From popmail Sat Oct 12 23:01:00 1996 Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:14:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Mitchell Leben To: RedHat-List Subject: Applixware for real? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: OK, I am a bit of a skeptic. Can Applixware really replace MSOffice? Currently I use Linux/X for all surfing/internet activities, simple text editing and basic multimedia. I only boot 95/NT for games, the odd Win* only app (Quicken - yes, I tried Wine), and office apps like Word and PowerPoint. I don't have the time or inclination to learn LaTex. Face it, Microsoft Word is just to easy to use. Can Applixware compete with Word? Specifically: 1. Font scaling, wysiwyg editing? 2. Easily import Tif, Gif formats? 3. ....etc. (spell checking, all those other "features") Basically, I would like to know if I can just fire up Applixware and create an invoice or letter mom, *without* messing around with Linux. Also, with Applix Presentation Graphics, can I create a postscript file that any service bureau can take? Thanks for any real world experiences. Linux is great, but sometimes I just want to get the job done, no hassles. -Mitch ---------------------------- Mitchell Leben mitch@smithphoto.com http://snappy.smithphoto.com/~mitch ---------------------------- -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 15:01:17 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 07:55:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "David R. McGown" To: Mitchell Leben Subject: Re: Applixware for real? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 12 Oct 1996, Mitchell Leben wrote: > OK, I am a bit of a skeptic. Can Applixware really replace MSOffice? > Yes. > Currently I use Linux/X for all surfing/internet activities, simple text > editing and basic multimedia. I only boot 95/NT for games, the odd Win* > only app (Quicken - yes, I tried Wine), and office apps like Word and > PowerPoint. > > I don't have the time or inclination to learn LaTex. Face it, Microsoft > Word is just to easy to use. Can Applixware compete with Word? Specifically: > > 1. Font scaling, wysiwyg editing? > 2. Easily import Tif, Gif formats? > 3. ....etc. (spell checking, all those other "features") Yes to all the above, and just as easy to use. > > Basically, I would like to know if I can just fire up Applixware and > create an invoice or letter mom, *without* messing around with Linux. > Yes. > Also, with Applix Presentation Graphics, can I create a postscript file > that any service bureau can take? > Yes. Default output is Postscript. > Thanks for any real world experiences. Linux is great, but sometimes I > just want to get the job done, no hassles. > > -Mitch > I purchased Applixware as soon as the October sale was announced, and I am VERY impressed with it. It is FAST, MSOffice95 under NT on a P133 seems to run about half the speed of Applixware running on a 486DX4-100. The applications are very full featured and intuitive. If you are familiar with Word, etc., you will find Applixware very similar. The only "problem" so far is the lack of export filters to popular PC-based applications such as Word, but I understand that is being worked on. And there are work arounds for transferring documents, such as exporting RTF, that require some reformatting on the other end. IMO, Applixware makes Linux a desktop OS, there is no reason for me to go back (except for CAD). David dmcgown@access.digex.net David R. McGown dmcgown@va.gibbscox.com -o-O-o- LINUX INSIDE! Home: (703)683-1599 206 Adams Ave ALPHA GENERATION! Work: (703)416-1240 Alexandria, VA 22301 -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 18:01:10 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 06:37:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Yoshua Gilbert To: RedHat-List Subject: Re: Applixware for real? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, David R. McGown wrote: > On Sat, 12 Oct 1996, Mitchell Leben wrote: > > > OK, I am a bit of a skeptic. Can Applixware really replace MSOffice? > > > > Yes. > > > Currently I use Linux/X for all surfing/internet activities, simple text > > editing and basic multimedia. I only boot 95/NT for games, the odd Win* > > only app (Quicken - yes, I tried Wine), and office apps like Word and > > PowerPoint. > > > > I don't have the time or inclination to learn LaTex. Face it, Microsoft > > Word is just to easy to use. Can Applixware compete with Word? Specifically: > > > > 1. Font scaling, wysiwyg editing? > > 2. Easily import Tif, Gif formats? > > 3. ....etc. (spell checking, all those other "features") > > Yes to all the above, and just as easy to use. > > > > > Basically, I would like to know if I can just fire up Applixware and > > create an invoice or letter mom, *without* messing around with Linux. > > > > Yes. > > > Also, with Applix Presentation Graphics, can I create a postscript file > > that any service bureau can take? > > > > Yes. Default output is Postscript. > > > Thanks for any real world experiences. Linux is great, but sometimes I > > just want to get the job done, no hassles. > > > > -Mitch > > > > I purchased Applixware as soon as the October sale was announced, and I am > VERY impressed with it. It is FAST, MSOffice95 under NT on a P133 seems > to run about half the speed of Applixware running on a 486DX4-100. The > applications are very full featured and intuitive. If you are familiar > with Word, etc., you will find Applixware very similar. The only > "problem" so far is the lack of export filters to popular PC-based > applications such as Word, but I understand that is being worked on. And > there are work arounds for transferring documents, such as exporting RTF, > that require some reformatting on the other end. > > IMO, Applixware makes Linux a desktop OS, there is no reason for me to go > back (except for CAD). > > David > > dmcgown@access.digex.net David R. McGown > dmcgown@va.gibbscox.com -o-O-o- LINUX INSIDE! > Home: (703)683-1599 206 Adams Ave ALPHA GENERATION! > Work: (703)416-1240 Alexandria, VA 22301 > > > -- > PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! > ________________________________________________________________________ > http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO > http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null > > This sounds very promising. Is there a version that will run under SPARC Linux ? if not, are there plans for one ? Yoshua Gilbert yoshua@eskimo.com -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 18:01:22 1996 To: redhat-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Applixware for real? Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 10:53:49 -0400 From: Donnie Barnes Status: RO X-Status: >> IMO, Applixware makes Linux a desktop OS, there is no reason for me to go >> back (except for CAD). > >This sounds very promising. Is there a version that will run under SPARC >Linux ? if not, are there plans for one ? No, there is only the Intel version. There are no plans for the other platforms until they each sell enough copies to talk Applix into the port. I don't expect that to happen any time in the near future, but it could happen eventually. --Donnie -- Donnie Barnes http://www.redhat.com/~djb "Bah." djb@redhat.com http://www.turner.com/lazarusman/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _Things You'd NEVER Expect A Southerner To Say_ by Vic Henley: ** I hate the long version of ``Free Bird''. -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 18:01:34 1996 To: redhat-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Applixware for real? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 11:13:12 -0400 From: Mark Hamstra Status: RO X-Status: > IMO, Applixware makes Linux a desktop OS, there is no reason for me to go > back (except for CAD). Aauuuugh! I'm working as hard as I can on this one, but people dismissing Linux for CAD work out-of-hand is *really* frustrating! If you qualify for academic licensing, Linux will be about your best option for CAD (on any platform) before the end of this year with the release of the next edition of the MicroStation Academic Suite. If you do not qualify for academic licensing and would like to use MicroStation on Linux in a commercial environment, you need to go to http://www.bentley.com/products/change-request.html and make your desires known. Bentley has nothing against supporting Linux commercially, but it ain't going to happen until enough people express a desire for full commercial support. With the combination of MicroStation and Applixware, there would be little to no reason why you couldn't run a complete design office on nothing but Linux. Mark Hamstra Bentley Systems, Inc. -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 19:00:51 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:15:35 -0400 From: "Sheldon E. Newhouse" To: redhat-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Applixware for real? Status: RO X-Status: Mark Hamstra writes: > > > IMO, Applixware makes Linux a desktop OS, there is no reason for me to go > > back (except for CAD). > > Aauuuugh! > > I'm working as hard as I can on this one, but people dismissing Linux for CAD > work out-of-hand is *really* frustrating! > > If you qualify for academic licensing, Linux will be about your best option for > CAD (on any platform) before the end of this year with the release of the next > edition of the MicroStation Academic Suite. > > If you do not qualify for academic licensing and would like to use MicroStation > on Linux in a commercial environment, you need to go to > http://www.bentley.com/products/change-request.html and make your desires known. > Bentley has nothing against supporting Linux commercially, but it ain't going > to happen until enough people express a desire for full commercial support. > > With the combination of MicroStation and Applixware, there would be little to > no reason why you couldn't run a complete design office on nothing but Linux. > > Mark Hamstra > Bentley Systems, Inc. What about image processing? One of the main frustrations I still have is that we still have to use Photoshop to maneuver figures for various kinds of designs. Gimp just doesn't do it yet, and it does not seem that xv has the same capabilities. Actually, I just starting fooling around with xv, so I may change my mind later, but that is my current opinion. If an office needs to scan in two images, cut a part of one image with a drawing tool, change colors, smooth and dither, paste it into the other image, then, Photoshop is the only thing I know which will presently do this. Maybe GIMP will be there in a year or so, but it doesn't cut it now. Can these things be done with the present tools (Applixware, MicroStation, etc. ) available for Linux? TIA, -sen --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Sheldon E. Newhouse | e-mail: sen1@math.msu.edu | | Mathematics Department | | | Michigan State University | telephone: 517-355-9684 | | E. Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA | FAX: 517-432-1562 | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 19:00:57 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:57:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Hamstra To: redhat-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Applixware for real? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Sheldon E. Newhouse wrote: > Mark Hamstra writes: > > > > > IMO, Applixware makes Linux a desktop OS, there is no reason for me to go > > > back (except for CAD). > > > > Aauuuugh! > > > > I'm working as hard as I can on this one, but people dismissing Linux for CAD > > work out-of-hand is *really* frustrating! > > > > If you qualify for academic licensing, Linux will be about your best option for > > CAD (on any platform) before the end of this year with the release of the next > > edition of the MicroStation Academic Suite. > > > > If you do not qualify for academic licensing and would like to use MicroStation > > on Linux in a commercial environment, you need to go to > > http://www.bentley.com/products/change-request.html and make your desires known. > > Bentley has nothing against supporting Linux commercially, but it ain't going > > to happen until enough people express a desire for full commercial support. > > > > With the combination of MicroStation and Applixware, there would be little to > > no reason why you couldn't run a complete design office on nothing but Linux. > > > > Mark Hamstra > > Bentley Systems, Inc. > > What about image processing? One of the main frustrations I still have > is that we still have to use Photoshop to maneuver figures for various > kinds of designs. Gimp just doesn't do it yet, and it does not seem > that xv has the same capabilities. Actually, I just starting fooling > around with xv, so I may change my mind later, but that is my current > opinion. If an office needs to scan in two images, cut a part of one > image with a drawing tool, change colors, smooth and dither, paste it > into the other image, then, Photoshop is the only thing I know which > will presently do this. > > Maybe GIMP will be there in a year or so, but it doesn't cut it > now. Can these things be done with the present tools (Applixware, > MicroStation, etc. ) available for Linux? Hmmm... mathematicians playing around with image processing; what will they think of next. Seriously, I thought only those of us who were crazy enough to switch from Math to Architecture saw any need to put AMS TeX, Mathematica, and the Gimp on the same machine ;-) Anyway... I don't see what your problem is with the Gimp: all of the operations you listed are easily done with the Gimp --well, with the exception of