From popmail Fri Dec 27 21:52:33 1996 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:56:39 -0800 From: Da Borg MIME-Version: 1.0 To: idan@m-tech.ab.ca, linux-biz@lege.com CC: Red Hat Mailing List Subject: Dejanews's using Linux? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Hi, Today I was pointed out that the biggest public Usenet database, http://www.dejanews.com, is powered by SMP Linux on x86. Check: http://web1.dejanews.com/dnabout.html Regards, Da Borg From popmail Mon Jan 6 10:33:22 1997 Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:03:18 -0700 (MST) From: Idan Shoham To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: web site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Hi all! Has this list been slow lately, or have I been dropped from the list? Hmm... In either case -- I've updated the "anecdotal references" web site, at http://www.m-tech.ab.ca/linux-biz. In addition to adding some entries, I've setup an HTML form and CGI script to allow people to update information on the site. Please check out both the site and form, and send me feedback. After a bit of clean-up, I'll send a note to comp.os.www.announce and comp.os.linux.announce about this page. Regards, -- Idan Shoham, M-Tech idan@m-tech.ab.ca http://www.m-tech.ab.ca From popmail Sat Jan 11 14:00:51 1997 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:53:19 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: HOWTO/mini/Advocacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Status: RO I would just like to draw your attention to this mini-howto.... Linux Advocacy mini-HOWTO Paul L. Rogers, Paul.L.Rogers@li.org v0.3, 13 November 1996 This document provides suggestions for how the Linux community can effectively advocate the use of Linux. 1. About this document This is the Linux Advocacy HOWTO and is intended to provide guidelines and ideas to assist with your Linux advocacy efforts. This HOWTO was inspired by Jon ``maddog'' Hall when he responded to a request for feedback on guidelines for advocating Linux during NetDay96 activities. He responded positively to the guidelines and observed that they were the basis of a list of ``canons of conduct'' that would benefit the Linux community. The author and maintainer of the Linux Advocacy HOWTO is Paul L. Rogers . Comments and proposed additions are welcome. If you need to know more about the Linux Documentation Project or about Linux HOWTO's, feel free to contact the supervisor Greg Hankins . Greg Hankins will post this document to several national and international newsgroups on a monthly basis. 2. Copyright Information This HOWTO is Copyright © 1996 by Paul L. Rogers. All rights reserved. A verbatim copy may be reproduced or distributed in any medium physical or electronic without permission of the author. Translations are similarly permitted without express permission if it includes a notice on who translated it. Short quotes may be used without prior consent by the author. Derivative work and partial distributions of the Advocacy HOWTO must be accompanied with either a verbatim copy of this file or a pointer to the verbatim copy. Commercial redistribution is allowed and encouraged; however, the author would like to be notified of any such distributions. In short, we wish to promote dissemination of this information through as many channels as possible. However, we do wish to retain copyright on the HOWTO documents, and would like to be notified of any plans to redistribute the HOWTOs. We further want that all information provided in the HOWTOs is disseminated. If you have questions, please contact Greg Hankins, the Linux HOWTO coordinator, at gregh@sunsite.unc.edu. 3. Introduction The Linux community has known for some time that for many applications, Linux is a stable, reliable, robust (although not perfect) product. Unfortunately, there are still many people, including key decision-makers, that are not aware of the existence of Linux and its capabilities. If Linux and the many other components that make up a Linux distribution are to reach their full potential, it is critical that we reach out to prospective ``customers'' and advocate (being careful not to promise too much) the use of Linux for appropriate applications. The reason that many company's products have done well in the marketplace is not so much due to the product's technical superiority but the company's marketing abilities. If you enjoy using Linux and would like to contribute something to the Linux community, please consider acting on one or more of the ideas in this HOWTO and help others learn more about Linux. 4. Related Information Lars Wirzenius also has some thoughts about Linux advocacy. Linux International's goal is to promote the development and use of Linux. The Linux Documentation Project is an invaluable resource for Linux advocates. The Linux Advocacy Project's goal is to encourage commercial application developers to provide native Linux versions of their software. The Linux CD and Support Giveaway program is helping make Linux more widely available by encouraging the reuse of Linux CD- ROMs. Specialized Systems Consultants, Inc. (SSC) publishes the Linux Journal as well as the Linux Gazette , an online newsletter. 5. Advocating Linux · Share your personal experiences (good and bad) with Linux. Everyone knows that software has bugs and limitations and if we only have glowing comments about Linux, we aren't being honest. I love to tell people about having to reboot four times (three scheduled) in three years. · If someone has a problem that Linux may be able to solve, offer to provide pointers to appropriate information (Web pages, magazine articles, books, consultants, ...). If you haven't actually used the proposed solution, say so. · Offer to help someone start using Linux. · Try to respond to one ``newbie'' posting each week. Seek out the tough questions, you may be the only one to respond and you may learn something in the process. However, if you aren't confident that you can respond with the correct answer, find someone that can. · Seek out small software development firms and offer to make a presentation about Linux. · If the opportunity arises, make a presentation to your employer's Information Technology group. · If you need an application that is not supported on Linux, contact the vendor and request a native Linux version. · Participate in community events such as NetDay96 . While your first priority must be to contribute to the success of the event, use the opportunity to let others know what Linux can do for them. · Always consider the viewpoints of the person to which you are ``selling'' Linux. Support, reliability, interoperability and cost are all factors that a decision-maker must consider. Of the above, cost is often the least important portion of the equation. · Point out that the production of freely available software takes place in an environment of open collaboration between system architects, programmers, writers, alpha/beta testers and end users which often results in well documented, robust products such as Emacs, Perl and the Linux kernel. · Report successful efforts of promoting Linux to Linux International (li@li.org) and similar organizations. · Find a new home for Linux CD-ROMs and books that you no longer need. Give them to someone interested in Linux, a public library or a school computer club. A book and its CD-ROM would be most appropriate for a library. However, please be sure that making the CD-ROM publicly available does not violate a licensing agreement or copyright. Also, inform the library staff that the material on the CD-ROM is freely distributable. Follow up to make sure it is available on the shelves. 6. Canons of Conduct · As a representative of the Linux community, participate in mailing list and newsgroup discussions in a professional manner. Refrain from name-calling and use of vulgar language. Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your CEO. Your words will either enhance or degrade the image the reader has of the Linux community. · Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims at all costs. It's unprofessional and will result in unproductive discussions. · A thoughtful, well-reasoned response to a posting will not only provide insight for your readers, but will also increase their respect for your knowledge and abilities. · Don't bite if offered flame-bait. Too many threads degenerate into a ``My O/S is better than your O/S'' argument. Let's accurately describe the capabilities of Linux and leave it at that. · Always remember that if you insult or are disrespectful to someone, their negative experience may be shared with many others. If you do offend someone, please try to make amends. · Focus on what Linux has to offer. There is no need to bash the competition. We have a good, solid product that stands on its own. · Respect the use of other operating systems. While Linux is a wonderful platform, it does not meet everyone's needs. · Refer to another product by its proper name. There's nothing to be gained by attempting to ridicule a company or its products by using ``creative spelling''. If we expect respect for Linux, we must respect other products. · Give credit where credit is due. Linux is just the kernel. Without the efforts of people involved with the GNU project, MIT, Berkeley and others too numerous to mention, the Linux kernel would not be very useful to most people. · Don't insist that Linux is the only answer for a particular application. Just as the Linux community cherishes the freedom that Linux provides them, Linux only solutions would deprive others of their freedom. · There will be cases where Linux is not the answer. Be the first to recognize this and offer another solution. 7. User Groups · Participate in a local user's group. If one does not exist in your area, start one. · Make speakers available to organizations interested in Linux. · Issue press releases about your activities to your local media. · Discus the Linux Advocacy HOWTO at a meeting. Brainstorm and submit new ideas. 8. Acknowledgements Grateful acknowledgement is made to all contributors, including: Jon "maddog" Hall Greg Hankins Eric Ladner Martin Michlmayr C. J. Suire Lars Wirzenius -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Wed Jan 15 00:01:01 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 05:15:27 -0800 (PST) From: Allen Francom To: Leif Erlingsson cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > We are 213 members on linux-biz ... have we said all there is to say about > linux in a business environment already, or has the discussion moved else- > where? I for one have been extremely busy, so much so as to not have the time or energy left to post. I've been curious about what happened and where the action has gone. Perhaps the list needs more specific guidelines ? THX -AEF From popmail Wed Jan 15 00:01:11 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:52:47 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz We are 213 members on linux-biz ... have we said all there is to say about linux in a business environment already, or has the discussion moved else- where? -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Wed Jan 15 00:01:16 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:24:28 +0000 (GMT) From: "exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green)" To: linux-biz@lege.com cc: Leif Erlingsson Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Perhaps we're all too busy doing linux bizness :-). Question: Anybody here do networking? I have a client who wants fiber links between buildings on a campus, all hooked up in a star configuration from the central (administration) building. I plan on using an existing Linux box as a router to divide the network up. The problem: once we get to the building, I have to go from fiber down to 10base-T or 10base-2. (The purpose of the fiber, by the way, isn't speed -- it's because this fellow's had to replace thousands of dollars of equipment due to poor electrical grounding of his campus, and is tired of it). So: My guess is that I need: a) an AUI-to-FOIRL transciever on the network card on the Linux router, b) a FOIRL-to-10base(x) REPEATER at the other end. Question #1: Can I reduce the # of network cards I need by using an AUI fanout at the central Linux hub for my transcievers? (Note that network cards are cheaper than repeaters, by the way). Question #2: Any "gotchas" I need to be wary of? -- Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net From popmail Wed Jan 15 06:04:26 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:15:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr." To: Leif Erlingsson cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > > $ wc -l linux-biz > 213 linux-biz > > > We are 213 members on linux-biz ... have we said all there is to say about > linux in a business environment already, or has the discussion moved else- > where? Don't know. But I wonder if this is the fate of "new movements"? It is not easy to sustain a continued interest in doing things. I think the history of debian, linux itself, and the FSF sort of bears this out. It takes a *lot* of work by some dedicated individuals. This is not to say there are not dedicated individuals in linux-biz, but there is *SO MUCH* out here on the net vying for our interest..... It seems to me that a lot of the traffic on linux-biz was "wouldn't it be nice if we had ....." What is the *output* of such a theme? Debian and FSF have a focus -- it is to produce output -- a distribition in the case of debian, and more free gnu software in the case of the FSF. These efforts require the dedicated and directed effort of *many* volunteers. The efforts are usually defined as "projects" that an individual volunteer will "take on". I have not detected this viewpoint from the linux biz traffic. Perhaps, like me, others on the list have been "snagged" by other projects. It would be interesting to see the comments from the 212 about what they expect from the list. When I joined I was hoping to see a linux "distribution" that installed as seamlessly as Windows-95. With a common look-and-feel to all the tools that ran under the linux-biz "distribution". Probably an off-the-wall expectation. Are there 212 more off-the-wall expectations? Best Regards, Joe Hartmann Tel: (603) 863 6073 K2AJV -issued email: joeh@sugar-river.net 1951 home-page: http://www.sugar-river.net/~joeh ------------------------------------------------------------- First Student at the: Linux Academy in the Sunshine Town of Newport, NH Thanks to RMS, Linus, and other contributors of free software! ------------- I grant this to the public domain ------------- > > > -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 > Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 > > > > From popmail Wed Jan 15 06:05:05 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:40:22 +0100 (MET) From: Kris Carlier To: Leif Erlingsson cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Leif, > We are 213 members on linux-biz ... have we said all there is to say about > linux in a business environment already, or has the discussion moved else- > where? You asked for it ;-) I was wondering whether someone overhere is using LOGICS software on a linux-system. Logics is a package that allows clients, using different kinds of operating environments (we use Dos, Windows (incl. Win95 and NT) and OS/2) to access SIEMENS mainframes using terminal emulation or for file transfer. Actually, we run the emulation gateway on SINIX-servers. As this ends in -IX, it can't be bad ? Well... it ain't bad indeed. If you don't mind statements like "the 'man' COMMAND is free, of course it's included ! The man PAGES ? Well, you should buy them, mind you, it's for your very best sake... You don't wanna fill your harddisks with man-pages (never heard about optional installations I presume). I guess the same goes for their compiler... optional stuff. etc etc etc etc... RE-installing a machine takes about one day... HW is pure 80x86. I *guess* that the machines should perform a little better under linux, in their current configuration... Also, it could help us better to defend that solution against the NT-version, which doesn't (afaik) exist (yet) ;-) Anybody on this list who has ever heard about it yet ? I guess I should try with IBCS first, but this will require me to install it on one of my personal boxes. I'd like to be sure nobody else found out there's warm water coming from the right crane ;-) kr= \\\___/// \\ - - // ( @ @ ) +---------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------+ | kris carlier - carlier@iguana.be | | Hiroshima 45, Tsjernobyl 86, Windows 95 | | Linux, the choice of a GNU gener8ion | +------------------------Oooo-------------+ oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) From popmail Wed Jan 15 06:05:32 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:22:59 -0700 (MST) From: Idan Shoham To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO I don't think we've said all there is to say... The visitation and updates to the "anecdotal references" site seem to indicate a strong interest... There have been about 500-600 hits/day on this stuff. Perhaps there are more people "listening" than "talking"? ;-) -- Idan Shoham, M-Tech idan@m-tech.ab.ca http://www.m-tech.ab.ca P.S. that site is at http://www.m-tech.ab.ca/linux-biz On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > > $ wc -l linux-biz > 213 linux-biz > > > We are 213 members on linux-biz ... have we said all there is to say about > linux in a business environment already, or has the discussion moved else- > where? > > > -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 > Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 > > > From popmail Wed Jan 15 06:06:37 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 19:15:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr." To: Leif Erlingsson cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > > $ wc -l linux-biz > 213 linux-biz > > > We are 213 members on linux-biz ... have we said all there is to say about > linux in a business environment already, or has the discussion moved else- > where? Don't know. But I wonder if this is the fate of "new movements"? It is not easy to sustain a continued interest in doing things. I think the history of debian, linux itself, and the FSF sort of bears this out. It takes a *lot* of work by some dedicated individuals. This is not to say there are not dedicated individuals in linux-biz, but there is *SO MUCH* out here on the net vying for our interest..... It seems to me that a lot of the traffic on linux-biz was "wouldn't it be nice if we had ....." What is the *output* of such a theme? Debian and FSF have a focus -- it is to produce output -- a distribition in the case of debian, and more free gnu software in the case of the FSF. These efforts require the dedicated and directed effort of *many* volunteers. The efforts are usually defined as "projects" that an individual volunteer will "take on". I have not detected this viewpoint from the linux biz traffic. Perhaps, like me, others on the list have been "snagged" by other projects. It would be interesting to see the comments from the 212 about what they expect from the list. When I joined I was hoping to see a linux "distribution" that installed as seamlessly as Windows-95. With a common look-and-feel to all the tools that ran under the linux-biz "distribution". Probably an off-the-wall expectation. Are there 212 more off-the-wall expectations? Best Regards, Joe Hartmann Tel: (603) 863 6073 K2AJV -issued email: joeh@sugar-river.net 1951 home-page: http://www.sugar-river.net/~joeh ------------------------------------------------------------- First Student at the: Linux Academy in the Sunshine Town of Newport, NH Thanks to RMS, Linus, and other contributors of free software! ------------- I grant this to the public domain ------------- > > > -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 > Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 > > > > From popmail Wed Jan 15 06:07:24 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:21:45 -0500 From: Nathan John Grass Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz To: Idan Shoham Cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Status: RO Idan Shoham wrote: > Perhaps there are more people "listening" than "talking"? That'd be me :) I do enjoy the fact that there is not *much* spam like mail on this list (the sort like this that just fills up my inbox). That is one reason I have kept my subscription to the list. For those who have posted valuable notes, thanks, and also to those who have refrained from idle chat / spam notes... Nate... From popmail Wed Jan 15 08:25:48 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:09:43 -0800 From: Rob Walker To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: kinda techie question... Status: RO Pretty much a security question here.... I have a question in regards to a customers' needs. They have an 'application' which they connect to via dial up. They are trying to begin these transactions via the 'Net. As it is now, their firewall allows connections from _any_ host on the 'Net to the 'application server' (an IBM ??? running a CICS application), using tn3270 emulation. However, security through obscurity is not their idea of a good time. Also, as their application concerns flow-of-monies, they do not like the idea of unencrypted traffic. Their users will be dialing up the users' own ISP, and then making a tn3270 connection to the application server. The other fly in the ointment is that they have this IBM machine running VMS??? or NT boxen all over the place. I am sure you can imagine my response to this all. On the outside of the firewall, put a linux box, running sshd, have all the users make ssh connections (with their wind-blows boxes) to the linux machine, and have the linux machine automagically make the connection for the user to the tn3270 app-server. The other bonus to this is that the firewall only has to allow connections from the outside network to the inside network from one host to another. That is my solution, but I am not sure how to implement it. My first guess would be to make sure nothing is in /etc/services except sshd (I am assuming it is there...), but I am not smart enough to know what *must* be left on and what can be nuked, to be as secure as possible. tia, Rob From popmail Wed Jan 15 08:25:48 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:29:09 +1100 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: "exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green)" cc: Linux Business Discussion Group Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green) wrote: > Question: Anybody here do networking? Yup - me for one. > I have a client who wants fiber links between buildings on a campus, all > hooked up in a star configuration from the central (administration) > building. I plan on using an existing Linux box as a router to divide the > network up. The problem: once we get to the building, I have to go from > fiber down to 10base-T or 10base-2. (The purpose of the fiber, by the way, > isn't speed -- it's because this fellow's had to replace thousands of > dollars of equipment due to poor electrical grounding of his campus, and > is tired of it). You don't say exactly what sort of fibre system you are going to use - straight FDDI (100Mb/s), ethernet by fibre (10Mb/s), 100Tx or 100Tf. Depending on the budget and need (traffic) I would look at 100Tf (full duplex fast ethernet by fibre (which requires two fibre pairs per run) but provides a theoretical 200Mb/s throughput. Care to give a bit more info? Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 http://www.interweft.com.au/ InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Wed Jan 15 23:02:18 1997 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:44:52 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business Subject: Linux Journal Buyer's Guide MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO The Linux Journal is publishing its 1997 Buyer's Guide in February. This promises to be a really good source of Linux vendors and businesspeople. The catch is that they want you to be a subscriber by January 25 to get the free guide. I don't know if it is also for sale. Dwight Johnson From popmail Wed Jan 15 23:02:42 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 09:19:30 +0200 (SAT) From: Dr Evan Summers To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO > We are 213 members on linux-biz ... have we said all there is to say about > linux in a business environment already, or has the discussion moved else- > where? Well, I'm a newbie, and haven't said anything yet, so I'll throw in my two pennies, all the way from South Africa. I know of one major corporate success story (apart from 100's of little ones in the Internet industry). There's a major clothing retailing chain in South Africa whose *entire* central processing, warehouse, and each of their 150 stores (well, down here, that's what we call a major chain), including all point-of-sales, are running Linux. (Each store uses overnight UUCP to transfer data to central.) Rolling out 500 Linux PC's in one hit was an interesting challenge for the supplier's system engineer, Dr Alex Harin (alex@.ucs.co.za), but took only a few weeks all told. The client was very happy to save on 500 SCO licenses, and has been even happier to see that Linux works like a dream, better than SCO. How they the supplier was able to offer Linux instead of SCO though, was because they have their own 4GL system (which uses C-Tree for the databases). So they just recompiled the 4GL runtime under Linux -- simple as that! Regards Evan ---------------------------------------------------------------|-----|-- Evan Summers, PhD Tel +27 82 900-8632 Symphony /|\ /|\ Internet systems integration http://sr.co.za Research { } { } Johannesburg, South Africa mailto:evan@sr.co.za (Pty)Ltd {___} {___} Importers and distributors * Cyclades Corp * Emerging Technologies, Inc Suppliers of * Pentium Internet routers and servers * Microcom modems From popmail Wed Jan 15 23:03:25 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:37:40 -0700 (MST) From: Idan Shoham To: Rob Walker cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: kinda techie question... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Rob, I suggest you setup a Debian box, as that distribution seems to come fairly clean. If you're not too familiar with this, hire someone to configure it for you -- I have someone in town that does Linux box configs for $100CDN, which is cheaper than my time... Be sure to install a kernel with IP firewalling installed... After that, you should disable things in /etc/inetd.conf, rather than in /etc/services. You should remove ftp, telnet, finger, mail, news, tftp, etc. Basically, log in, STAY logged in, remove anything you don't _know_ you need, and see if the machine acts weird. (don't forget to killall -1 inetd to reload /etc/inetd.conf). Next, setup IP firealling, to deny everything, and let in just ssh connections. Put in accounts for every user, and setup "tn3270 hostname" as their login shell. On your firewall box, as you suggested earlier, you should only allow telnet connections from the Linux box. If possible, you should also put in some sort of filtering to ensure that socket connections that claim to come from the Linux box's IP address are also from that box's MAC address. Your ability to do this will depend on the intelligence of the firewall you have installed. Please remember that if your PC users are to connect to sshd, then they will need a PC/Windoze implementation of ssh, which I believe is commercial software. Your next step is selling the solution. DON'T sell them on the idea of "Linux is so great because..." Instead, tell them that they need a reliable, maintenance-free, secure box outside their firewall that carries out the function described above. Sell them on the solution, not the operating system. When you convince them that this is the secure / economical / feasible way to do things, _then_ say that you can do it with a PC Unix flavour called Linux, and back up the support / reliability / open architecture / etc. of Linux if necessary. Good luck! If you need more help, give me a ring at (403) 233-0740 -- we do this sort of thing for a living. ;-) Regards, -- Idan Shoham, M-Tech idan@m-tech.ab.ca http://www.m-tech.ab.ca On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Rob Walker wrote: > > Pretty much a security question here.... > > I have a question in regards to a customers' needs. They have an > 'application' which they connect to via dial up. They are trying to > begin these transactions via the 'Net. > > As it is now, their firewall allows connections from _any_ host on the > 'Net to the 'application server' (an IBM ??? running a CICS > application), using tn3270 emulation. However, security through > obscurity is not their idea of a good time. > > Also, as their application concerns flow-of-monies, they do not like > the idea of unencrypted traffic. Their users will be dialing up the > users' own ISP, and then making a tn3270 connection to the application > server. > > The other fly in the ointment is that they have this IBM machine > running VMS??? or NT boxen all over the place. > > > I am sure you can imagine my response to this all. On the outside of > the firewall, put a linux box, running sshd, have all the users make > ssh connections (with their wind-blows boxes) to the linux machine, > and have the linux machine automagically make the connection for the > user to the tn3270 app-server. The other bonus to this is that the > firewall only has to allow connections from the outside network to the > inside network from one host to another. > > That is my solution, but I am not sure how to implement it. My first > guess would be to make sure nothing is in /etc/services except sshd (I > am assuming it is there...), but I am not smart enough to know what > *must* be left on and what can be nuked, to be as secure as possible. > > tia, > Rob > From popmail Wed Jan 15 23:03:36 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:00:31 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: kinda techie question... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Rob Walker wrote: > That is my solution, but I am not sure how to implement it. My first > guess would be to make sure nothing is in /etc/services except sshd (I > am assuming it is there...), but I am not smart enough to know what > *must* be left on and what can be nuked, to be as secure as possible. Good thing you asked because changing /etc/services is irrelevant. It is /etc/inetd.conf and the /etc/rc* files that need changing. Also /etc/inittab. Since you are running sshd you can disable telnetd and rlogind as well. Some people will even disable getty's on the console so that the only way to log in is sshd via the network. Take the time to remove all unneeded binaries as well such as ftpd, etc. But number 1, make sure you review all the Linux security material you can find on the web. Building a firewall can be tricky and hackers who want to get in are very smart. Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com From popmail Wed Jan 15 23:06:38 1997 From: "Cary B. O'Brien" Subject: Re: kinda techie question... To: rob@cisco.com Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:07:48 -0500 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO > > Pretty much a security question here.... > > I have a question in regards to a customers' needs. They have an > 'application' which they connect to via dial up. They are trying to > begin these transactions via the 'Net. > > As it is now, their firewall allows connections from _any_ host on the > 'Net to the 'application server' (an IBM ??? running a CICS > application), using tn3270 emulation. However, security through > obscurity is not their idea of a good time. > > Also, as their application concerns flow-of-monies, they do not like > the idea of unencrypted traffic. Their users will be dialing up the > users' own ISP, and then making a tn3270 connection to the application > server. > > The other fly in the ointment is that they have this IBM machine > running VMS??? or NT boxen all over the place. > > > I am sure you can imagine my response to this all. On the outside of > the firewall, put a linux box, running sshd, have all the users make > ssh connections (with their wind-blows boxes) to the linux machine, > and have the linux machine automagically make the connection for the > user to the tn3270 app-server. The other bonus to this is that the > firewall only has to allow connections from the outside network to the > inside network from one host to another. > That would be my approach also. Although the s/wan stuff bears investigation. Turn off IP forwarding on the linux box. You can get it to start tn3270 automatically by making this the login shell for the users. Check tn3270 for shell escapes and file transfer options -- ("Use the source, luke"). Turn them all off. > That is my solution, but I am not sure how to implement it. My first > guess would be to make sure nothing is in /etc/services except sshd (I You need to check /etc/inetd.conf , and if you have tcp wrappers (tcpd) the config file for that one also. > am assuming it is there...), but I am not smart enough to know what > *must* be left on and what can be nuked, to be as secure as possible. > As my brand-new x-files coffee cup says "The Truth is Out There" and "Trust No One" (when hot). Turn off everything except what you need. There should be more information in a security HOWTO, or the firewalls book. The SSH people could probably help, since you will have to buy it for commercial use. Good Luck, Sounds like a fun project. -- cary cobrien@access.digex.net From popmail Wed Jan 15 23:06:59 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:46:28 -0500 From: Ram kalapatapu To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Sybase clients on linux Status: RO Hi all, I don't know how many of you know about this but linux is now a viable platform as a sybase client with the release of ELF version of ct-lib. During the past three weeks there have been two more ct-lib based sql clients for linux viz. ctsql and sqsh for linux. Here is the picture: 1. a.out version of ct-lib and a minimal featured sample client xisql is available from the sybase site http://www.sybase.com/Offerings/Samples/Linux 2. The ELF version of ct-lib is available from ftp://mudshark.sunquest.com:/pub/ctlib-linux-elf xisql compiles with this ELF version as well. 3. ctsql is available in source and binary form from ftp://mudshark.sunquest.com:/pub/ctsql The credit for ctsql and ELF ct-lib should go to Steve Etchelecu (se@linus.sunquest.com) 4. Beta versions of sqsh based on ct-lib is available from http://www.voicenet.com/~gray/sqsh.html ctsql and sqsh work with (x)emacs sql-mode. 5. Sybernet, a web client for sybase. Details at http://linux.sri.com 6. SybPerl for perl5 should work with the ct-lib. Try any of CPAN sites. 7. There are two JDBC sybase drivers that work with linux java including Sybase jdbcCONNECT. The above material should be sufficient to build "enterprise strength" datalinked applications in linux. Also if you want to use your SQL server efficiently you might also consider TIBCO (www.tibco.com)'s rv which has been ported to linux! Now, will someone knock some sense into those execs at sybase to come out with a port of their SQL server for linux? When will these fools realize that linux is a better bet to challenge NT than any other UNIX? Regards, Ram From popmail Wed Jan 15 23:09:16 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:04:02 -0800 (PST) From: Allen Francom To: exec@prysm.net cc: linux-biz@lege.com, Leif Erlingsson Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green) wrote: > Question: Anybody here do networking? > > I have a client who wants fiber links between buildings on a campus, all > hooked up in a star configuration from the central (administration) > building. I plan on using an existing Linux box as a router to divide the > network up. The problem: once we get to the building, I have to go from > fiber down to 10base-T or 10base-2. (The purpose of the fiber, by the way, > isn't speed -- it's because this fellow's had to replace thousands of > dollars of equipment due to poor electrical grounding of his campus, and > is tired of it). I've not used Linux as a router, rather things like LattisNet and AT&T ISN... This is interesting. How exactly do you envision plugging linux into things ? Also, there is "single-mode" fiber which is a good thing. I don't know if it costs a lot more, but it might give you much more flexibility in the long run. THX -AEF From popmail Wed Jan 15 23:09:33 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:53:56 GMT From: Paul Cummings To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: How to become a Linux 'Solution Provider' Status: RO What do you all think is the requirements are for someone, like myself, to begin offering Linux as a product in my area. To add context about myself: I live in Scotland, and have used Linux since August 96 after a brief attempt at using it two years earlier. I have no real business experience, but have a Higher National Diploma in I.T. What would be any stumbling blocks for someone like myself? -- =============== ============================================== Paul Cummings "That's an awful lot of ships." --Ivanova paulc@sol.co.uk "That's a bloody awful lot of ships!" --Marcus =Linux=v2.0.27= ============================================== From popmail Thu Jan 16 00:01:39 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 04:35:54 -0800 (PST) From: Allen Francom To: Paul Cummings cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: How to become a Linux 'Solution Provider' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Is there a "Linux Solution Provider" certificate or something ? Right now, I find a need and then a customer, or a customer and then a need, get requirements, get constraints, rough proposal, revise, final proposal, agree to terms, do work, meet requirements within constraints, get paid. ( Some details trimmed to save space ) I do this without any certification whatsoever, with DOS, Windows, NT, Netware, and Linux. ( I happen to be technically competent which helps more than any certificate ) Quite often I work relationships for maintenance with "certified" business near the customer, and this is sometimes required if certain kinds of cabling or a contractor's license are needed to be legal. Do you have any certification other than Linux ? I'm not saying it doesn't help, just that for me at least, it isn't necessary. Business is business. Work a deal, or two. That's what counts. I've never been able to do it, but it looks like fun... Sell a solution and have someone else do the work ! Selling is the crux of working, not technical skill or certification. How do you plan to market your solutions ? Or service and maintain all the customers ? Keep them happy ? Get new customers ? Hanging out with technical folk is great, but when it comes to striking out on your own business... That's something for business people. So this is hopefully a good list for this exact topic, and I hope that I've contributed something so far and that there is more to come... If all you want to do is sell copies of Linux, maybe pre-installed on PC's, then I'm sure RedHat, Slackware, and others would be happy to sell to you at wholesale or bulk rates. You might consider gathering together books to offer along with Linux CD's, Internet access (Become your own ISP), etc., Requirements ? Just do it ! THX -AEF On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Paul Cummings wrote: > What do you all think is the requirements are for someone, like > myself, to begin offering Linux as a product in my area. > > To add context about myself: > > I live in Scotland, and have used Linux since August 96 after a brief > attempt at using it two years earlier. I have no real business > experience, but have a Higher National Diploma in I.T. > > What would be any stumbling blocks for someone like myself? > > -- > =============== ============================================== > Paul Cummings "That's an awful lot of ships." --Ivanova > paulc@sol.co.uk "That's a bloody awful lot of ships!" --Marcus > =Linux=v2.0.27= ============================================== > From popmail Thu Jan 16 09:21:38 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:01:04 +1100 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: exec@prysm.net cc: Linux Business Discussion Group Subject: Re: Fiber Network (was Re: $ wc -l linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green) wrote: > > You don't say exactly what sort of fibre system you are going to use - > > straight FDDI (100Mb/s), ethernet by fibre (10Mb/s), 100Tx or 100Tf. > > Well: This is for a secondary school. I am donating my labor, and we are > going to use the existing linux box as the center of the star. Fair enough. One thing you may be able to pick up is some old chipcom fibre gear. my old site used this before I tossed it and replaced the system with Bay Networks 28200 fast/switched 100Tf equipment. The centre of our fibre star was capable of handling 6 fibre links and it worked just fine. At the end of each run from the star we used fibre to AUI converters to link into ethernet hubs. The only thing to watch with this gear is that it uses an old encoding scheme that is not the same as that in use today - so you need to carefully check that the fibre to AUI converters are compatible with the Chipcom star gear. When laying the fibre, I strongly urge you to use 6 core (3 pair) cable - I realise that you will need only 1 pair for each run, but having hte spare cables is really useful come upgrade time - you will need 2 pairs if they want to upgrade to a ring and you may need a spare if a core 'goes off'... Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 http://www.interweft.com.au/ InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Thu Jan 16 09:21:58 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:49:10 +0000 (GMT) From: "exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green)" To: Robert Hart cc: Linux Business Discussion Group Subject: Fiber Network (was Re: $ wc -l linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Robert Hart wrote: > On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green) wrote: > > I have a client who wants fiber links between buildings on a campus, all > > hooked up in a star configuration from the central (administration) > > building. I plan on using an existing Linux box as a router to divide the > > network up. The problem: once we get to the building, I have to go from > > fiber down to 10base-T or 10base-2. (The purpose of the fiber, by the way, > > isn't speed -- it's because this fellow's had to replace thousands of > > dollars of equipment due to poor electrical grounding of his campus, and > > is tired of it). > > You don't say exactly what sort of fibre system you are going to use - > straight FDDI (100Mb/s), ethernet by fibre (10Mb/s), 100Tx or 100Tf. Well: This is for a secondary school. I am donating my labor, and we are going to use the existing linux box as the center of the star. Due to cost, it will have to be ethernet by fiber (10Mb/s). As mentioned, the reason for the fiber is because the buildings are very poorly electrically grounded and equipment keeps frying at the ends of the between-building runs. I suggested to them that they might want to invest in lots of double-ought copper wire and grounding rods (:-)), but ... I have found a number of products by Allied Telesyn that look like they'll fit the bill. But I want to make sure that that I'm on the right track... -- eric lee green exec@prysm.net From popmail Thu Jan 16 09:22:29 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:56:12 +0000 (GMT) From: "exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green)" To: Allen Francom cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Allen Francom wrote: > I've not used Linux as a router, rather things like LattisNet and AT&T > ISN... > > This is interesting. > > How exactly do you envision plugging linux into things ? 