WDY8EsQ0c/7svg1UIOvf+IHnWsNaA4jtiGXr/2Lg9DJGZjrUhFTPnvqaXD O1Chxtb9T4Y= =447+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 2 04:08:38 1998 Date: 2 Mar 1998 00:05:29 -0000 To: Evan Leibovitch Cc: linas@linas.org, Roger Hardwicke , exec@softdisk.com, linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Eric Raymond's latest From: "Stig HackVän" X-Face: 7!m2V|20yUv)(#F=t:=2WXX_ X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > This is totally possible. They have to deal with the possibility, though, > that their maintenance revenue opportunities could be undercut by someone > with no programming resources who just feeds off their work. Since > everything done is GPL'd, you can't stop someone else from using the code > *you* write, to compete with you on aftermarket services. While this phenomenon will definitely tend to put a cap on support prices, Cygnus Support has been raping and pillaging on gcc support for some time now. A port that they might have one day charged $50k to do may now