scanning, but you can do that with scan-xv (or is it xv-scan? --I always forget...). There are still somethings that Photoshop can do and the Gimp can't, but the Gimp is already remarkably useful and getting more so. Mark Hamstra Bentley Systems, Inc. -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 20:35:17 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 13:42:22 -0400 From: "Sheldon E. Newhouse" To: redhat-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Applixware for real? Status: RO X-Status: Mark Hamstra writes: > > > On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Sheldon E. Newhouse wrote: > > > Mark Hamstra writes: > > > > > > > IMO, Applixware makes Linux a desktop OS, there is no reason for me to go > > > > back (except for CAD). > > > > > > Aauuuugh! > > > > > > I'm working as hard as I can on this one, but people dismissing Linux for CAD > > > work out-of-hand is *really* frustrating! > > > > > > If you qualify for academic licensing, Linux will be about your best option for > > > CAD (on any platform) before the end of this year with the release of the next > > > edition of the MicroStation Academic Suite. > > > > > > If you do not qualify for academic licensing and would like to use MicroStation > > > on Linux in a commercial environment, you need to go to > > > http://www.bentley.com/products/change-request.html and make your desires known. > > > Bentley has nothing against supporting Linux commercially, but it ain't going > > > to happen until enough people express a desire for full commercial support. > > > > > > With the combination of MicroStation and Applixware, there would be little to > > > no reason why you couldn't run a complete design office on nothing but Linux. > > > > > > Mark Hamstra > > > Bentley Systems, Inc. > > > > What about image processing? One of the main frustrations I still have > > is that we still have to use Photoshop to maneuver figures for various > > kinds of designs. Gimp just doesn't do it yet, and it does not seem > > that xv has the same capabilities. Actually, I just starting fooling > > around with xv, so I may change my mind later, but that is my current > > opinion. If an office needs to scan in two images, cut a part of one > > image with a drawing tool, change colors, smooth and dither, paste it > > into the other image, then, Photoshop is the only thing I know which > > will presently do this. > > > > Maybe GIMP will be there in a year or so, but it doesn't cut it > > now. Can these things be done with the present tools (Applixware, > > MicroStation, etc. ) available for Linux? > > Hmmm... mathematicians playing around with image processing; what will > they think of next. Seriously, I thought only those of us who were crazy > enough to switch from Math to Architecture saw any need to put AMS TeX, > Mathematica, and the Gimp on the same machine ;-) > > Anyway... I don't see what your problem is with the Gimp: all of the > operations you listed are easily done with the Gimp --well, with the > exception of scanning, but you can do that with scan-xv (or is it > xv-scan? --I always forget...). There are still somethings that Photoshop > can do and the Gimp can't, but the Gimp is already remarkably useful and > getting more so. Well, I will try again with the gimp and see what happens. As far as the 'same stuff on the same machine', we have to make presentations, too, frequently with parts of this computer generated picture to that one. Of more direct relevance to this thread are the following comment and question. One of the big problems one runs into is the availability of drivers for programs. For instance, do any of the non-MS available programs mentioned above support the HP Deskjet 660C Color printer? Other low-cost color printers? End of discussion relevant to this list. -sen Related issues for those who might be interested: This is a relevant to a general problem. In a business environment, one knows that new office hardware and software will be supported by Windows. It is lamentable, but one has to be very careful about what one buys and has rather limited choices if one wants to make sure that Linux supported. This brings up the standard problem with free and/or low-cost software. How does one insure the maintenance, longevity, widespread support, and continued enhancements of the product? This, of course, is not a subject for this list. But, it is a question I find interesting and hard to answer. Perhaps if there are those who want to follow this topic up, we should confine discussion of it to private e-mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Sheldon E. Newhouse | e-mail: sen1@math.msu.edu | | Mathematics Department | | | Michigan State University | telephone: 517-355-9684 | | E. Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA | FAX: 517-432-1562 | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 20:35:12 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 10:12:59 -0700 From: BORG MIME-Version: 1.0 To: redhat-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Applixware for real? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: Sheldon E. Newhouse wrote: ...... > > With the combination of MicroStation and Applixware, there would be little to > > no reason why you couldn't run a complete design office on nothing but Linux. > What about image processing? One of the main frustrations I still have Is a major frustration of mine as well. > is that we still have to use Photoshop to maneuver figures for various > kinds of designs. Gimp just doesn't do it yet, and it does not seem > that xv has the same capabilities. Actually, I just starting fooling There's XV version with scanner support, I think it's commercial and costs about $$50-100 or so. > around with xv, so I may change my mind later, but that is my current > opinion. If an office needs to scan in two images, cut a part of one > image with a drawing tool, change colors, smooth and dither, paste it > into the other image, then, Photoshop is the only thing I know which > will presently do this. > > Maybe GIMP will be there in a year or so, but it doesn't cut it > now. Can these things be done with the present tools (Applixware, > MicroStation, etc. ) available for Linux? I am thinking about buying CorelDraw for Linux from Caldera; it'll be around $500 but hasn't been annonced yet. I have already ordered Applix, so soon I'll get rid of damn Winblowz, which crash each time I drag an image file from File Exploder into Photopaint. Why is it so stupid? My fvwm95 at least simply ignores unappropriate drag and drops. -- *** #include ***** Good pings come in small packets ******** Vlad Petersen ********** ******************************** *** **** **** Linux: OS I can trust ***** ******** Vancouver, B.C. ******** ******************************** -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 20:35:34 1996 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 02:13:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Allen Francom To: redhat-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Applixware for real? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On the later part of this message Sheldon brings up what I consider to be one of the most important questions in business computing. What is effective business computing ? And how might you go about it ? I would like to be involved in a discussion on this topic whether or not it is private. I would like to suggest that this topic, and the lessons and wisdom that are sure to fall out of a discussion, should be public. Perhaps this list is not the right place, then again... Let me start by saying, business solutions are most effective when, rather than buying something off the shelf, you look at the requirements, immediate, and long term, and then design and implement the appropriate solution. (See where that gets us...) And for example, I am aware of many businesses that have nothing but dumb terminals and generic text printers, and they are quite profitable and successful. (Because they don't need Windows ?, Because they don't have Windows ?, Because they designed the right solution to their exact problem ? ) I like "All of the above"... THX -AEF On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Sheldon E. Newhouse wrote: > Mark Hamstra writes: > > > > > > On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Sheldon E. Newhouse wrote: > > > > > Mark Hamstra writes: > > > > > > > > > IMO, Applixware makes Linux a desktop OS, there is no reason for me to go > > > > > back (except for CAD). > > > > > > > > Aauuuugh! > > > > > > > > I'm working as hard as I can on this one, but people dismissing Linux for CAD > > > > work out-of-hand is *really* frustrating! > > > > > > > > If you qualify for academic licensing, Linux will be about your best option for > > > > CAD (on any platform) before the end of this year with the release of the next > > > > edition of the MicroStation Academic Suite. > > > > > > > > If you do not qualify for academic licensing and would like to use MicroStation > > > > on Linux in a commercial environment, you need to go to > > > > http://www.bentley.com/products/change-request.html and make your desires known. > > > > Bentley has nothing against supporting Linux commercially, but it ain't going > > > > to happen until enough people express a desire for full commercial support. > > > > > > > > With the combination of MicroStation and Applixware, there would be little to > > > > no reason why you couldn't run a complete design office on nothing but Linux. > > > > > > > > Mark Hamstra > > > > Bentley Systems, Inc. > > > > > > What about image processing? One of the main frustrations I still have > > > is that we still have to use Photoshop to maneuver figures for various > > > kinds of designs. Gimp just doesn't do it yet, and it does not seem > > > that xv has the same capabilities. Actually, I just starting fooling > > > around with xv, so I may change my mind later, but that is my current > > > opinion. If an office needs to scan in two images, cut a part of one > > > image with a drawing tool, change colors, smooth and dither, paste it > > > into the other image, then, Photoshop is the only thing I know which > > > will presently do this. > > > > > > Maybe GIMP will be there in a year or so, but it doesn't cut it > > > now. Can these things be done with the present tools (Applixware, > > > MicroStation, etc. ) available for Linux? > > > > Hmmm... mathematicians playing around with image processing; what will > > they think of next. Seriously, I thought only those of us who were crazy > > enough to switch from Math to Architecture saw any need to put AMS TeX, > > Mathematica, and the Gimp on the same machine ;-) > > > > Anyway... I don't see what your problem is with the Gimp: all of the > > operations you listed are easily done with the Gimp --well, with the > > exception of scanning, but you can do that with scan-xv (or is it > > xv-scan? --I always forget...). There are still somethings that Photoshop > > can do and the Gimp can't, but the Gimp is already remarkably useful and > > getting more so. > Well, I will try again with the gimp and see what happens. As far as the > 'same stuff on the same machine', we have to make presentations, too, > frequently with parts of this computer generated picture to that one. > > Of more direct relevance to this thread are the following comment and > question. > > One of the big problems one runs into is the availability of drivers for > programs. For instance, do any of the non-MS available programs mentioned > above support the HP Deskjet 660C Color printer? Other low-cost color > printers? > > End of discussion relevant to this list. > > -sen > > > Related issues for those who might be interested: > > This is a relevant to a general problem. In a business environment, > one knows that new office hardware and software will be supported by > Windows. It is lamentable, but one has to be very careful about what > one buys and has rather limited choices if one wants to make sure that > Linux supported. > > This brings up the standard problem with free and/or low-cost software. > How does one insure the maintenance, longevity, widespread support, and > continued enhancements of the product? This, of course, is not a > subject for this list. But, it is a question I find interesting and > hard to answer. Perhaps if there are those who want to follow this > topic up, we should confine discussion of it to private e-mail. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Sheldon E. Newhouse | e-mail: sen1@math.msu.edu | > | Mathematics Department | | > | Michigan State University | telephone: 517-355-9684 | > | E. Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA | FAX: 517-432-1562 | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! > ________________________________________________________________________ > http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO > http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null > -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 21:01:01 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:54:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Hamstra To: redhat-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Applixware for real? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Allen Francom wrote: > > On the later part of this message Sheldon brings up what I consider to be > one of the most important questions in business computing. What is > effective business computing ? And how might you go about it ? > > I would like to be involved in a discussion on this topic whether or not > it is private. > > I would like to suggest that this topic, and the lessons and wisdom that > are sure to fall out of a discussion, should be public. Perhaps this list > is not the right place, then again... I'm not sure if it is the right place either, but this is a subject that this Red Hat user is interested in, so I'll blab on until someone tells me to shut up. > Let me start by saying, business solutions are most effective when, > rather than buying something off the shelf, you look at the requirements, > immediate, and long term, and then design and implement the appropriate > solution. (See where that gets us...) > > And for example, I am aware of many businesses that have nothing but dumb > terminals and generic text printers, and they are quite profitable and > successful. (Because they don't need Windows ?, Because they don't have > Windows ?, Because they designed the right solution to their exact > problem ? ) This is one of the most significant underappreciated facts of business computing: A solution that does just what you want and nothing more (with the exception of providing a flexible future expansion path) is often a much more productive and affordable solution than a 'more powerful/state-of-the-art' solution. Aside from productivity issues related to employees surfing the net during business hours and 'Mac-dinking' instead of generating real output, the biggest problem with complete Windows-based PCs on every desktop is the mind boggling support and administrative costs associated with this setup. If you can get the job done with dumb terminals and a couple of centralized servers, then by all means do so: you'll save enormous amounts of time and money over the long haul. Similarly, if you can get the job done with X terminals or PCs converted to Linux-based X terminals, do it: not only will you save money on initial hardware and software purchase costs, but you will also save long term on administrative costs, see potentially better performance than the 'Windows on every desktop' approach, and have much better options for future expansions as your needs change. Many of the same issues that are driving the push toward simple Network Computers at the personal level also apply to business computing. Stated quite simply and bluntly: Windows PCs on everydesktop is not an optimal solution. Mark Hamstra Bentley Systems, Inc. -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 21:00:58 1996 To: redhat-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Applixware for real? Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Alan Shutko Date: 13 Oct 1996 13:39:27 -0500 Status: RO X-Status: >>>>> "SEN" == Sheldon E Newhouse writes: SEN> This brings up the standard problem with free and/or low-cost SEN> software. How does one insure the maintenance, longevity, SEN> widespread support, and continued enhancements of the product? This may be the strongest point in favor of free (ie, source available) software. You _cannot_ ensure that a company will continue to maintain, support, etc software. Many people have been stuck when a company ceased to support software which they depend on. On the other hand if you have source, you can maintain it yourself or pay someone else to do so (ie, Cygnus). It then ceases to be "no-cost" software, but it is still free in terms of licensing and source. SEN> Perhaps if there are those who want to follow this topic up, we SEN> should confine discussion of it to private e-mail. I would suggest moving it to gnu.misc.discuss. -- Alan Shutko - The Few, the Proud, the Remaining. Sit In: When you sit down to stand up for your rights... -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Sun Oct 13 22:01:09 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 11:50:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Dwight Johnson To: Allen Francom Subject: Sheldon's topics (was Re: Applixware for real? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Allen Francom wrote: > > On the later part of this message Sheldon brings up what I consider to be > one of the most important questions in business computing. What is > effective business computing ? And how might you go about it ? > > I would like to be involved in a discussion on this topic whether or not > it is private. I propose that someone with an online server volunteer to host a mailing list to discuss questions like Sheldon's. I would join it. But I think everyone would agree, Red Hat List is already too busy to take on an extra load. -- PLEASE read the Red Hat FAQ, Tips, HOWTO and the MAILING LIST ARCHIVES! ________________________________________________________________________ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-FAQ http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-HOWTO http://www.redhat.com/RedHat-Tips http://www.redhat.com/mailing-lists ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe: mail -s unsubscribe redhat-list-request@redhat.com < /dev/null From popmail Mon Oct 14 00:50:45 1996 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:09:09 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: business-computing@lege.com Subject: Have set up experimental mailing list to handle Sheldon's topics (was Re: Applixware for real?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Initially, the people that commented to Mitchell Leben's original mail, and Mitchell Leben himself, and me, are added. This list is experimental, if there is too much work with it, adding of new users may be discontinued. So please, wait a few days to announce it's existence to RedHat list, until I've decided that it works as expected, and until I've discussed it's existence with Mark David McCreary, owner of the host it is running on. (I don't expect the present members to be removed except if You ask to be removed, though.) expn business-computing@lege.com 250- < 250- 250- 250- 250- 250- 250- 250- 250- 250 For the benefit of Mark, I add selected pieces of the mails on this subject so far... Holler if You want to be added to the list! From: Mitchell Leben OK, I am a bit of a skeptic. Can Applixware really replace MSOffice? [Has a long wish list.] From: "David R. McGown" Yes. [Answers Yes to every item on long wish list.] From: "Sheldon E. Newhouse" One of the big problems one runs into is the availability of drivers for programs. For instance, do any of the non-MS available programs mentioned above support the HP Deskjet 660C Color printer? Other low-cost color printers? End of discussion relevant to this list. Related issues for those who might be interested: This is a relevant to a general problem. In a business environment, one knows that new office hardware and software will be supported by Windows. It is lamentable, but one has to be very careful about what one buys and has rather limited choices if one wants to make sure that Linux supported. This brings up the standard problem with free and/or low-cost software. How does one insure the maintenance, longevity, widespread support, and continued enhancements of the product? This, of course, is not a subject for this list. But, it is a question I find interesting and hard to answer. Perhaps if there are those who want to follow this topic up, we should confine discussion of it to private e-mail. From: BORG I am thinking about buying CorelDraw for Linux from Caldera; it'll be around $500 but hasn't been annonced yet. I have already ordered Applix, so soon I'll get rid of damn Winblowz, which crash each time I drag an image file from File Exploder into Photopaint. Why is it so stupid? My fvwm95 at least simply ignores unappropriate drag and drops. From: Allen Francom On the later part of this message Sheldon brings up what I consider to be one of the most important questions in business computing. What is effective business computing ? And how might you go about it ? I would like to be involved in a discussion on this topic whether or not it is private. I would like to suggest that this topic, and the lessons and wisdom that are sure to fall out of a discussion, should be public. Perhaps this list is not the right place, then again... Let me start by saying, business solutions are most effective when, rather than buying something off the shelf, you look at the requirements, immediate, and long term, and then design and implement the appropriate solution. (See where that gets us...) And for example, I am aware of many businesses that have nothing but dumb terminals and generic text printers, and they are quite profitable and successful. (Because they don't need Windows ?, Because they don't have Windows ?, Because they designed the right solution to their exact problem ? ) I like "All of the above"... From: Mark Hamstra This is one of the most significant underappreciated facts of business computing: A solution that does just what you want and nothing more (with the exception of providing a flexible future expansion path) is often a much more productive and affordable solution than a 'more powerful/state-of-the-art' solution. Aside from productivity issues related to employees surfing the net during business hours and 'Mac-dinking' instead of generating real output, the biggest problem with complete Windows-based PCs on every desktop is the mind boggling support and administrative costs associated with this setup. If you can get the job done with dumb terminals and a couple of centralized servers, then by all means do so: you'll save enormous amounts of time and money over the long haul. Similarly, if you can get the job done with X terminals or PCs converted to Linux-based X terminals, do it: not only will you save money on initial hardware and software purchase costs, but you will also save long term on administrative costs, see potentially better performance than the 'Windows on every desktop' approach, and have much better options for future expansions as your needs change. Many of the same issues that are driving the push toward simple Network Computers at the personal level also apply to business computing. Stated quite simply and bluntly: Windows PCs on everydesktop is not an optimal solution. Mark Hamstra Bentley Systems, Inc. From: Alan Shutko This may be the strongest point in favor of free (ie, source available) software. You _cannot_ ensure that a company will continue to maintain, support, etc software. Many people have been stuck when a company ceased to support software which they depend on. On the other hand if you have source, you can maintain it yourself or pay someone else to do so (ie, Cygnus). It then ceases to be "no-cost" software, but it is still free in terms of licensing and source. From: Dwight Johnson I propose that someone with an online server volunteer to host a mailing list to discuss questions like Sheldon's. I would join it. But I think everyone would agree, Red Hat List is already too busy to take on an extra load. And that's about as far as I have received on the subject before setting this list up! Comments, anyone? -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Mon Oct 14 01:02:32 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:41:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Hamstra To: Leif Erlingsson Subject: Re: Have set up experimental mailing list to handle Sheldon's topics (was Re: Applixware for real?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > > Comments, anyone? Yeah, get Daniel Forsyth (forsyth@bserv.com) online. To my knowledge, he's doing about as much as anybody in actually implementing Linux business solutions. Mark Hamstra Bentley Systems, Inc. From popmail Mon Oct 14 01:02:33 1996 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 06:51:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Allen Francom To: leif@lege.com Subject: Did you get Robert Hart ? Re: Applixware for real? (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 08:27:05 +1000 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: Allen Francom Subject: Re: Applixware for real? On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Allen Francom wrote: > On the later part of this message Sheldon brings up what I consider to be > one of the most important questions in business computing. What is > effective business computing ? And how might you go about it ? > > I would like to be involved in a discussion on this topic whether or not > it is private. > > I would like to suggest that this topic, and the lessons and wisdom that > are sure to fall out of a discussion, should be public. Perhaps this list > is not the right place, then again... I agree that this is a very interesting topic for discussion. I would be prepared to fire up a majordomo list to cover this, but until my domain is up and delegated I can't do that. I anticipate that this will take about two weeks...any more rapid solutions? > Let me start by saying, business solutions are most effective when, > rather than buying something off the shelf, you look at the requirements, > immediate, and long term, and then design and implement the appropriate > solution. (See where that gets us...) Hmmm - I would have to say 'that depends'. I would certainly agree that looking at requirements (immediate and long term) is essential. A part of this must be to produce sufficient requirement for flexibility in the end product. This then leads to a selection process that surveys the available commercial apps and looks at the costs of an 'in-house' application. An important issue to determine is the stability/maturity of the business/industry. A mature/stable business can afford to invest more in a tailored solution as change will not be rapid. I am not so sure that an insistence on in-house production is essential. Customisation of a commercial application should always be considered. This becomes more important if the organisation is small and has few if any internal IT/IS people to support the application(s). > And for example, I am aware of many businesses that have nothing but dumb > terminals and generic text printers, and they are quite profitable and > successful. (Because they don't need Windows ?, Because they don't have > Windows ?, Because they designed the right solution to their exact > problem ? ) Again, it depends. Change can be forced on one from outside as a result of the requirements of clients and/or suppliers for example even if the industry in which the organisation works is mature and stable. Another major source of change is competition and government action! A rapidly changing industry (and it is probably correct to classify all service industries as rapidly changing since they are - or should be - heavily customer driven) also needs to be careful about tying itself to closely to a custom application. If the application development cost is high, there will be an internal need to keep using it until it is 'paid for' - irrespective of the application's 'fitness to purpose'. Customising commercial apps (or just using commercial apps straight out of the box) must be an option here. Flexibility is important - and the 80/20 rule definitely applies! Robert Hart iweft@ipax.