1) Put a bunch of Ethernet cards into the Linux box 2) Turn on IP-forwarding in the kernel 3) Let'er rip. (After setting up the routing tables, of course). Each Ethernet card would be connected to a fiber transciever (10baseF), with the fiber link going out to the other building. Could do it with copper, but, as mentioned, grounding problems (not to mention length of the runs) interferes. > Also, there is "single-mode" fiber which is a good thing. I don't know > if it costs a lot more, but it might give you much more flexibility > in the long run. In the long run... I suspect that they'll end up with a server in each of the buildings. The Linux box in the centre building would thus only need to route the occasional cross-building traffic (mostly EMAIL). -- Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:23:57 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 11:55:49 -0800 (PST) From: Allen Francom To: David Bonn cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: About the "Linux Market" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Hmn. In spite of all the "Nobody useses it, and nobody will use it" verbage about Linux, how come I have it, use it, develop for it, and make money at it ? And how can Linux even exist in the first place if it costs $50 million to "roll out" a new OS ? How many hundreds of thousands of Linux machines out there ? Hmn. Maybe a lot of it has to do with the nature of this guy's product and his current market ? ( For example, I have Win95 on my desktop and I would probably not buy a networking product unless I could administer it along with everything else from win95... That's why I Telnet to Linux :) He does have some good points, but I think it is a bit extreme. I see Linux surviving for quite some time, not only because of "us monks", but also because I know so many kids comming out of high-school that are doing things like running thier own BBS and MUD businesses with Linux. In not necessarily "sharp" contrast to the keynote address, I see a tenacity in Linux similar to that of Amway, Mary Kay, and, yes, the Avon Lady. I'm not sure exactly in what way Linux and these other ventures are similar, but somehow it fits. Maybe the proclaimed ideals, or something. There is a place for everything... and a season... THX -AEF From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:23:59 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 10:16:46 -0800 (PST) From: Allen Francom To: exec@prysm.net cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green) wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Allen Francom wrote: > > I've not used Linux as a router, rather things like LattisNet and AT&T > > ISN... > > > > This is interesting. > > > > How exactly do you envision plugging linux into things ? > > 1) Put a bunch of Ethernet cards into the Linux box > 2) Turn on IP-forwarding in the kernel > 3) Let'er rip. (After setting up the routing tables, of course). > > Each Ethernet card would be connected to a fiber transciever (10baseF), > with the fiber link going out to the other building. > > Could do it with copper, but, as mentioned, grounding problems (not to > mention length of the runs) interferes. > > > Also, there is "single-mode" fiber which is a good thing. I don't know > > if it costs a lot more, but it might give you much more flexibility > > in the long run. > > In the long run... I suspect that they'll end up with a server in each of > the buildings. The Linux box in the centre building would thus only need > to route the occasional cross-building traffic (mostly EMAIL). > Okay. That will work dandy. (I haven't done it with Linux and Fiber cards, but the basic idea is cool.) At one point I was "Interim Director of Data Processing" for Clackamas Community College. What you've described so far is similar to problems I've bumped into before. Humbly suggesting: Take a look at existing PBX service to the campus, and Audio/Video department and their existing infrastructure and future requirements. My thoughts on single-mode fiber go like this: Single-mode is, I believe, what is used in SONET rings by telephone companies and has a very high bandwidth. Such fiber could run many services at once, phone, audio video, and networking. Basically, you might be able to kill several birds with one stone, so to speak. If your computer network could use help building to building, then probably your telephone equipment and audio video stuff could do with an upgrade at the same time. Potential source of FUNding ! Here's a terrible idea, but if you don't want to go to the effort of running the fiber, and you really are going to have low-bandwidth requirements, how about dialup or PPP through your PBX, serial-wise ? THX -AEF From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:25:03 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:55:41 -0800 From: David Bonn To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: About the "Linux Market" Status: RO This diatribe^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^hmessage kind of summarizes some brooding observations about the opportunities for commercial software on Linux. While I think Linux is great, I'm not that optimistic. It has a lot more to do with economics than anything else. Some background is probably important. My company, Seattle Software Labs, sells an internet firewall based on a Linux core, with client software (configuration and reports) available under Linux, Windows 95, or Windows NT. Since we made the Windows clients available, nearly all of our customers have used the Windows client. What is more disturbing to me is that nearly all of the old customers who used the Linux client are now using the Windows clients. This `conversion' is in spite of the fact that the Windows clients are slower, less stable, and less visually appealing than the Linux clients. In fact, since we use the Linux clients in-house, there is more time on them and they are less likely to be bug-free. (Technical note -- all of our clients our writting using Tk and Tix, so identical functionality is available under Linux and Windows). I find this profoundly disturbing. To my mind it implies some unpleasant truths about how people deal with software. It is hard to figure out how Linux can be generally successful in this kind of environment. My guess is that the reasons have a lot more to do with cultural issues than with technical ones. If the issues are cultural, then technical solutions (Windows emulators, more cool applications, better interoperability) won't substantially help Linux's market penetration. Lots of very good work is being done on and with Linux, but there are essential pieces missing. The media is going to view Linux as a sideshow at best, and a cult at worst, until somebody makes some serious money with it, the criteria for being a big deal in the computer industry is to be a billion-dollar deal. Big results will get people's attention -- nothing else will. It costs $20 million to $50 million US to fully capitalize and promote a desktop software product these days. Promotion and marketing costs far outstrip development costs. It is hard to justify betting this much money on Linux, especially when the Windows market is at least twenty times as large. Promotion costs don't go down substantially for smaller markets, which makes the per-unit costs higher just because the market is smaller. Unconventional marketing techniques (e.g. the Internet) can be much less expensive, but results have been mixed and Internet promotion costs are rapidly increasing. If you have both a Linux and a Windows products, no one will switch from Windows to Linux to run your products. I have compelling evidence to support this. Like I said, I like Linux a lot. There are a lot of people in the press and analyst community who think Linux is a great thing. Unfortunately, the market momentum is not on our side right now. We need to figure out how to pull a rabbit out of the hat if things are going to turn around. "The Linux community is kind of like the ancient monks, keeping the traditions alive for a new renaissance." -- James Gosling, Usenix keynote speech "I don't feel like a monk." -- David Bonn, Usenix attendee From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:25:09 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:19:48 -0500 (EST) From: "Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr." To: David Bonn cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: About the "Linux Market" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Your post should be required reading for anyone who has hopes for a linux used by large numbers of individuals (relative to the windows market). Thank you for your thoughts. Best Regards, Joe Hartmann Tel: (603) 863 6073 K2AJV -issued email: joeh@sugar-river.net 1951 home-page: http://www.sugar-river.net/~joeh ------------------------------------------------------------- First Student at the: Linux Academy in the Sunshine Town of Newport, NH Thanks to RMS, Linus, and other contributors of free software! ------------- I grant this to the public domain ------------- On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, David Bonn wrote: > > This diatribe^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^hmessage kind of summarizes some brooding > observations about the opportunities for commercial software on Linux. > While I think Linux is great, I'm not that optimistic. It has a lot > more to do with economics than anything else. > > Some background is probably important. My company, Seattle Software > Labs, sells an internet firewall based on a Linux core, with client > software (configuration and reports) available under Linux, Windows > 95, or Windows NT. Since we made the Windows clients available, nearly > all of our customers have used the Windows client. What is more > disturbing to me is that nearly all of the old customers who used the > Linux client are now using the Windows clients. > > This `conversion' is in spite of the fact that the Windows clients are > slower, less stable, and less visually appealing than the Linux > clients. In fact, since we use the Linux clients in-house, there is > more time on them and they are less likely to be bug-free. (Technical > note -- all of our clients our writting using Tk and Tix, so identical > functionality is available under Linux and Windows). > > I find this profoundly disturbing. To my mind it implies some > unpleasant truths about how people deal with software. It is hard to > figure out how Linux can be generally successful in this kind of > environment. My guess is that the reasons have a lot more to do with > cultural issues than with technical ones. > > If the issues are cultural, then technical solutions (Windows > emulators, more cool applications, better interoperability) won't > substantially help Linux's market penetration. Lots of very good work > is being done on and with Linux, but there are essential pieces > missing. > > The media is going to view Linux as a sideshow at best, and a cult at > worst, until somebody makes some serious money with it, the criteria > for being a big deal in the computer industry is to be a billion-dollar > deal. Big results will get people's attention -- nothing else will. > > It costs $20 million to $50 million US to fully capitalize and promote > a desktop software product these days. Promotion and marketing costs > far outstrip development costs. It is hard to justify betting this > much money on Linux, especially when the Windows market is at least > twenty times as large. Promotion costs don't go down substantially > for smaller markets, which makes the per-unit costs higher just > because the market is smaller. Unconventional marketing techniques > (e.g. the Internet) can be much less expensive, but results have been > mixed and Internet promotion costs are rapidly increasing. > > If you have both a Linux and a Windows products, no one will switch > from Windows to Linux to run your products. I have compelling > evidence to support this. > > Like I said, I like Linux a lot. There are a lot of people in the > press and analyst community who think Linux is a great thing. > Unfortunately, the market momentum is not on our side right now. We > need to figure out how to pull a rabbit out of the hat if things are > going to turn around. > > "The Linux community is kind of like the ancient monks, keeping the > traditions alive for a new renaissance." > > -- James Gosling, Usenix keynote speech > > "I don't feel like a monk." > > -- David Bonn, Usenix attendee > From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:26:26 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:26:02 -0800 (PST) From: Keith Dart To: David Bonn cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: About the "Linux Market" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, David Bonn wrote: > This diatribe^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^hmessage kind of summarizes some brooding > observations about the opportunities for commercial software on Linux. > [stuff deleted] > I find this profoundly disturbing. To my mind it implies some > unpleasant truths about how people deal with software. It is hard to > figure out how Linux can be generally successful in this kind of > environment. My guess is that the reasons have a lot more to do with > cultural issues than with technical ones. I think this has more to do with convenience than anything else. If they already running Windows on the desktop, that's what they'll use. > If the issues are cultural, then technical solutions (Windows > emulators, more cool applications, better interoperability) won't > substantially help Linux's market penetration. Lots of very good work > is being done on and with Linux, but there are essential pieces > missing. > > The media is going to view Linux as a sideshow at best, and a cult at > worst, until somebody makes some serious money with it, the criteria > for being a big deal in the computer industry is to be a billion-dollar > deal. Big results will get people's attention -- nothing else will. I think it will be a slow process, but Linux will grow. Many (how many?) young high-school and college kids already use it, and will undoubtedly continue to use it later in life. After all, after using a rock-solid OS so long, how could anyone move to Windoze? > It costs $20 million to $50 million US to fully capitalize and promote > a desktop software product these days. Promotion and marketing costs > far outstrip development costs. It is hard to justify betting this > much money on Linux, especially when the Windows market is at least > twenty times as large. Promotion costs don't go down substantially > for smaller markets, which makes the per-unit costs higher just > because the market is smaller. Unconventional marketing techniques > (e.g. the Internet) can be much less expensive, but results have been > mixed and Internet promotion costs are rapidly increasing. Linux is definitly a "grass-roots" effort. Novell Netware didn't happen overnight, either. It was brought into business at a departmental or group level by people looking for a better way to use their PC's. (Never mind the present bungling at Novell). The PC world hasn't been the same since. I agree it's hard to compete against the 300 pound gorilla, but there will always be a market with those who know better. 