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Consultancy Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Mon Oct 14 01:02:33 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 18:38:21 -0400 From: "Sheldon E. Newhouse" To: Leif Erlingsson Subject: Have set up experimental mailing list to handle Sheldon's topics (was Re: Applixware for real?) Status: RO X-Status: Leif Erlingsson writes: > > Initially, the people that commented to Mitchell Leben's original mail, > and Mitchell Leben himself, and me, are added. This list is experimental, > if there is too much work with it, adding of new users may be > discontinued. So please, wait a few days to announce it's existence to > RedHat list, until I've decided that it works as expected, and until I've > discussed it's existence with Mark David McCreary, owner of the host it is > running on. (I don't expect the present members to be removed except if > You ask to be removed, though.) Thanks very much for setting up this list. I had thought these kinds of questions could go to comp.os.linux.advocacy, but that list is too full of flamers and flame-baiters. -Sheldon From popmail Mon Oct 14 01:21:33 1996 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 06:58:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Allen Francom To: business-computing@lege.com Subject: Greetings ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Figured I try this out before going home tonight. One quick thought, someone mentioned about it being a good idea for businesses to provide their source code to everything, as per GPL... Yes - For the reasons you mentioned, it makes it possible to fix without the world comming to an end just because one software company decided to quit supporting something, or went out of business. No - Because a business needs to have some proprietary stuff even if it is for a prescribed length of time, afterwich the source may be made available. It would be difficult at best for companies and products that rely on tricky cool code to have to publish their secrets right away... Maybe there's a compromize in here somewhere. Perhaps all source should be registered somewhere in case someone really needs it and the parent company can't or won't support it ? ISO, for example, put the squeeze on Microsoft saying that they wouldn't let their 32 bit stuff into their domain unless the API was made public and thus transportable... (Or something like that...Help ?) THX -AEF From popmail Mon Oct 14 01:21:34 1996 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 15:46:57 -0700 From: BORG MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Hamstra Subject: Re: Have set up experimental mailing list to handle Sheldon's topics (was Re: Applixware for real?) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: Mark Hamstra wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > > > > > Comments, anyone? > > Yeah, get Daniel Forsyth (forsyth@bserv.com) online. To my knowledge, > he's doing about as much as anybody in actually implementing Linux > business solutions. > > Mark Hamstra > Bentley Systems, Inc. Hi guys, I think you should announce your list in comp.os.linux.announce and comp.os.linux.advocacy groups. You can also remove me from the list of the recipients since I really get so so much email that I delete half of it without reading anyway. :) Sorry for mailing you all, I am just confused who's the owner of the new list. Thank you, -- *** #include ***** Good pings come in small packets ******** Vlad Petersen ********** ******************************** *** **** **** Linux: OS I can trust ***** ******** Vancouver, B.C. ******** ******************************** From popmail Mon Oct 14 01:38:19 1996 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 01:20:49 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Mark Hamstra Subject: Re: Have set up experimental mailing list to handle Sheldon's topics (was Re: Applixware for real?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Mark Hamstra wrote: > On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > > > > > Comments, anyone? > > Yeah, get Daniel Forsyth (forsyth@bserv.com) online. To my knowledge, > he's doing about as much as anybody in actually implementing Linux > business solutions. > > Mark Hamstra > Bentley Systems, Inc. I added both Daniel Forsyth (forsyth@bserv.com) and Mark David McCreary to business-computing@lege.com ... The recipient list (with another add-on also) now is... leif@lege.com djohnson@olympus.net ats@wydo125.wustl.edu mhamstra@sullivan.bentley.com afrancom@numedics.transport.com vladimip@iceonline.com sen1@math.msu.edu djb@redhat.com yoshua@eskimo.com dmcgown@access.digex.net mitch@smithphoto.com hartr@archenland.interweft.com.au forsyth@bserv.com mdm@internet-tools.com Am signing off for tonight, and new requests are for the time being handled manually, so You'll have to wait till tomorrow to get new names added... ;-) But this list will be a great opportunity for me to try out some of the list management software, so sooner or later.... if Mark will let us keep using his computer for this list.... (lets hope it doesn't get TOO big :-) -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Mon Oct 14 18:55:59 1996 To: Leif Erlingsson Subject: Re: Have set up experimental mailing list to handle Sheldon's topics (was Re: Applixware for real?) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:53:47 -0400 From: Donnie Barnes Status: RO X-Status: >I added both Daniel Forsyth (forsyth@bserv.com) and Mark David McCreary > to business-computing@lege.com ... > >The recipient list (with another add-on also) now is... > >leif@lege.com >djohnson@olympus.net >ats@wydo125.wustl.edu >mhamstra@sullivan.bentley.com >afrancom@numedics.transport.com >vladimip@iceonline.com >sen1@math.msu.edu >djb@redhat.com >yoshua@eskimo.com >dmcgown@access.digex.net >mitch@smithphoto.com >hartr@archenland.interweft.com.au >forsyth@bserv.com >mdm@internet-tools.com > > >Am signing off for tonight, and new requests are for the time being >handled manually, so You'll have to wait till tomorrow to get new names >added... ;-) > >But this list will be a great opportunity for me to try out some of the >list management software, so sooner or later.... if Mark will let us >keep using his computer for this list.... (lets hope it doesn't get TOO >big :-) Hello, boing! I asked to be removed from the list and I'd like it done tonight. I didn't ask to be on the list, and it's considered *very* bad form to add someone to a mailing list when they did not ask to be added. So, please remove me now or I'll just procmail it /dev/null. --Donnie -- Donnie Barnes http://www.redhat.com/~djb "Bah." djb@redhat.com http://www.turner.com/lazarusman/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _Things You'd NEVER Expect A Southerner To Say_ by Vic Henley: ** I hate the long version of ``Free Bird''. From popmail Mon Oct 14 22:02:30 1996 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:59:59 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: business-computing@lege.com Subject: Re: Have set up experimental mailing list to handle Sheldon's topics (was Re: Applixware for real?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Status: RO X-Status: While I'm very sorry that Donnie Barnes took offense, I'd like to point out that he was already deleted from the list when he wrote this heated E-Mail. Again, I'm sorry that he took offense. As for his argument, considering that only the people that actually had alreday participated in the debate was added, is he right? Is it bad form to create a list of ten people participating in a debate and give them the opportunity to stay or go? -- Leif PS: I've responded to some of Donnie's concerns, and added a few comments of my own ... it looks like he managed to make me dig up some past offensive behavior of the RedHat company, that I thought I had forgotten. :-) On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Donnie Barnes wrote: > >Am signing off for tonight, and new requests are for the time being > >handled manually, so You'll have to wait till tomorrow to get new names > >added... ;-) > > Hello, boing! I asked to be removed from the list and I'd like it > done tonight. I didn't ask to be on the list, and it's considered > *very* bad form to add someone to a mailing list when they did not > ask to be added. Note that the above was written YESTERDAY night! If Donnie Barnes had looked more closely in his mail before sending this mail to the list, he would have noted the very nicely worded mail about him being removed from the list. I am beginning to wonder if I want to take the abuse it seems to generate to be running a list... Maybe I should just discontinue the list here and now, lets have a vote!..... [ ] Continue Mail-To: owner-business-computing@lege.com [ ] DISCONTINUE > So, please remove me now or I'll just procmail it /dev/null. [I should probably have quit writing here, but being a person who never learns from his mistakes, I'll include the below also... I shouldn't have let Donnie's mail get to me, but I guess I did...] Oh, so he is using procmail after all, like I suggested in my E-Mail to him! Sometimes I wonder if redhat people have a habit of procmailing all their mail to /dev/null. I have written an E-Mail to SALES at RedHat with questions and comments related to Business Computing, and have never heard from them, except in an autogenerated response. Personally, I don't consider RedHat a serious company. (Am afraid it blew my top to receive an auto-responder response when writing to SALES. I took deep offense at that. I consider auto-generated replies to E-Mail, or any mail for that matter, to be very bad manners. It will prevent at least this person from ever buying another RedHat CD! Since when is it normal that the SALES department of a company that wants customers refuse to read their in-mail? That would indicate a company that doesn't want any customers. Wonder why they don't want customers?) [Hey, I have a great idea: Lets all of us set up auto-responders to all incoming mail, and throw all mail in /dev/null! Great, we have now defeated the whole purpouse with Internet/E-Mail - to make communication easier!] Just to give an example, I'll include that E-Mail ... that RedHat only responded to by an Auto Responder. That forced me to E-Mail to their FAX machine, and they didn't even respond to that... See below my .sig: -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:59:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Leif Erlingsson To: sales@redhat.com, Kent Paddock , info@netactive.com, Subject: Re: Hi all, I just had a chat with a Swedish Oracle representative, I wrote You all Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:39:12 on the subject "Hi all, I just had a chat with a Swedish Oracle representative," and related the reason there is no Oracle for Linux version. I received some additional info on the subject, and would appreciate Your comments! Thanks! (In particular, has there been discussions in this direction already, and what, in Your opinion, constitutes "the support and service for the plattform needed for both porting and using the system in a production environment", and how do You understand Oracle's interpretation of this sentence in relation to Linux?) -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:06:30 +0200 From: Bengt Eriksson To: leif@lege.com Cc: hberg@se.oracle.com Subject: Re: Assuming I'm running a real powerful OS like 64 bit Linux on Digital's Alpha Best Leif, your question regarding availiability of Oracle7 on Linux/Alpha reached me through Håkan Berg. Basically Oracle will support *any* plattform that is viable from a business perspective. That is there must be customer demand for Oracle rdbms and applications on the plattform in question that motivates the investment of porting to the plattform and there must be the support and service for the plattform needed for both porting and using the system in a production environment. Oracle7 is currently shipping on more than 80 different plattforms. But there has so far not been demonstrated a case that would motivate support for Linux. Regarding the Digital Alpha hardware we support Oracle7 on NT, OpenVMS and Digital Unix. kind regards Bengt Eriksson Product Marketing Manager Oracle Sweden From popmail Mon Oct 14 22:03:49 1996 To: Leif Erlingsson Subject: Re: Have set up experimental mailing list to handle Sheldon's topics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:31:29 -0400 From: Donnie Barnes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: RO X-Status: > While I'm very sorry that Donnie Barnes took offense, I'd like to point > out that he was already deleted from the list when he wrote this heated > E-Mail. Again, I'm sorry that he took offense. Look, this is getting blown way out of proportion. The mail you included below was also written *last night*. See the timestamps on it. The problem was our mailserver got choked on some things and it just got popped out today. I apologize for that. > As for his argument, considering that only the people that actually had > alreday participated in the debate was added, is he right? Is it bad form > to create a list of ten people participating in a debate and give them > the opportunity to stay or go? Well, *I* had never participated in that debate that I recall. Even so, it is bad form to add anyone to a mailing list that didn't ask to be. It's not that big of a deal, I was just pointing that out. I asked to be removed once, then kept getting mail from you. It ticked me off that you hadn't removed me and was sending mail to the list yourself, so I sent another mail. *Apparently* the mail server was choked on the both of them and you never got either until today. > PS: I've responded to some of Donnie's concerns, and added a few comments > of my own ... it looks like he managed to make me dig up some past > offensive behavior of the RedHat company, that I thought I had forgotten. > :-) Oh goody. > On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Donnie Barnes wrote: Notice the date above. > > >Am signing off for tonight, and new requests are for the time being > > >handled manually, so You'll have to wait till tomorrow to get new names > > >added... ;-) > > > > Hello, boing! I asked to be removed from the list and I'd like it > > done tonight. I didn't ask to be on the list, and it's considered > > *very* bad form to add someone to a mailing list when they did not > > ask to be added. > > > Note that the above was written YESTERDAY night! If Donnie Barnes had > looked more closely in his mail before sending this mail to the list, > he would have noted the very nicely worded mail about him being removed > from the list. My mail and yours were both written yesterday. You didn't remove me until today. Not a problem... > I am beginning to wonder if I want to take the abuse it seems to generate > to be running a list... Maybe I should just discontinue the list here and > now, lets have a vote!..... > > [ ] Continue Mail-To: > owner-business-computing@lege.com > [ ] DISCONTINUE Jeez, continue it already. I just don't have time to be a part. I *wish* I did, but I don't. There has to be a line. Sorry *I* have caused you so much grief. > > So, please remove me now or I'll just procmail it /dev/null. > > > [I should probably have quit writing here, but being a person who never > learns from his mistakes, I'll include the below also... I shouldn't > have let Donnie's mail get to me, but I guess I did...] > > Oh, so he is using procmail after all, like I suggested in my E-Mail to > him! Sometimes I wonder if redhat people have a habit of procmailing all I've been using procmail for almost a year now. What's the point? > their mail to /dev/null. I have written an E-Mail to SALES at RedHat with > questions and comments related to Business Computing, and have never > heard from them, except in an autogenerated response. Personally, I don't > consider RedHat a serious company. (Am afraid it blew my top to receive an > auto-responder response when writing to SALES. I took deep offense at that. > I consider auto-generated replies to E-Mail, or any mail for that matter, I'm sorry about that. There is no auto-responder on that account, though. The person reading the mail must have sent you a form response. It was read by a human and should have been responded to. > to be very bad manners. It will prevent at least this person from ever > buying another RedHat CD! Since when is it normal that the SALES department > of a company that wants customers refuse to read their in-mail? That would > indicate a company that doesn't want any customers. Wonder why they don't > want customers?) Huh? You can't win in this world...give it away, sell it too, and no one is happy. > [Hey, I have a great idea: Lets all of us set up auto-responders to all > incoming mail, and throw all mail in /dev/null! Great, we have now defeated > the whole purpouse with Internet/E-Mail - to make communication easier!] > > Just to give an example, I'll include that E-Mail ... that RedHat only > responded to by an Auto Responder. That forced me to E-Mail to their > FAX machine, and they didn't even respond to that... See below my .sig: Well, the problem here is that sales@redhat.com is read by a sales-drone who only knows how to take orders and answer basic questions. Mail like that should have been forwarded to someone. Sometimes things happen and communication breaks down...that must have been the case here. Look, you can turn this list into your own personal tirade if you wish. I apologize for annoying you with asking to be unsubscribed (twice). I also apologize for you being ignored by sales@. There isn't anything more *I* can do. --Donnie -- Donnie Barnes http://www.redhat.com/~djb "Bah." djb@redhat.com http://www.turner.com/lazarusman/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _Things You'd NEVER Expect A Southerner To Say_ by Vic Henley: ** Let's mow the lawn. From popmail Tue Oct 15 00:53:04 1996 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 17:44:40 -0400 (4”UU) From: "David R. McGown" To: Leif Erlingsson Subject: Re: Have set up experimental mailing list to handle Sheldon's topics (was Re: Applixware for real?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > > Initially, the people that commented to Mitchell Leben's original mail, > and Mitchell Leben himself, and me, are added. This list is experimental, > if there is too much work with it, adding of new users may be > discontinued. So please, wait a few days to announce it's existence to > RedHat list, until I've decided that it works as expected, and until I've > discussed it's existence with Mark David McCreary, owner of the host it is > running on. (I don't expect the present members to be removed except if > You ask to be removed, though.) > > > expn business-computing@lege.com > 250- < 250- > 250- > 250- > 250- > 250- > 250- > 250- > 250- > 250- > 250 > > Please take me off this list. Donnie Barnes is 100% right about the rudeness of being added to a mailing list without approval or explicit subscription. Getting pissed at RedHat because of a couple of auto-replies to e-mail obviously sent to the wrong address on your part surely isn't going to promote serious discussion on the topic the list is "supposed" to be about. In fact, RedHat's use of auto-replies to email is perfectly in order. It confirms that your message was received, instead of lost in the ether. You, sir, are totally out of line! Grow up, and get a life. David dmcgown@access.digex.net David R. McGown dmcgown@va.gibbscox.com -o-O-o- LINUX INSIDE! Home: (703)683-1599 206 Adams Ave ALPHA GENERATION! Work: (703)416-1240 Alexandria, VA 22301 From popmail Tue Oct 15 01:40:38 1996 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:22:59 +1000 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: business-computing@lege.com Subject: Testing my email address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Please ignore - I am testing to see if my address on this list is correct! Thanks Robert Hart iweft@ipax.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Consultancy Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Tue Oct 15 02:16:52 1996 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 01:39:31 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: business-computing@lege.com Subject: CALDERA® http://www.caldera.com/news/pr002.html MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Status: RO X-Status: PROVO, Utah Sept. 10, 1996 Caldera® Inc. today announced that it will openly distribute the source code for DOS via the Internet... ... Why Did Caldera Want DOS? Caldera's system software products are based on Linux technologies, including networking and Internet protocols, and other technologies common to UNIX®-based systems. Linux technologies include a DOS box, which allows end users to run DOS applications in Linux system software environments. >From the company's inception in October 1994, Caldera planned to license and integrate DOS with its Linux-based software products. These plans included the addition of Internet connectivity tools to DOS, enabling DOS to function as a light-weight, stand-alone client to the Internet, or to Linux when used as a workgroup server. By December 1996, Caldera will integrate DOS with the company's next versions of system software products, including the Caldera Network Desktop. By including DOS, Caldera will ease installation and improve compatibility for simultaneous use of DOS and Linux. Read the whole press Release. Also Read http://www.caldera.com/news/pr001.html http://www.pcweek.com/news/0722/24esuit.html http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,1925,00.html As well as Caldera® vs. Microsoft® Q/A... http://www.caldera.com/news/qa.html This makes very interesting reading! Especially: Caldera further seeks an order (1) requiring Microsoft to disclose to Caldera, for a period of 10 years, all Application Programming Interfaces (API's) for any operating system or enhancements that it produces at the time that such products are released for beta testing; and (2) prohibit Microsoft from including code in its operating system software for the purpose of creating real or perceived incompatibility between its products and Caldera's products. Caldera, Inc. vs. Microsoft Corporation... http://www.caldera.com/news/complaint.html -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Tue Oct 15 03:00:14 1996 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:15:57 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: business-computing@lege.com Subject: Abusive tone on this list -- partly my own fault. Should it be moderated? Who wants to do it? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Abusive tone on this list -- partly my own fault. Should it be moderated? Who wants to do it? My total inexperience with running mailing lists has made me make the bad mistake of talking back to members of the list. As a list maintainer I should keep a very low profile. I'll try my best in the future. Sorry for the abusive tone on this list, I just hate it. If things doesn't improve, I guess I'll just drop the list. But I have an announcement prepared for comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.announce and redhat-list@redhat.com just waiting for approval of the people I have quoted in it. So provided we all, especially myself, can be more civil to one another, and the announcement is approved, I expect some new members soon. Mark has OK'd the use of his computer for the list. Thanks Mark! -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Tue Oct 15 06:01:49 1996 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:30:24 +1000 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: Leif Erlingsson Subject: Re: Abusive tone on this list -- partly my own fault. Should it be moderated? Who wants to do it? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > > Abusive tone on this list -- partly my own fault. Should it be moderated? > Who wants to do it? I do not think that the 'abuse' you have recieved is justified. I am sure Donnie Barnes did not intend his posting to be abusive - he really isn't like that. It was more 'chiding' (and I think helpful to a novice list administrator - although the 'netiquette help' could possibly have been worded better. Red Hat staff are under a *huge* work load at present due to the roaring success of the Red Hat 4 release, and this may well have influenced the wording. > My total inexperience with running mailing lists has made me make the bad > mistake of talking back to members of the list. As a list maintainer I > should keep a very low profile. I'll try my best in the future. Sorry for > the abusive tone on this list, I just hate it. Don't worry - we all make mistakes - and learn from them, even if the experience can be unpleasant at the time. There is no reason to go inot major guilt mode about it. > If things doesn't improve, I guess I'll just drop the list. But I have an > announcement prepared for comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.announce > and redhat-list@redhat.com just waiting for approval of the people I > have quoted in it. So provided we all, especially myself, can be more > civil to one another, and the announcement is approved, I expect some new > members soon. Don't drop the list - I think this is a really useful adjunct to the Linux world (and IT/IS scene in general). For the announcement, why don't you email a copy of this to the list so we can have a look at it first - and maybe make a suggestion or two if we feel like it. Everyone has sense of humour failures from time to time - and email is so "right now" that it frequently happens people send a message without the time for mature reflection that comes with paper mail! > Mark has OK'd the use of his computer for the list. Thanks Mark! Great! Robert Hart iweft@ipax.