8-) > If you have both a Linux and a Windows products, no one will switch > from Windows to Linux to run your products. I have compelling > evidence to support this. I would, and did. However, I agree we need more apps. > Like I said, I like Linux a lot. There are a lot of people in the > press and analyst community who think Linux is a great thing. > Unfortunately, the market momentum is not on our side right now. We > need to figure out how to pull a rabbit out of the hat if things are > going to turn around. Well, Linux use has grown quite a bit recently, in spite of all the obstacles you mention. I've even seen it at CompUSA! I think it will happen, but it may take a while. my $0.02. ============================================================================ Keith Dart, Network Systems Engineer email: kdart@ins.com International Network Services Current client: kdart@cisco.com Cisco Systems, Access Business Unit pager: +1.800.467.1467 Access DevTest/Solution Testing phone: +1.408.527.1391 fax: +1.408.527.3778 =--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Linux: the choice of a GNU generation. ============================================================================ From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:26:43 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 10:41:00 +0200 (SAT) From: Dr Evan Summers To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: About the "Linux Market" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, David Bonn wrote: > Unfortunately, the market momentum is not on our side right now. We > need to figure out how to pull a rabbit out of the hat if things are > going to turn around. I think that Linux has a huge future in desktop computing for the enterprisee on the one hand, and also home computing on the other, for the PC gamer. I see this GGI project, and other related projects like Berlin, as being tremendously exciting, and hugely relevant to the above comment. With GGI, Linux will be the best PC gaming platform available. Although being technically the best doesn't guarantee popularity, I have a gut feeling, Linux will become the preferred OS for serious gaming. We all know that Linux is the best platform for networking, and is doing very well here, particularly in the Internet industry. But my interest is on the commercial side, in particular "Enterprise Computing." I see Linux as having an incredibly bright future in this arena. On the server side, I see Linux clusters and distributed servers, and on the client side I see thin network computers which are in fact diskless PC's running Linux, and using GGI/Berlin, and even a Java AWT implementation for this GUI. Of course there's lots of work still to be done, and lots of time needed to convince major vendors to port/release their products under Linux, but the ball is starting to roll... But you're right, Microsoft it seems has showed that it's all about marketing, and not about technical superiority. Nonetheless in the Enterprise Computing field, it's all about solution providers, and not marketing. And more and more, we'll be seeing solution providers adopting Linux, because of its technical superiority. I have a dream TODAY! Regards Evan ---------------------------------------------------------------|-----|-- Evan Summers, PhD Tel +27 82 900-8632 Symphony /|\ /|\ Internet systems integration http://sr.co.za Research { } { } Johannesburg, South Africa mailto:evan@sr.co.za (Pty)Ltd {___} {___} From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:26:44 1997 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:17:26 -0700 (MST) From: Idan Shoham To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: About the "Linux Market" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Hmmm. I wonder what the objective is? Do we really want Linux to become the dominant desktop platform? I don't see any reason why Linux will shrivel or otherwise diminish in the foreseeable future. I think that the mechanics of free software and the Internet, combined with the technical strength of Linux and GNU software, and the relative technical weakness of M$ software mean that many people like the subscribers of this list will continue to use and develop it. The basic idea is that 5% of the productivity of 10,000 developers is a lot of output -- maybe as much as that of 100% of 500 full-time developers. Because of this, I think that development of Linux will continue to be very strong. So, if Linux continues to develop rapidly, and continues to be a useful, robust and economical platform for those of us who recognize it for what it is, does it really matter if the majority of users see what we do? In a competitive situation, I would think that there is some motivation to ensure that, beyond a critical mass of "respectability," it's not in our interest for EVERYONE to understand and support Linux. For instance, if you can sell a Linux-based, robust, easy to administer, high-performance firewall system for $2000, and the nearest competitor must cope with the vagaries of NT, or the expensive hardware of Solaris, then you have a distinct cost advantage.... What do you think? -- Idan Shoham, M-Tech idan@m-tech.ab.ca http://www.m-tech.ab.ca On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, David Bonn wrote: > > This diatribe^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^hmessage kind of summarizes some brooding > observations about the opportunities for commercial software on Linux. > While I think Linux is great, I'm not that optimistic. It has a lot > more to do with economics than anything else. > > Some background is probably important. My company, Seattle Software > Labs, sells an internet firewall based on a Linux core, with client > software (configuration and reports) available under Linux, Windows > 95, or Windows NT. Since we made the Windows clients available, nearly > all of our customers have used the Windows client. What is more > disturbing to me is that nearly all of the old customers who used the > Linux client are now using the Windows clients. > > This `conversion' is in spite of the fact that the Windows clients are > slower, less stable, and less visually appealing than the Linux > clients. In fact, since we use the Linux clients in-house, there is > more time on them and they are less likely to be bug-free. (Technical > note -- all of our clients our writting using Tk and Tix, so identical > functionality is available under Linux and Windows). > > I find this profoundly disturbing. To my mind it implies some > unpleasant truths about how people deal with software. It is hard to > figure out how Linux can be generally successful in this kind of > environment. My guess is that the reasons have a lot more to do with > cultural issues than with technical ones. > > If the issues are cultural, then technical solutions (Windows > emulators, more cool applications, better interoperability) won't > substantially help Linux's market penetration. Lots of very good work > is being done on and with Linux, but there are essential pieces > missing. > > The media is going to view Linux as a sideshow at best, and a cult at > worst, until somebody makes some serious money with it, the criteria > for being a big deal in the computer industry is to be a billion-dollar > deal. Big results will get people's attention -- nothing else will. > > It costs $20 million to $50 million US to fully capitalize and promote > a desktop software product these days. Promotion and marketing costs > far outstrip development costs. It is hard to justify betting this > much money on Linux, especially when the Windows market is at least > twenty times as large. Promotion costs don't go down substantially > for smaller markets, which makes the per-unit costs higher just > because the market is smaller. Unconventional marketing techniques > (e.g. the Internet) can be much less expensive, but results have been > mixed and Internet promotion costs are rapidly increasing. > > If you have both a Linux and a Windows products, no one will switch > from Windows to Linux to run your products. I have compelling > evidence to support this. > > Like I said, I like Linux a lot. There are a lot of people in the > press and analyst community who think Linux is a great thing. > Unfortunately, the market momentum is not on our side right now. We > need to figure out how to pull a rabbit out of the hat if things are > going to turn around. > > "The Linux community is kind of like the ancient monks, keeping the > traditions alive for a new renaissance." > > -- James Gosling, Usenix keynote speech > > "I don't feel like a monk." > > -- David Bonn, Usenix attendee > From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:27:26 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:41:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Sheldon E. Newhouse" To: David Bonn cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: About the "Linux Market" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, David Bonn wrote: > Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:55:41 -0800 > From: David Bonn > To: linux-biz@lege.com > Subject: About the "Linux Market" > > > This diatribe^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^hmessage kind of summarizes some brooding > observations about the opportunities for commercial software on Linux. > While I think Linux is great, I'm not that optimistic. It has a lot > more to do with economics than anything else. > > Some background is probably important. My company, Seattle Software > Labs, sells an internet firewall based on a Linux core, with client > software (configuration and reports) available under Linux, Windows > 95, or Windows NT. Since we made the Windows clients available, nearly > all of our customers have used the Windows client. What is more > disturbing to me is that nearly all of the old customers who used the > Linux client are now using the Windows clients. > > This `conversion' is in spite of the fact that the Windows clients are > slower, less stable, and less visually appealing than the Linux > clients. In fact, since we use the Linux clients in-house, there is > more time on them and they are less likely to be bug-free. (Technical > note -- all of our clients our writting using Tk and Tix, so identical > functionality is available under Linux and Windows). > > I find this profoundly disturbing. To my mind it implies some > unpleasant truths about how people deal with software. It is hard to > figure out how Linux can be generally successful in this kind of > environment. My guess is that the reasons have a lot more to do with > cultural issues than with technical ones. > > If the issues are cultural, then technical solutions (Windows > emulators, more cool applications, better interoperability) won't > substantially help Linux's market penetration. Lots of very good work > is being done on and with Linux, but there are essential pieces > missing. > The media is going to view Linux as a sideshow at best, and a cult at > worst, until somebody makes some serious money with it, the criteria > for being a big deal in the computer industry is to be a billion-dollar > deal. Big results will get people's attention -- nothing else will. > > It costs $20 million to $50 million US to fully capitalize and promote > a desktop software product these days. Promotion and marketing costs > far outstrip development costs. It is hard to justify betting this > much money on Linux, especially when the Windows market is at least > twenty times as large. Promotion costs don't go down substantially > for smaller markets, which makes the per-unit costs higher just > because the market is smaller. Unconventional marketing techniques > (e.g. the Internet) can be much less expensive, but results have been > mixed and Internet promotion costs are rapidly increasing. > > If you have both a Linux and a Windows products, no one will switch > from Windows to Linux to run your products. I have compelling > evidence to support this. > > Like I said, I like Linux a lot. There are a lot of people in the > press and analyst community who think Linux is a great thing. > Unfortunately, the market momentum is not on our side right now. We > need to figure out how to pull a rabbit out of the hat if things are > going to turn around. > > "The Linux community is kind of like the ancient monks, keeping the > traditions alive for a new renaissance." I won't try to respond to this point-by-point. While I disagree with many statements in this message. It does bring up some important issues. In my opinion, there are several reasons why, given a choice at the present time, many more people will choose to use Windows products. Obviously some of these reasons are the following. 1. They are used to it and it gets their work done. 2. On an applications level (word processing, database, spreadsheet), one can expect to easily get support for installation and user techniques. 3. Any hardware produced for Intel boxes will come shipped with drivers for Windows. One can't expect Linux to fill these needs/desires at the present time. It is just too young and immature. Anyone who remembers the DOS/Windows situation of just 10 or 12 years ago will remember much worse support and usability than one would tolerate now. But, it was more or less the only game in town. And most of that game was Lotus. There was no excel. Word was just one of many possible equivalent choices for text processing, etc. But, with clever marketing and development, MS became the biggest software firm in the world. Linux has the potential to be a major player. It is too early to say how significant a player. The fact that it is even mentioned in positive terms by PC-WEEK is very significant. But there are dangers. Many products As someone on the applixware list recently said, it is much worse to market a product with little or now support than to not matsomeone on the applixware gicc-will probably not take , , we are used to for WindoIt is known that the reason The ie. help with installationsa on It It rI don't think marketing is the main onepeopleoel> > -- James Gosling, Usenix keynote speech > > "I don't feel like a monk." > > -- David Bonn, Usenix attendee > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Sheldon E. Newhouse | e-mail: sen1@math.msu.edu | | Mathematics Department | | | Michigan State University | telephone: 517-355-9684 | | E. Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA | FAX: 517-432-1562 | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:29:30 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:04:26 -0500 (EST) From: "Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr." To: Idan Shoham cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: About the "Linux Market" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Idan Shoham wrote: > Hmmm. I wonder what the objective is? Do we really want Linux to become > the dominant desktop platform? In a word: Yes! We want free software to take over the computer world and drive out the hoarders. Best Regards, Joe Hartmann Tel: (603) 863 6073 K2AJV -issued email: joeh@sugar-river.net 1951 home-page: http://www.sugar-river.net/~joeh ------------------------------------------------------------- First Student at the: Linux Academy in the Sunshine Town of Newport, NH Thanks to RMS, Linus, and other contributors of free software! ------------- I grant this to the public domain ------------- From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:29:42 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:42:30 +0200 (SAT) From: Louis Mandelstam To: Dr Evan Summers cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Dr Evan Summers wrote: > I know of one major corporate success story (apart from 100's of little > ones in the Internet industry). > > There's a major clothing retailing chain in South Africa whose *entire* > central processing, warehouse, and each of their 150 stores (well, down > here, that's what we call a major chain), including all point-of-sales, > are running Linux. (Each store uses overnight UUCP to transfer data to > central.) Do they have any other Linux installations, incidently? Also, how does their Linux client base compare in size to other OSes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- L.Mandelstam - System Administrator louis@sacc.org.za S A Council of Churches, PO Box 4921, Johannesburg, 2000, South Africa tel:+27-11-492-1380 x114 fax:+27-11-492-1448 mobile: +27-83-229-0712 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From popmail Thu Jan 16 21:29:50 1997 From: "Darren D. Boyd" To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: GGI? Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:24:24 -0600 () MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Status: RO This (GGI) is new to me. Could someone please point me toward more information? Thanks, Darren > > With GGI, Linux will be the best PC gaming platform available. Although > being technically the best doesn't guarantee popularity, I have a gut > feeling, Linux will become the preferred OS for serious gaming. > ----------------------------|------------------------------ Darren Boyd | dboyd@commerce.usask.ca College of Commerce | http://www.commerce.usask.ca/ University of Saskatchewan | http://www.link.ca/~dboyd/ ----------------------------|------------------------------ Democracy is where you can say what you think, even if you don't think. From popmail Thu Jan 16 22:49:41 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 14:31:15 +0000 (GMT) From: "exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green)" To: Allen Francom cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, Allen Francom wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jan 1997, exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green) wrote: > > 1) Put a bunch of Ethernet cards into the Linux box > > 2) Turn on IP-forwarding in the kernel > > 3) Let'er rip. (After setting up the routing tables, of course). > > > > Each Ethernet card would be connected to a fiber transciever (10baseF), > > with the fiber link going out to the other building. > > What you've described so far is similar to problems I've bumped into > before. > > Humbly suggesting: > > Take a look at existing PBX service to the campus, and Audio/Video > department and their existing infrastructure and future requirements. 1) This is an American consolidated junior-senior high school, one of the newer ones built on the "campus plan". There is a central building with administrative offices, a junior high building, a high school building, two gym buildings, and a cafetorium building. The phone system is a standard 8-line system (8 buttons on the phone), not a full-blown PBX. 2) They don't have an audio-visual department 3) We're on VERY limited budget here (believe me, I'd prefer NOT to donate my labor, but that's not an option!). This is all coming out of repair funds to replace equipment fried by lightning. Right now, costs to replace two port servers, hubs, assorted printers, etc. fried in the last strike is around $7,000. If I can get them to spend $5,000, they'll never have to worry about that kind of damage again. Spending more than that is not an option. 4) I'd love to run 3-pair fiber, but I can't justify it to an administrator who asks "Should we spend money on capacity we won't need for several years, or should we buy textbooks for our students?". > My thoughts on single-mode fiber go like this: > > Single-mode is, I believe, what is used in SONET rings by > telephone companies and has a very high bandwidth. > > Such fiber could run many services at once, phone, audio video, > and networking. I agree with this reasoning, especially considering that their phone system was also one of the victims of the last lightning strike. Unfortunately the school district in question lacks a competent technology coordinator and thus has to rely on whatever the local expertise is. SONET rings are quite out of the realm of local talent. -- Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net From popmail Fri Jan 17 06:02:11 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:38:25 +1100 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: Linux Business Discussion Group , Red Hat Subject: Linux Accounting software (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Hi people One of the things we have bemoaned in the past is an industrial strength accounting package. This was discussed on the Caldera list recently with the foloowing result. I am cross posting to Linux business and Red Hat lists for information as I am sure that there will be people interested in participating in the beta program and running the final package... Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 http://www.interweft.com.au/ InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Jan 97 13:27:11 CDT From: larsenmw@norand.com Reply-To: caldera-users@caldera.com To: caldera-users-digest@caldera.com Cc: mark@wgs.com Subject: Linux Accounting software I recently posted to this list about accounting software for Linux. I had heard of AcctOnIt from WGS, and had downloaded the beta and played with it, but it was incomplete. After seeing how many other people on the list wanted linux-native accounting software, I wrote to Mark at WGS and suggested there might be a rather lucrative market for AcctOnIt (WGS' port of a DOS accounting package). Here is the response I got from Mark: >Sorry to take so long to reply. I have been fully occupied preparing >for and putting on UseLinux for the last several weeks, and now I am >cranking through the several hundred messages a day that have piled >up while I was gone. > >Here is what I propose: > >We are going to post all ported modules of AcctOnIt to the >ftp://www.wgs.com/pub/wgs/acctonit >directory. All have been compiled with FlagShip for ELF. After the >beta time is over (Bug reports dribble to nothing), we will then >leave only the GL and System Manager posted, and sell the other >modules separately. > >The product is completely ported, and largely tested.... but still >considered early beta quality for modules other than the GL. > >If we can get bug reports, we will respond to them with fixes, and >repostings. Tech support will exist to the degree possible for real >bugs. > >If you can get at least 50 people actively involved with beta, and >more that want the final commercial version.... we will take the hold >off the product. There is no printed documentation, but it is VERY >easy to use. My wife used a prior DOS version successfully and >learned both accounting and the software at the same time....without >manuals, and we have been using successive versions of this product >for GCS' books for a over a decade now. There are well over 50K >users of the DOS version.... so errors should be restricted to the >port, and not the product itself. I checked the ftp site, and there was a larger tarball posted on the 9th. I haven't installed it yet, so I don't know if everything's there or not, but I'm going to install it tonight and will post tomorrow regarding how it goes. Mike From popmail Fri Jan 17 06:02:17 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:17:27 +1100 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: exec@prysm.net cc: Allen Francom , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green) wrote: > 4) I'd love to run 3-pair fiber, but I can't justify it to an > administrator who asks "Should we spend money on capacity we won't need > for several years, or should we buy textbooks for our students?". I presume that they will be using 'volunteer' labour to install the cable? If so, it is probably a cheaper long term solution to install a single pair now. However, where paid staff or contractors are doing the installation, it is definitely cheaper in the long term to install 3 pair cable. The significant cost is the installation - not buying the cable. I went through this analysis some time ago and can't remember the comparative costings I'm afraid. However, given the rapid move towards multimedia, video conferencing and distribution etc within the educational field, just how many years will it be before even a high school is pushed into such high bandwidth hungry areas - my bet is within 5 years (but that is coloured possibly by experiences at a *very* remote community college type institution here in Australia). The life of a well installed fibre cable is well over 10 years (I have seen suggestions that it could be 25 to 50 years, provided it doesn't get damaged somehow). In this scenario, the lifetime cost of the 3 pair compared to single pair cable is very small. As a network manager, the one thing I am *sure* about is that the bandwidth requirements will increase beyond my capability to plan beyond 3 years (and the year three prediction is a bit shaky...). Having excess cable capacity is also necessary to cope with cable problems. What if your single pair falls over... I would suggest the school consider these issues very carefully - if they can't afford multi-pair cable, can they *really* afford to go ahead? Once it is installed and they depend on it (which they will), are they going to accept the downtime and cost of installing a new cable/repairing a damaged cable??? Sometimes, it's better NOT to do something if you can't afford to do it properly/maintain it as the implications of it failing can be pretty horrible. Someone else mentioned using direct serial PPP if the bandwidth requirements were small - don't forget you can gang together 2 serial lines using the eql system to give you 2x115.2kbps per link throughput using direct serial connects. If you set up a Linux server in each building, you caould handle quite a bit this way - using caching/proxy web servers etc - things like NFS would be a bit slow however. It depends on what they need right now. Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 http://www.interweft.com.au/ InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Fri Jan 17 06:02:32 1997 From: "Hall, Barrie" To: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Subject: RE: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 11:01:00 PST Status: O Im a little confused here...The central issue seems to be grounding. The 10BaseT interface on a standard Ethernet card is balanced and electrically isolated from the PC. Checking the standard shows that 10BaseT transformers are rated for 1.5KV (minimum). 10BaseT Hubs have similar electrical isolation (many are powered from a plugpack supply anyway). Bearing the above in mind, the solution to the problem would be to centrally locate the Linux machine and a 10BaseT Hub and run CAT 5 cable out to each building. As long as your cable runs are less than 175m this should all work. You only need one ethernet card in your Linux system. Barrie Hall, Senior Networks/Software Engineer, NetComm Ltd, (Cable Data Group). From popmail Fri Jan 17 06:02:41 1997 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:35:36 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Hamstra To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: tried dosemu lately? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO This is just a friendly nudge to encourage all of you to try out as much DOS software as possible under dosemu. It's been a while (read: about a year) since I tried to run any significant software under it. I've got 0.64.2.1 with emumodule running with Linux-2.0.28 now, and I must say I'm very impressed with its capabilities. The last time I tried to run MicroStation for DOS under dosemu, it didn't work at all. Now I can run MicroStation v5 (although not the current MicroStation95), Modeler, MasterPiece, and TriForma --pretty much the whole schmear, though not the most recent versions. I've also got other just-for-fun stuff like Duke Nukem 3D working just fine. Why post this to linux-biz? Because even though I think native Linux ports (like those of MicroStation and MasterPiece that I have done) should be our real goal, DOS emulations of real apps make for pretty good demonstrations and trial implementations --and in the case of MicroStation, they may well be able to provide added functionality (in the form of Modeler, TriForma, and other add-ons that haven't been ported yet.) Mark Hamstra Bentley Systems, Inc. From popmail Fri Jan 17 10:03:29 1997 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn_Elenfors?= To: "linux-biz@lege.com" , "'Darren D. Boyd'" Subject: RE: GGI? Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:14:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC044E.819B73A0" Status: RO This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC044E.819B73A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >This (GGI) is new to me. Could someone please point me toward more information Check out http://synergy.caltech.edu/~ggi/ for more information. Alta Vista is your friend. /Bjorn > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC044E.819B73A0-- From popmail Fri Jan 17 13:01:22 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:08:58 +0200 (SAT) From: Dr Evan Summers To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: GGI? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O > This (GGI) is new to me. Could someone please point me toward more > information? http://synergy.caltech.edu/~ggi/ From popmail Fri Jan 17 13:01:22 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:06:22 +0200 (SAT) From: Dr Evan Summers To: Louis Mandelstam cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O Dear Louis, > > There's a major clothing retailing chain in South Africa whose *entire* > > central processing, warehouse, and each of their 150 stores (well, down > > here, that's what we call a major chain), including all point-of-sales, > > are running Linux. (Each store uses overnight UUCP to transfer data to > > central.) > > Do they have any other Linux installations, incidently? No, that's the first. But not the last! > Also, how does their Linux client base compare in size to other OSes? They have another big retailing client with 1000 SCO XENIX/UNIX machines. That client would have gone Linux when they needed TCP/IP for their new VSAT network, rather than SCO TCP/IP upgrade, but they had old Chase multiports in hundreds of their stores, and Chase Research refused to give us the specs to write a driver for that multiport (which had been discontinued anyway). That's why "Chase" is a swear word 'round here... Regards Evan From popmail Fri Jan 17 13:01:36 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:54:05 +0200 (SAT) From: Dr Evan Summers To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: school MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO With all this discussion about this School's proposed fibre-optic network installation, I felt compelled to add something, anything! > two port servers, hubs, assorted printers, etc. fried in the last strike > is around $7,000. If I can get them to spend $5,000, they'll never have to What about spending $7000 to replace damaged equipment, not have to worry about lightning again, and also have much improved infrastructure than before, ready for video conferencing and the 21st century?! What they saving on your labour, they could at least spend on the installation... Regards Evan From popmail Sat Jan 18 10:07:34 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:47:01 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Linux Business Discussion Group , Red Hat From: Scott Christley Subject: Re: Linux Accounting software (fwd) Status: RO FYI- NET-Community is in the process of writing Financial software for Linux. We are using GNUstep as the underlying OO hierarchy which will make the programs highly portable, and we are using the GNUstep Database Library which will allow us to work with just about any SQL Database (it currently supports Sybase, SQL Server, and Postgres). Our expertise is in the area of city governmental accounting, so we are especially interested in talking with people who are familiar with other accounting systems: education, non-profit, service bureaus, small business, manufacturing, holding companies, etc. Our design allows for a flexible account coding structure, so the idea is to have templates which one can use as a basis for your particular industry. It is our intention to make it free software. Scott Christley NET-Community From popmail Sat Jan 18 10:07:46 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:45:45 +0200 (SAT) From: Louis Mandelstam To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: A job well done (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Way I see it, some members of this list would consider the following topical, and some not. There is no key that second group can simply press to get the following, but the first group can press their mailer's delete key and pretend I didn't violate their rights. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louis Mandelstam (Acting in my personal capacity for a change) email: louis@lia.net mobile: +27-83-229-0712 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 09:03:07 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Nance To: linux-kernel@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: A job well done Hi all, This post is not about technical kernel development issues. Rather it is a success story that the people on this mailing list are largely responsible for, so I thought I would post it here. I work for a medium sized company that develops CAD tools for integrated circuit design. We have about 400 employees. Keep in mind that this figure includes non-technical people and people who dont even use computers. Most of the employees are in California, but I am in North Carolina so I don't know most of these 400 people. Yesterday I decided to send email to everyone in the company requesting that anyone useing Linux send me some email telling me what they were doing with it. In the 18 hours since I sent that email I have recieved 34 responses. 33 of those from people using Linux and 1 from the VP of Marketing and Corporate Product Management who requested a summary of my results because people keep asking him about Linux. I think this is astounding. I dont think I am going to have any trouble getting 7 more responses to make it to 10% of the company. I have also been impressed by the number of "higher up" people who at least know about Linux. The VP of my division (who has not sent me any mail yet) uses it, I got mail from another VP in California who told me that they were running it on one of their computers, and I got the mail from the VP I mentioned above. Who said this was just a hackers OS? Anyway, I though you all would like to know that people notice and appreciate and use your work. Thanks again, Jim From popmail Sat Jan 18 10:07:46 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:03:41 -0500 (EST) From: "Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr." To: Dr Evan Summers cc: Louis Mandelstam , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO What we need is a higly visible BLACK LIST of vendors that hoard their technical information. CHASE may lead the list- I vote for Microsolutions as the second on the list. Their Parallel Port Hard Drive works ONLY for DOS or Windows -- and no information is available for porters "sorry" --- Yeah -- sorry I paid them $500 bucks for the thing that now sits unusable.. Best Regards, Joe Hartmann Tel: (603) 863 6073 K2AJV -issued email: joeh@sugar-river.net 1951 home-page: http://www.sugar-river.net/~joeh ------------------------------------------------------------- First Student at the: Linux Academy in the Sunshine Town of Newport, NH Thanks to RMS, Linus, and other contributors of free software! ------------- I grant this to the public domain ------------- On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dr Evan Summers wrote: > Dear Louis, > > > > There's a major clothing retailing chain in South Africa whose *entire* > > > central processing, warehouse, and each of their 150 stores (well, down > > > here, that's what we call a major chain), including all point-of-sales, > > > are running Linux. (Each store uses overnight UUCP to transfer data to > > > central.) > > > > Do they have any other Linux installations, incidently? > > No, that's the first. But not the last! > > > Also, how does their Linux client base compare in size to other OSes? > > They have another big retailing client with 1000 SCO XENIX/UNIX machines. > That client would have gone Linux when they needed TCP/IP for their new > VSAT network, rather than SCO TCP/IP upgrade, but they had old Chase > multiports in hundreds of their stores, and Chase Research refused to give > us the specs to write a driver for that multiport (which had been > discontinued anyway). That's why "Chase" is a swear word 'round here... > > Regards > > Evan > > From popmail Sat Jan 18 10:10:05 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:01:24 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon To: "Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr." cc: Dr Evan Summers , Louis Mandelstam , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr. wrote: > What we need is a higly visible BLACK LIST of vendors that hoard their > technical information. > > CHASE may lead the list- I vote for Microsolutions as the second on the > list. Xircom won't release any info not even under NDA. Same thing with Adaptec. Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com From popmail Sat Jan 18 10:12:10 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:22:27 -0700 (MST) From: Idan Shoham To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO I second that motion! How about adding Xircom to the list?!?!? > What we need is a higly visible BLACK LIST of vendors that hoard their > technical information. > CHASE may lead the list- I vote for Microsolutions as the second on the > list. Their Parallel Port Hard Drive works ONLY for DOS or Windows -- > and no information is available for porters "sorry" --- Yeah -- sorry I > paid them $500 bucks for the thing that now sits unusable.. > > Best Regards, > > Joe Hartmann Tel: (603) 863 6073 > K2AJV -issued email: joeh@sugar-river.net > 1951 home-page: http://www.sugar-river.net/~joeh > ------------------------------------------------------------- -- Idan From popmail Sat Jan 18 10:12:24 1997 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 11:57:02 +1100 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: Red Hat , Linux Business Discussion Group Subject: AcctOnIt (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO OOPS Having pointed everyone at this yesterdayby cross-posting an earlier message, I find that the tarball is incomplete! Sorry people... Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 http://www.interweft.com.au/ InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 07:41:41 CDT From: larsenmw@norand.com Reply-To: caldera-users@caldera.com To: caldera-users-digest@caldera.com Subject: AcctOnIt The AcctOnIt beta tarball isn't complete yet. After posting yesterday, I got a subsequent email from WGS saying it would be complete "in just a few days". I'll monitor the download site and post again when everything's there. Mike From popmail Sat Jan 18 10:12:23 1997 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:21:31 +0000 (GMT) From: "exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green)" To: Robert Hart cc: exec@prysm.net, Allen Francom , linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Robert Hart wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, exec@prysm.net (Eric L. Green) wrote: > > 4) I'd love to run 3-pair fiber, but I can't justify it to an > > administrator who asks "Should we spend money on capacity we won't need > > for several years, or should we buy textbooks for our students?". > > I presume that they will be using 'volunteer' labour to install the > cable? If so, it is probably a cheaper long term solution to install a > single pair now. However, where paid staff or contractors are doing > the installation, it is definitely cheaper in the long term to install > 3 pair cable. The significant cost is the installation - not buying > the cable. Yes, volunteer labor to install the cable. > > However, given the rapid move towards multimedia, video conferencing > and distribution etc within the educational field, just how many years > will it be before even a high school is pushed into such high > bandwidth hungry areas - my bet is within 5 years (but that is The school in question is a school with about 800 students in a rural area of Mississippi. In Mississippi, they're lucky to have textbooks, much less high tech :-). (The only exception seems to be on the gulf coast, where the casinos have driven up property values so much that the school systems get money faster than they can figure out ways to spend it!). > Having excess cable capacity is also necessary to cope with cable > problems. What if your single pair falls over... Well, then we get our volunteer to run it again :-). (Note that Stennis Space Center is near this school, and a NASA guy is going to do the actual wiring). The administrative server is in the central hub building with the administrators. If teachers etc. can't get to the Internet due to fiber being down it'll be disappointing, but 3 day disasters are the norm in the teaching business (can you say 'ice storm'?!). > Sometimes, it's better NOT to do something if you can't afford to do > it properly/maintain it as the implications of it failing can be > pretty horrible. True. That is a widespread problem in the state of Mississippi. For example, the state has decreed that every central office will have an administrative server connected via a frame-relay network to the state department of education. Unfortunately, most districts in Mississippi assign technology to one of their instructional supervisors, most of whom are more comfortable with a Selectric. Frame relay? Isn't that the thing that blows and makes your windshield wipers stop working? :-). > If you set up a Linux server in each building, you caould handle quite > a bit this way - using caching/proxy web servers etc - things like NFS > would be a bit slow however. It depends on what they need right now. The network has to handle more than just Internet. For example, student demographic information and schedules must be maintained on a server in the central administrative cluster for future transmission to the state over the currently-under-construction frame-relay network. It would be nice for teachers to be able to post their grades and attendance via the network too, though some teachers gripe that this takes more time than the old fashioned way of scribbling absences on a slip of paper... -- Eric Lee Green Educational Administration Solutions exec@prysm.net From popmail Sat Jan 18 10:12:35 1997 From: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" Subject: Re: $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz To: michael@memra.com (Michael Dillon) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:50:57 +1030 (CST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO Michael Dillon wrote: > Xircom won't release any info not even under NDA. That is not true on two counts. They *would* release info under NDA, but that is not appropriate for writing a free device driver. Anyway, they have changed their policy now so you can write device drivers for their stuff if you want. Nobody has rushed forward to write the drivers so the end-user situation is still the same as before, but it is not because the information is not available. This is documented in both the Ethernet-HOWTO and the PCMCIA-HOWTO. Regards, -- Geoffrey D. Bennett (geoffrey@netcraft.com.au) Computer Systems Manager, NetCraft Australia http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/ Red Hat Linux Resellers: http://www.netcraft.com.au/redhat/ From popmail Sat Jan 18 13:00:54 1997 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:45:51 +0100 (MET) From: Linux-Business Request To: Linux-Business Subject: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Dec. 23. 1996 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=linux-biz@lege.com - If you do *NOT* want your post archived at Reference.COM, include the following line as an email header or as the first line of your message: X-No-Archive: yes -- Leif Erlingsson From popmail Sun Jan 19 07:42:09 1997 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:49:51 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business Subject: Great Linux Web Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO http://www.linuxnow.com is a great Linux Web site. If you don't already have it bookmarked, check it out. A special service maintained on this site (developed by CalTech students) is a nearly exhaustive database of downloadable Linux software including selected mirror download sites around the world. Dwight From popmail Tue Jan 21 18:47:52 1997 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:59:38 -0500 From: Gary Richardson MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com CC: redhat-list@redhat.com Subject: Accounting Software Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO To those interested, wgs has posted this file series: acctonit.tar ftp://ftp.wgs.com/pub/wgs/acctonit/ Check the WGS website for more info. I believe you must have FlagShip before you may use this (not the demo) -- Gary Richardson garich@ptd.net From popmail Sat Jan 25 07:53:57 1997 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:24:18 +0200 (SAT) From: Louis Mandelstam To: linux-biz@lege.com cc: "W. Reilly Cooley" Subject: Re: Good point of Linux over Windows NT (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Forwarding to the linux-biz list. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:48:34 -0800 (PST) From: "W. Reilly Cooley" To: linux-kernel@vger.rutgers.edu Subject: Re: Good point of Linux over Windows NT This thread is not really too relevant to this list, but since it is here, I shall put forth my notions on the subject. If what is desirable here is attention from corporate users, then there are several strategies which may lend an air of "validity" (to the corporate bosses' eyes) to Linux: 1. "Linux Certification" Sounds dumb and trendy, but its much easier to get employment with a CNE or MCE (or whatever they call it), than to say, "Duh, I've been hacking Linux pretty seriously for the last few years." Seems like some of the commercial organizations could agree on some exams (with, of course, part of the profit from the fees going to further Linux development). 2. Benchmark comparisons in major industry periodicals. This is dangerous insofar as the validity of these magazines may be biased by "Corporate Subscriptions", but there ought to be someone other than Linux enthusiasts harping its merits. 3. A bit less fanatacism and reactionism. I recall reading in Byte many issues ago an article on Linux that compared its enthusists to Amiga enthusists, and cited that the comparable zealousness may harm corporate acceptance more than it helps. I think perhaps he is right: Which would be more appealing: a room full of CS grads yelling "Linux rocks!" or Microsoft with nice, pretty logos and a large base of usable applications? 4. More brainlessness and user-friendliness, both in use of the OS (a nicely pre-configured window manager would do) and of installation and use of applications. That is largely why people like MS Windows and why people write applications for it. This may sound heretical, but, point of fact, what do we really want? We want to be able use UN*X (preferably Linux) at work. Jobs! That's what the people want! This will only happen if we let less advanced users in on the game. Either way, we'll end up fixing neophytes' systems. Would you rather it be Windows or Linux? This is largely why Mac has managed to hold such a large percentage of market with a closed, propriety system over DOS. 5. Applications!! Applications!! That's also partly why Windows won out over OS/2 (despite the fact that OS/2 could run 16-bit Windows apps faster than Windows). This is partly also why NeXT never took off, nor did the eariler movement to market UN*X flavors for 80x86 (the price didn't help that either). Ultimately, if the OS has no applications (and ones that look good--unlike many of the stock X apps), then few will use it. We already have several big applications: Netscape, Mathematica, WordPerfect, etc. Adobe makes several products for Sun and SGI. How difficult would a port be? Another idea is support for cross-development, perhaps supporting (or translating) code from IDEs like Visual C++, Visual Basic, Borland stuff, etc. Perhaps a free implementation of the Microsoft Foundation Classes, for X/UN*X, that could be compiled with g++? I have been following up on the NeXT buy-out, reading with some interest in the attempt to merge the OSes. Sounds like a bad idea. Nevertheless, one of the commentators mentioned that an improved Mac shell would incorporate features of the NeXT OS, but drop the UN*X shell and commands. It occurred to me what a splendid thing it would be if someone developed an OS which had both a nice, user-friendly GUI, for the graphic designers and secretaries, and a good command-line interface, like a UN*X shell and commands, that's fully tweakable. Imagine--a real choice! W. Reilly Cooley ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Naked Ape Consulting 1509 NE 10th Ave., #104 Portland, OR 97232 503 287-2165 wcooley@navi.net http://www.navi.net/~wcooley A horse walks into a bar and the bartender says, "Hey, why the long face?" From popmail Sun Jan 26 14:44:19 1997 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:16:12 -0700 (MST) From: Idan Shoham To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: anecdotal references WWW site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO Hi all, Just an update for you interested parties.. There are now over 50 companies registered on the "Linux uses in business" WWW site, at http://www.m-tech.ab.ca/linux-biz. They represent quite a diverse mix of industries and some public sector uses. A summary follows. Cheers, -- Idan Shoham, M-Tech idan@m-tech.ab.ca http://www.m-tech.ab.ca Internet service companies * Deja News, Inc. * iConnect Corporation * Rogers Cable * BokNet * Sandhill Solutions * Preferred Internet, Inc. * Blue Marble Live * Telnet Canada Enterprises, Ltd. * The Reference * Internation * Seafare Access Ltd. * The Net Result System Services, Inc. * Vigilant Internet services Ltd. * WebJack.com * Websense.Net * Creanet * Dataplus * IN*KA e.V. Software developers and computer consultants * M-Tech Mercury Information Technology, Inc. * Seattle Software Labs, Inc. * ARDI -- makers of Executor Mac emulator software * Wolfram Research * Progressive Computer Concepts, Inc. * Voxar Ltd * Townsend Engineering Services, Inc. * Realtime Software Solutions, Inc. * Byte Designs Ltd. * Proven Software Inc. * Bent Media Inc. * tummy.com, ltd. Telecommunications companies * Telechamada, Chamada de Pessoas, SA * RTV Regional-TV Services GmbH * Sony WorldWide Networks The oil and gas industry * Decollement Consulting, Ltd. * Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers The publishing industry * Byte Magazine (McGraw Hill) * The Linux Journal (Specialized Systems Consultants, Inc.) * Digisoft Software Development The financial industry * INTECH The automotive industry * Debis Systemhaus CCS GmbH * Mercedes-Benz AG The healthcare sector * The Alberta Provincial Mental Health Advisory Board The military and its support industries * Science Applications International Corporation * U.S. Army Publications and Printing Command * U.S. Navy: Personnel Support Activity, San Diego Agriculture * Agdia, Inc. Sports and recreation * The Calgary Winter Club Real Estate * Wellsford Residential Property Trust Tourism * Allied Tours Vendors of Linux hardware, software, books, etc. * Apache Digital Corporation * Linux Systems Labs * Revolutionary Software, Inc. * Craftwork Solutions, Inc. * Sangoma Technologies Inc. * Numerical Algorithms Group, Inc. * All-Linux Shopping Mall * WorkGroup Solutions, Inc Educational and research institutions * Calif. Polytechnic State Univ. From popmail Wed Jan 29 00:17:57 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:03:40 -0600 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: mark david mcCreary Subject: backup service swap ? Status: RO $ wc -l linux-biz 213 linux-biz Well, 200 people on a list about Linux business sounds real nice. Not too big. Greetings from Texas, where I am a one man ISP. With no intentions of getting any bigger. One of my problems is providing a transisition for my customers should I get run over by a truck tomorrow. Or even want to take a vacation :-) I'd like to explore the idea of some sort of co-op where I could trade backup services with other people in the same situation. So that I could maintain a high degree of reliable service. A more pressing need (he says optimistictly :-) is to get some redundancy in my network, so that I am not dependent on any one location having to be up all the time. Maybe swap boxes. I'll put up an old 486 box on my rack, and give you root access. You do the same on your rack. So if there is anybody out there that might have similiar needs, please let me know. mark mark david mcCreary Internet Tools, Inc. 4615 Post Oak Place, Suite 140 mdm@internet-tools.com Houston, Texas 77027 http://www.internet-tools.com 713.627.9600 From popmail Sat Feb 1 17:32:28 1997 Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 01:23:57 +1100 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: Linux Business Discussion Group Subject: Re: Using Linux (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO This was posted to the Red Hat list - I thought people here might be interested... Robert Hart hartr@interweft.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 http://www.interweft.com.au/ InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:44:15 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Klemmer Reply-To: redhat-list@redhat.com To: Red Hat List Subject: Re: Using Linux (fwd) Resent-Date: 30 Jan 1997 01:44:24 -0000 Resent-From: redhat-list@redhat.com Resent-cc: recipient list not shown: ; This was posted on a DOD Webmaster list I'm on. I thought it might be of interest to anyone wanting to promote Linux (especially RH!) to their organizations. And I figured the RH guys wouldn't mind seeing it, too. --- "It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word." -- Andrew Jackson ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:37:57 EDT From: James Lindley To: Multiple recipients of list WEBMASTERS Subject: Re: Using Linux From: CPT Robert Kulagowski Subject: Linux as WebServer/Fileserver [discussing the various merits of RedHat Linux and other OS's as a Web Server] On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Rubin, Martin (PRC) wrote: > Good points made but I still stand by my statements. In a time ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I note in passing that RedHat LINUX is the OS being used for the Intel(TM) version of WARLORD, which has been ported to a laptop and will be "Proof of Concept/User Tested" in the near future. Since WARLORD is a major player in comms/data, especially in the intelligence arena, the government and contractors expect the use of an inexpensive, publicly-available OS backed up by hundreds of volunteer (free) programmers (along with some additional GOTS) to replace/extend the Sun Solaris-based workstation/mainframe WARLORD at a cost substantially under current configurations. These decisions should permit the wide-spread dissemination of WARLORD capabilities to many more units/G2/S2. CW3 James R. Lindley Lindley's No matter how idiot-proof 251A, USA Third you make the program, USARC DCSINT Law of the idiot is smarter Auto Intel Proc Sys Officer ADP: than you! "The Army's only ground-based aerial observer!" -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, Errata and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ /RedHat-Errata /RedHat-Tips /mailing-lists To unsubscribe: mail redhat-list-request@redhat.com with "unsubscribe" as the Subject. From popmail Sat Feb 1 17:33:06 1997 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:03:16 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Linux Business Discussion Group cc: Jan Sandred , Martin Michlmayr , Cecilia Lindemalm Subject: Positive 6 full pages Special on Linux; Linux steps in on the market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Status: RO -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- http://www.datateknik.se/arkiv/97-02/frame48.html (though in Swedish, but *do* look at the cool photo!) The renown Swedish computer magazine Datateknik in it's latest number features a positive 6 full pages Special on Linux; Linux steps in on the market, written by Cecilia Lindemalm , freelance writer Ola Sigurdsson and Karl König Königsson (http://www.datateknik.se/arkiv/97-02/kkk.html). Click on the different articles under "SPECIAL". I am very impressed that Datateknik and Ola Sigurdsson has chosen to do this special on Linux, considering that Jan Sandred only in October wrote in E-Mail that Linux was not an alternative because there is no office applications, and Ola Sigurdsson, who himself use Linux at home, in a reply to a letter from the readers, from Martin Michlmayr I believe, wrote something to the same effect. In the above special they are doing a great job of covering Applixware etc. A very nice job. Well done Datateknik! == Leif Erlingsson http://www.lege.com +46 8 604-0995 FAX +46 8 605-2551 pgp -kvc leif@lege.com DB 47 2F B1 F8 6B E5 92 7A 97 5C C8 7E 62 CA 7C Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQCVAgUBMvIXxQ0882B94nEhAQHX7gP/YyQuw5/IJ3mcvByqbTQ7r/IfMrVdfgIl XxmOe9wAUsTatRJOUMDqO5EFo2WsbsYVX3IohEeoEkmrxQVeAyIhXMfDgAf7dAcI zATxm87jNUZ+F21eUSBDgqonMJxsYYLvYEX03T5i923m9fcpZS43SkbLsj2DeswK N6sVyxiRDmo= =UdFG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Please contact for Public Key, if you don't have it. ID: 1024/7DE27121 1996/08/17 Leif Erlingsson From popmail Sat Feb 1 17:34:27 1997 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:24:35 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business Subject: OpenDOS Announcement (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:01:28 -0700 From: Nancy Pomeroy Reply-To: caldera-users@caldera.com To: caldera-users@caldera.com Subject: OpenDOS Announcement Hi Evan, Here's an advanced copy of the OpenDOS announcment that we're making on Monday. Also, were you able to get a contact name at Minolta Canada that I can use as a COL reference for the press? I need the info ASAP. Could you update me today? My number is (801) 377-7687 ext 206 Thanks! Nancy Pomeroy Caldera Inc. FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CALDERA RELEASES OPENDOS 7.01 TO THE INTERNET OpenDOS Free for Non-Commercial and Educational Use PROVO, Utah—February 3, 1997—Caldera Inc. today announced the electronic release of OpenDOS to the Internet. This release, which may be downloaded from Caldera's web site, fulfills Caldera's promise to make OpenDOS available by the end of first quarter 1997. The OpenDOS kernel source code will be made available during March. OpenDOS is the first commercial DOS technology freely available via the Internet. Caldera OpenDOS is a complete operating system supporting all DOS-based applications including Microsoft Windows (3.1 and 3.11), and networking systems that include Novell NetWare, Windows for Workgroups and LANtastic. The OpenDOS binary is based on DOS 7 technology acquired from Novell in 1996 and provides a mainstream, no-cost OS for research and education. In the future, OpenDOS will also provide a low-cost DOS integration environment for OpenLinux users. Caldera's release of the OpenDOS binary and source to the Internet allows companies and individuals to use and develop OpenDOS for future use in their own products. OpenDOS also enhances the ability of embedded systems like Network Computers, NetPCs, kiosks, etc. by allowing OEMs and VARs to use well-known technology as a base for their own solutions. "Caldera is working with the Internet community to make DOS and Linux commercial systems as open and available as possible so that end users have high-quality, low-cost choices," said Bryan Sparks, President and CEO of Caldera Inc. " Both OpenLinux and OpenDOS allow end users to extend their own networks by building on what they already have without the high cost of new software and retraining." The OpenDOS binary includes: Full-featured DOS Full Multitasking— Pentium, 486 and 386 Novell Personal NetWare (client/server)—easy peer-to-p