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Consultancy Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Tue Oct 15 07:00:56 1996 Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 20:52:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Dwight Johnson To: business-computing@lege.com Subject: The List Name MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: I think 'business-computing' is too generic. I would like to see something like 'linux-biz' as the list name. Dwight Johnson djohnson@olympus.net From popmail Tue Oct 15 15:01:12 1996 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:08:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Hamstra To: Leif Erlingsson Subject: Re: Abusive tone on this list -- partly my own fault. Should it be moderated? Who wants to do it? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Leif Erlingsson wrote: > I have an > announcement prepared for comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.announce > and redhat-list@redhat.com just waiting for approval of the people I > have quoted in it. O.K. by me. Mark Hamstra Bentley Systems, Inc. From popmail Tue Oct 15 21:36:46 1996 Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 20:59:47 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Dwight Johnson Subject: Re: The List Name MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Dwight Johnson wrote: > I think 'business-computing' is too generic. I would like to see > something like 'linux-biz' as the list name. > > Dwight Johnson > djohnson@olympus.net Since noone seems to object, the list is from now named linux-biz@lege.com instead! The old name will continue to work in paralell for a short time. -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Tue Oct 15 23:08:22 1996 To: comp-os-linux-announce@sunic.sunet.se From: Leif Erlingsson Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.announce Subject: linux-biz@lege.com created (making Linux a viable business-computing OS) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:26:45 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: ----------- On making Linux a viable business-computing OS. ------------ A *small* mailing list has been created. It is not intended for backbiting or flames. The list is about making Linux a viable business-computing OS. Post to this address: linux-biz@lege.com Send requests here: linux-biz-request@lege.com To subscribe: Subject: subscribe xxxx@nnnn.mmm.ddd linux-biz@lege.com To unsubscribe: Subject: unsubscribe xxxx@nnnn.mmm.ddd linux-biz@lege.com Questions this lists intend to deal with or has dealt with include... * How does one insure the maintenance, longevity, widespread support, and continued enhancements of the product? * What is effective business computing ? And how might you go about it ? * Allen Francom says... Let me start by saying, business solutions are most effective when, rather than buying something off the shelf, you look at the requirements, immediate, and long term, and then design and implement the appropriate solution. (See where that gets us...) And for example, I am aware of many businesses that have nothing but dumb terminals and generic text printers, and they are quite profitable and successful. (Because they don't need Windows ?, Because they don't have Windows ?, Because they designed the right solution to their exact problem ? ) * Mark Hamstra says... This is one of the most significant underappreciated facts of business computing: A solution that does just what you want and nothing more (with the exception of providing a flexible future expansion path) is often a much more productive and affordable solution than a 'more powerful/state-of-the-art' solution. ... the biggest problem with complete Windows-based PCs on every desktop is the mind boggling support and administrative costs associated with this setup. If you can get the job done with dumb terminals and a couple of centralized servers, then by all means do so: you'll save enormous amounts of time and money over the long haul. Similarly, if you can get the job done with X terminals or PCs converted to Linux-based X terminals, do it: not only will you save money on initial hardware and software purchase costs, but you will also save long term on administrative costs, see potentially better performance than the 'Windows on every desktop' approach, and have much better options for future expansions as your needs change. Many of the same issues that are driving the push toward simple Network Computers at the personal level also apply to business computing. Stated quite simply and bluntly: Windows PCs on everydesktop is not an optimal solution. * Alan Shutko says... This may be the strongest point in favor of free (ie, source available) software. You _cannot_ ensure that a company will continue to maintain, support, etc software. Many people have been stuck when a company ceased to support software which they depend on. On the other hand if you have source, you can maintain it yourself or pay someone else to do so (ie, Cygnus). It then ceases to be "no-cost" software, but it is still free in terms of licensing and source. This list was born off the RedHat list, but is *not* confined to any particular flavor of Linux. -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Tue Oct 15 23:08:25 1996 Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.announce Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:26:45 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson Subject: linux-biz@lege.com created (making Linux a viable business-computing OS) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: ----------- On making Linux a viable business-computing OS. ------------ A *small* mailing list has been created. It is not intended for backbiting or flames. The list is about making Linux a viable business-computing OS. Post to this address: linux-biz@lege.com Send requests here: linux-biz-request@lege.com To subscribe: Subject: subscribe xxxx@nnnn.mmm.ddd linux-biz@lege.com To unsubscribe: Subject: unsubscribe xxxx@nnnn.mmm.ddd linux-biz@lege.com Questions this lists intend to deal with or has dealt with include... * How does one insure the maintenance, longevity, widespread support, and continued enhancements of the product? * What is effective business computing ? And how might you go about it ? * Allen Francom says... Let me start by saying, business solutions are most effective when, rather than buying something off the shelf, you look at the requirements, immediate, and long term, and then design and implement the appropriate solution. (See where that gets us...) And for example, I am aware of many businesses that have nothing but dumb terminals and generic text printers, and they are quite profitable and successful. (Because they don't need Windows ?, Because they don't have Windows ?, Because they designed the right solution to their exact problem ? ) * Mark Hamstra says... This is one of the most significant underappreciated facts of business computing: A solution that does just what you want and nothing more (with the exception of providing a flexible future expansion path) is often a much more productive and affordable solution than a 'more powerful/state-of-the-art' solution. ... the biggest problem with complete Windows-based PCs on every desktop is the mind boggling support and administrative costs associated with this setup. If you can get the job done with dumb terminals and a couple of centralized servers, then by all means do so: you'll save enormous amounts of time and money over the long haul. Similarly, if you can get the job done with X terminals or PCs converted to Linux-based X terminals, do it: not only will you save money on initial hardware and software purchase costs, but you will also save long term on administrative costs, see potentially better performance than the 'Windows on every desktop' approach, and have much better options for future expansions as your needs change. Many of the same issues that are driving the push toward simple Network Computers at the personal level also apply to business computing. Stated quite simply and bluntly: Windows PCs on everydesktop is not an optimal solution. * Alan Shutko says... This may be the strongest point in favor of free (ie, source available) software. You _cannot_ ensure that a company will continue to maintain, support, etc software. Many people have been stuck when a company ceased to support software which they depend on. On the other hand if you have source, you can maintain it yourself or pay someone else to do so (ie, Cygnus). It then ceases to be "no-cost" software, but it is still free in terms of licensing and source. This list was born off the RedHat list, but is *not* confined to any particular flavor of Linux. -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Wed Oct 16 13:01:44 1996 From: Pat.Boswell-Saul@psc.co.uk Date: Wed, 16 Oct 96 09:28:52 To: Leif Erlingsson Subject: Re: linux-biz@lege.com created (making Linux a viable busine Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for the information. Avalan is looking seriously at LINUX applications so these comments are interesting for us. Pat ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: linux-biz@lege.com created (making Linux a viable business-c Author: ,Leif Erlingsson cc: redhat.com!redhat-list, lege.com!linux-biz at Internet Date: 16/10/96 04:34 **ERROR** LONG FROM FIELD. FIELD WAS CUT. OLD FIELD WAS: Leif Erlingsson cc: redhat.com!redhat-list, lege.com!linux-biz Subject: linux-biz@lege.com created (making Linux a viable business-computing OS) ----------- On making Linux a viable business-computing OS. ------------ A *small* mailing list has been created. It is not intended for backbiting or flames. The list is about making Linux a viable business-computing OS. Post to this address: linux-biz@lege.com Send requests here: linux-biz-request@lege.com To subscribe: Subject: subscribe xxxx@nnnn.mmm.ddd linux-biz@lege.com To unsubscribe: Subject: unsubscribe xxxx@nnnn.mmm.ddd linux-biz@lege.com Questions this lists intend to deal with or has dealt with include... * How does one insure the maintenance, longevity, widespread support, and continued enhancements of the product? * What is effective business computing ? And how might you go about it ? * Allen Francom says... Let me start by saying, business solutions are most effective when, rather than buying something off the shelf, you look at the requirements, immediate, and long term, and then design and implement the appropriate solution. (See where that gets us...) And for example, I am aware of many businesses that have nothing but dumb terminals and generic text printers, and they are quite profitable and successful. (Because they don't need Windows ?, Because they don't have Windows ?, Because they designed the right solution to their exact problem ? ) * Mark Hamstra says... This is one of the most significant underappreciated facts of business computing: A solution that does just what you want and nothing more (with the exception of providing a flexible future expansion path) is often a much more productive and affordable solution than a 'more powerful/state-of-the-art' solution. ... the biggest problem with complete Windows-based PCs on every desktop is the mind boggling support and administrative costs associated with this setup. If you can get the job done with dumb terminals and a couple of centralized servers, then by all means do so: you'll save enormous amounts of time and money over the long haul. Similarly, if you can get the job done with X terminals or PCs converted to Linux-based X terminals, do it: not only will you save money on initial hardware and software purchase costs, but you will also save long term on administrative costs, see potentially better performance than the 'Windows on every desktop' approach, and have much better options for future expansions as your needs change. Many of the same issues that are driving the push toward simple Network Computers at the personal level also apply to business computing. Stated quite simply and bluntly: Windows PCs on everydesktop is not an optimal solution. * Alan Shutko says... This may be the strongest point in favor of free (ie, source available) software. You _cannot_ ensure that a company will continue to maintain, support, etc software. Many people have been stuck when a company ceased to support software which they depend on. On the other hand if you have source, you can maintain it yourself or pay someone else to do so (ie, Cygnus). It then ceases to be "no-cost" software, but it is still free in terms of licensing and source. This list was born off the RedHat list, but is *not* confined to any particular flavor of Linux. -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Thu Oct 17 00:23:10 1996 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:05:29 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Welcome 29 new subscribers! Now 41 total. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Among the people subscribing, I've recognised companies like Signum Support of Sweden (Linux support), Qualcomm, Mentor Graphics Corp. and PC Online, to name a few. You are all very welcome. It is my desire -- and yours, I trust -- that this little but growing group of Entrepreneurial Engineers inside or outside of larger companies and organizations will be able to "meet" and exchange powerful ideas and share Entrepreneurial Engineering experiences, ideas and make fruit-bearing contacts across the continents. This very list is an example of such a fruit-bearing contacts across the continents! I run the list from Stockholm, Sweden, but it is run off a computer in Houston, Texas that I have helped set up for the owner... ... over the Internet, from my home Linux system, with the powerful tools that gives me. Mark, the owner of the computer in Houston, and I have not even ever met in the flesh! It is my hope that the list will further more of that kind of contacts among it's subscribers! She's all Yours, people! Let's start really using this channel for what it's intended for! ... 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, Go! -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 PS: Anyone want a copy of the most interesting mails already posted? ... contact me for a tar.gz archive of the complete list, including the thread that became the list from redhat-list. From popmail Thu Oct 17 07:01:02 1996 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:23:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business Subject: Hello MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: This list has grown out of discussions which popped up from time to time on the Red Hat List and needed a venue focused on business subjects. My name is Dwight Johnson. I live on the Olympic Peninsula of Washington State in the US on two acres out in the farms near Sequim, population 4,000. I have been in computers since 1967 and a renegade from industry since 1974. After early experience as a systems programmer, I spent many years writing business and educational applications. During the eighties, I founded and operated an educational software company called The Home School and single-handedly with my family wrote, published and sold six products into the educational market. I learned an enormous amount about business and the dynamics of business this way. I am now beginning my third career in computers--on the internet. I am currently working for a local internet service provider. I have been a Linux enthusiast since April 1996 and a Red Hat user since July 1996. I was formerly locked into DOS/Windows since 1984. In my lifetime, I am 54, I have never seen a business opportunity like the combination of Linux, GNU software and the internet. For a number of years it has been clear to me that the advance of civilization is directly proportional to the total aggregate of communication that takes place between people. The open sharing of computer source code is certain to produce in a short time more and better products than can be produced using the current proprietary development model of industry. In fact, we are already seeing the fruits--and this is just the beginning as more and more people comprehend the vision. The opportunities to improve our lives from these better products and the attendant opportunities to produce wealth and well-being for millions with support and add-on services staggers the mind. I hope the discussions we have on the linux-biz list will help to provide a framework within which these potentials find their most positive development. Our most cogent challenge will be to bring software developers into the circle of prosperity that they are creating. Back when I was making products for the marketplace, I made certain that I had strong copy protection on the release diskettes. Only much later did it come home to me that I would have prospered better if I had given more products away. Hoarding is a natural human impulse borne out of fear that something is going to be taken away from us. Almost always, fear leads us away from the most optimal solution--away from win-win where each person's effort becomes a multiplier toward a common goal. For years, I pondered what might be the meaning of Jesus' miracle of the loaves and fishes. Then it struck me that the miracle was that sharing and giving are contagious. When each person hoarded his little store, there was scarcity and want. Giving out the loaves and fishes which Jesus had became a catalyst for everyone else to do the same. The result was abundance. I see the opportunities we have with Linux and GNU the same way. Matthew 15:32-38 Then Jesus called his disciples to him and said, "I have compassion on the crowd, because they have been with me now three days, and have nothing to eat; and I am unwilling to send them away hungry, lest they faint on the way. "And the disciples said to him, "Where are we to get bread enough in the desert to feed so great a crowd?" And Jesus said to them, "How many loaves have you?" They said, "Seven, and a few small fish." And commanding the crowd to sit down on the ground, he took the seven loaves and the fish, and having given thanks he broke them and gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. And they all ate and were satisfied; and they took up seven baskets full of the broken pieces left over. Those who ate were four thousand men, besides women and children. Dwight Johnson djohnson@olympus.net From popmail Thu Oct 17 08:01:08 1996 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:01:07 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: "Daniel W. Forsyth" Subject: Re: CAD Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for the mail -- unfortunately it was sent to the -request address, so it never reached the list proper. I am Cc'ing this reply to the list itself. Thanks! On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Daniel W. Forsyth wrote: > We have reciently acquired a client interested in LiNUX and CAD. Does > anyone have some good LiNUX CAD packages availible, at this moment. The > client is an interior decorator/designer. Thank-You. > > PS: I'm very appriciative of this list, it is a step in the right > direction for LiNUX, as (we belive) the best market for LiNUX is the > business community, but we will have to get organized to provide for the > needs of business. > > Dataforge would like to thank the creator and it's members. > > Daniel W. Forsyth > V.P. Dataforge Canada > > -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Thu Oct 17 18:02:30 1996 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:41:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Hamstra To: Leif Erlingsson Subject: Re: CAD Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: > > On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Daniel W. Forsyth wrote: > > > We have reciently acquired a client interested in LiNUX and CAD. Does > > anyone have some good LiNUX CAD packages availible, at this moment. The > > client is an interior decorator/designer. Thank-You. I know Daniel is already aware of this, but some of the rest of the list subscribers may not be, so I'll try to spread the word a little further. I have been employed by Bentley Systems, Inc. to port our MicroStation CAD package to Linux. This port is complete and directly comparable to MicroStation on our other supported platforms: Bentley works very hard to minimize platform differences in all our software. The only problem with this port from a business computing standpoint is that it is not scheduled to be available under commercial licensing. Since Bentley has not been able to confirm (to this point) a sufficient number of would-be commercial MicroStation/Linux users to cover the enormous certification and support costs associated with our industry leading customer satisfaction, the Linux port is currently only planned to be available as part of the next edition of the MicroStation Academic Suite. This academic-only licensing works out just fine for all those who qualify, but if you could make use of commercial licenses of MicroStation on Linux, then you need to contact http://www.bentley.com/products/change-request.html. If a sufficient number of sincere requests for commercial licensing are made to this site, then MicroStation (and eventually other Bentley products) will be fully supported by Bentley. Mark Hamstra Bentley Systems, Inc. From popmail Thu Oct 17 18:03:08 1996 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:00:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Hamstra To: Robert Hart Subject: Re: CAD Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Robert Hart wrote: > On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Mark Hamstra wrote: > > > The only problem with this port from a business computing standpoint is > > that it is not scheduled to be available under commercial licensing. > > Since Bentley has not been able to confirm (to this point) a sufficient > > number of would-be commercial MicroStation/Linux users to cover the > > enormous certification and support costs associated with our industry > > leading customer satisfaction, the Linux port is currently only planned to > > be available as part of the next edition of the MicroStation Academic > > Suite. > > This illustrates a significant "chicken and egg" issue with commercial > software on Linux. > > It is quite understandable that software houses are loathe to invest > 'significant' resources in porting and certifying a product to a platform > from which there is currently little demand for their product. > > However, this also denies the reality that the availability of good > software is a major factor in increasing the number of installations of a > platform. > > As an ex (aeronautical) engineer and user of CAD, it is my impression > that Linux and X windows would make an exceptional CAD and numerical > fluid mechanic analysis platform. Agreed: the Linux port of MicroStation shows better overall performance than NT 4.0 on exactly the same hardware. > The availability of a package with the cachet of MicroStation would > provide a significant marketing tool to organisations such as mine > dealing with clients that are seeking solution. > > Linux is still very much the 'new kid on the block' in terms of > workstation use in a commercial environment. It needs commercial workstation > applications to provide the push to convince the 'suit brigade' that it > is commercial strength. > > Until there are enough well known workstation applications to provide a > range of workstation solutions (CAD, word processing, spread sheeting > graphics manipulation/drawing etc), Linux will, I fear, continue to > provide an excellent server system but remain largely unised as a > workstation - where there is very significant potential. > > When I was an IS Manager, I would have dearly loved to put Linux/X on our > desktops. The decrease in support costs would have been significant as > users could no longer 'play' with settings that ended up crashing the > system (or have apps that crashed the system regularly)! In addition, > most of the management, maintenance and upgrading would hve been done across > the network. Unfortunately, the lack of applications prevented me... > > I would urge organisations like Bentley Systems to reconsider their > attitude to Linux. Perhaps the costs associated should be seen as an > investment to open a large potential market... It ain't going to happen that way. The Bentley brothers are still pained enough by the Macintosh balance sheets that they won't make such a 'market investment' again. > Robert Hart iweft@ipax.com.au > Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 > InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia > IT, data and voice networking Consultancy > Strategic IT business planning > Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration > > From popmail Thu Oct 17 19:01:43 1996 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:14:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Allen Francom To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: GREETINGS, LINUX-BIZ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: I haven't been receiving any postings, so I figured that I'd take a shot, see if it is working, and if so, see if I can help get things rolling. How about an Introduction ? I am Allen Francom with NuMedics, Inc. We are producing a client/server system for Telemedicine, specifically Diabetes Health Care. We are a startup company and we've been designing and developing for a little over two years now. Linux is our host 'server' platform because it is not very expensive, and is very flexible. Our client applications rely on ZModem encapsulated transfers of packets that are in Email form. Average phone calls from the client to the host take about 2 minutes. We've avoided network protocols so far because it would take control of the communications session away from the applications and give it to the operating system (Thus opening a big costly can of worms) Our client systems are written in Borland's Delphi for Windows, and in addition to our own custom designed reporting modules, we rely generically upon Crystal Reports and their freely distributable run-time. We've co-located our host with an ISP to take advantage of their modem pool, and thus with no modems of our own, we can handle perhaps 50 to 100 simultaneous callers with one x86 host. In order to make use of Linux for business purposes I have had to really learn Linux over the past 2 years, HOWEVER, I've only commissioned two C/C++ programs, plus less than 30 Perl and Expect scripts. Linux is performing nicely for us in a business role very nearly "Out of the Box". Technical/Business issues we are facing right now include: - Secure ODBC links to client applications when we begin to make PPP connections instead of TTY/Zmodem. - Secure sockets from custom client and custom server apps - Batch/Interactive processing of Visa/MC as it pertains to the applications, their registration and service subscriptions - Selecting an appropriate, scalable, and platform independant SQL RDBMS. (Looking at Empress, and Solid) - What accounting systems can you run on Linux ? Should you ? Java wasn't really happening at the time we started out, and we don't know enough about it to know if it will work, and if so just exactly where it would fit in. It is conceivable that our client apps can be turned into Java - I don't think applets would do the trick, however - and thus our client applications can be made at least somewhat platform independant. Right now, our task is to polish a version 1.5, and start marketing in earnest. ( Since we don't appear to have a focus, I figured I'd share this, perhaps others have similar profiles, and then maybe we can decide where to go that would get us all the most benefit ? ) THX, and I look forward to hearing from you. -AEF From popmail Thu Oct 17 20:53:49 1996 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:25:56 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Robert Hart Subject: Re: Announcement--email a copy of this to the list... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Robert Hart wrote: > For the announcement, why don't > you email a copy of this to the list so we can have a look at it first - > and maybe make a suggestion or two if we feel like it. Ouups! Must have missed that sentence, or forgot about it ... hope there aren't any hurt feelings? Tell You what, DO comment on the announcement I made, and I will update it before reposting in a week or two! Thanks! > Robert Hart iweft@ipax.com.au > Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 > InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia > IT, data and voice networking Consultancy > Strategic IT business planning > Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration -- Leif Erlingsson http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1998 +46 8 604-0995 Stockholm, Sweden, Tellus, Milky Way, Gods Universe. FAX +46 8 605-2551 From popmail Fri Oct 18 06:43:26 1996 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 07:39:12 +1000 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: Mark Hamstra Subject: Re: CAD Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Mark Hamstra wrote: > > As an ex (aeronautical) engineer and user of CAD, it is my impression > > that Linux and X windows would make an exceptional CAD and numerical > > fluid mechanic analysis platform. > > Agreed: the Linux port of MicroStation shows better overall performance > than NT 4.0 on exactly the same hardware. That surprises me not one iota! I have NT on what used to be a Linux box (486DX/4-120 here... > It ain't going to happen that way. The Bentley brothers are still pained > enough by the Macintosh balance sheets that they won't make such a 'market > investment' again. I can understand that - I think it is unfortunate, but I can certainly understand it. Robert Hart iweft@ipax.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Consultancy Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Fri Oct 18 06:44:01 1996 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:26:31 +0000 From: "Eric L. Green" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Greetings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: Well, since everyone is introducing themselves... My name is Eric Green, and I am the chief systems specialist for Executive Consultants, a vendor of K-12 educational administration systems. That is, we supply a complete value-added computer solution to common educational administration packages (we don't sell no stinkin' shrink-wrap :-). I am also the person who ported our package, Principal's & Administrator's Management System, to Linux. We are running the SCO Unix version of the database engine we'd been using. It required a re-compile of our code, and our beta testers also found a lot of OS-specific stuff in our code. The biggest plusses: Speed (much faster than SCO Unix on the same hardware) Networking. Cost. The biggest minusses: Dumb terminal oriented multiport cards not available (just modem-oriented ones for ISP's). TTY-oriented administration tools, especially printer administration tools. A reliable user-friendly backup program. We are running Redhat's version of Linux. We approached Caldera, but they showed little interest in working with a solutions provider. Besides, my tests of their software showed that it did not give us any advantages over plain old RedHat (since we don't do windows -- school hardware will barely support Windows 3.1, much less X-Windows). The biggest gripe I've had so far is with Redhat's arbitrary change in the "shutdown" program between Release 3.03 and Release 4.0. Our clients never see the raw operating system. They see a custom "Systems Utilities" menu which contains a bunch of shell and perl scripts that I wrote to automate tasks. Now "Shutdown" doesn't work on that menu. That's not much of a problem now -- I'll just install 3.03 on client systems -- but as the hardware world moves on, it WILL be a problem since of course the 1.2.13 kernel won't ever support PnP etc. Sort of like the problem we have with the old Xenix systems we have out in the field, where the tape drives are wearing out and there are no more replacements... ----- Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net From popmail Fri Oct 18 18:02:42 1996 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:30:45 -0700 From: Gaylon Vorwaller MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Hart Subject: Re: CAD Packages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: I am a Linux newbie, but my brother develops CAD under Sun Solaris, and has ported it with great success to Linux. He has dealers worldwide, including one in Stockholm: Cadsystem AB, Box 7103, 191 07 Sollentuna Tel 08-626-8860 info@cadsystem.se http://www.algonet.se/-cadsys His internet site is http://www.vx.com Robert Hart wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Mark Hamstra wrote: > > > > As an ex (aeronautical) engineer and user of CAD, it is my impression > > > that Linux and X windows would make an exceptional CAD and numerical > > > fluid mechanic analysis platform. > > > > Agreed: the Linux port of MicroStation shows better overall performance > > than NT 4.0 on exactly the same hardware. > > That surprises me not one iota! I have NT on what used to be a Linux box > (486DX/4-120 here... > > > > It ain't going to happen that way. The Bentley brothers are still pained > > enough by the Macintosh balance sheets that they won't make such a 'market > > investment' again. > > I can understand that - I think it is unfortunate, but I can certainly > understand it. > > Robert Hart iweft@ipax.com.au > Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 > InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia > IT, data and voice networking Consultancy > Strategic IT business planning > Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Fri Oct 18 21:02:49 1996 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:26:37 +0000 From: "Eric L. Green" MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: Greetings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: Eric L. Green wrote: Allen Francom wrote: > > Side note to linux-biz... > > Dumb Terminal MultiPort cards not supported ? > > Without looking at it in more detail, I would have to say "Woa !" > Err, I didn't say dumb terminals are not supported. I simply said that dumb-terminal-oriented serial cards are not available. There's a difference. I can attach a dumb terminal to a Cyclades. I have done that, in fact. But there are features missing that I have becoe accustomed to in the SCO Unix world. For example, in the SCO Unix> world I can go into lpadmin and configure a printer to go to /dev/xlps04 (for Computone Intelliport II). Presto, everythig sent to printer "princprinter" is printed out to the printer hooked to the back of the dumb terminal in the principal's office. So I just set the PRINTER variable in the "princ" login's .profile to go to that printer and presto, the principal can print out things in his lap. Now, granted, such capabilities are not state of the art like network printers etc. are, and aren't going to be as important in the future as they are now. But right now we can take a school that can only afford two computers and put them a computer and six dumb terminals. That means we can put access to a kid's complete grades, attendance, etc. on every counsellor's and every disciplinarian's and every administrator's desk, as vs. the situation where they have to ask the secretary to print out the kid's records and hope the secretary isn't busy enrolling a kid, checking out a kid, etc.... All of this is a function of the drivers that come with the multiport card, of course. The point is that the vendors of multiport cards for Linux are marketing to ISP's who are going to attach modems to them. By contrast, many of the old traditional SCO vendors are marketing to VAR's attaching dumb terminals. The differences are in the device drivers. ISP's are interested in running high baud rates with low CPU usage. VARS are interested in running dumb terminals with the least hassle possible. Thus, for example, a Cyclades comes ready to attach modems to at 115kbaud, wired so that you can do a straight-through cable between the board and a modem. An Intelliport II comes ready to attach terminals to, wired so that you can do a straight-through cable between the board and a dumb terminal. In the future this won't be as important, especially with the push to get a computer onto each teacher's desk. For right now, it's a minor but important hassle -- the principal can no longer print out the kid's discipline history on his desk, he has to print it out on the secretary's printer in the office and have her bring it in to him. -- Eric Lee Green exec@prysm.net Executive Consultants From popmail Sat Oct 19 02:00:20 1996 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:40:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr." To: Dwight Johnson Subject: Re: Hello MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: Thank you for your inputs Dwight, I want to know WHAT WILL IT TAKE insofar as Linux OS and Linux Apps (such as X), that will *force* Microsoft to give up on their own proprietary Operating Systems, port all their stuff under Linux, and divert their OS programmers into some really useful apps? Best Regards, Joe Hartmann Tel: (603) 863 6073 email: joeh@sugar-river.net home-page: http://www.sugar-river.net/~joeh ------------------------------------------------------------- First Student at the: Linux Academy in the Sunshine Town of Newport, NH Happy GPL and all that! ------------- I grant this to the public domain ------------- On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Dwight Johnson wrote: > This list has grown out of discussions which popped up from time > to time on the Red Hat List and needed a venue focused on > business subjects. > > My name is Dwight Johnson. I live on the Olympic Peninsula of > Washington State in the US on two acres out in the farms near > Sequim, population 4,000. I have been in computers since 1967 and > a renegade from industry since 1974. After early experience as a > systems programmer, I spent many years writing business and > educational applications. During the eighties, I founded and > operated an educational software company called The Home School > and single-handedly with my family wrote, published and sold > six products into the educational market. I learned an enormous > amount about business and the dynamics of business this way. I am > now beginning my third career in computers--on the internet. I > am currently working for a local internet service provider. I > have been a Linux enthusiast since April 1996 and a Red Hat user > since July 1996. I was formerly locked into DOS/Windows since > 1984. > > In my lifetime, I am 54, I have never seen a business opportunity > like the combination of Linux, GNU software and the internet. For > a number of years it has been clear to me that the advance of > civilization is directly proportional to the total aggregate of > communication that takes place between people. > > The open sharing of computer source code is certain to produce > in a short time more and better products than can be produced > using the current proprietary development model of industry. In > fact, we are already seeing the fruits--and this is just the > beginning as more and more people comprehend the vision. > > The opportunities to improve our lives from these better products and > the attendant opportunities to produce wealth and well-being for > millions with support and add-on services staggers the mind. > > I hope the discussions we have on the linux-biz list will help to > provide a framework within which these potentials find their most > positive development. Our most cogent challenge will be to bring > software developers into the circle of prosperity that they are > creating. > > Back when I was making products for the marketplace, I made > certain that I had strong copy protection on the release > diskettes. Only much later did it come home to me that I would > have prospered better if I had given more products away. > > Hoarding is a natural human impulse borne out of fear that > something is going to be taken away from us. Almost always, fear > leads us away from the most optimal solution--away from win-win > where each person's effort becomes a multiplier toward a common > goal. > > For years, I pondered what might be the meaning of Jesus' miracle > of the loaves and fishes. Then it struck me that the miracle was > that sharing and giving are contagious. When each person hoarded > his little store, there was scarcity and want. Giving out > the loaves and fishes which Jesus had became a catalyst for everyone > else to do the same. The result was abundance. > > I see the opportunities we have with Linux and GNU the same way. > > Matthew 15:32-38 > Then Jesus called his disciples to him and said, "I have > compassion on the crowd, because they have been with me now three > days, and have nothing to eat; and I am unwilling to send them > away hungry, lest they faint on the way. "And the disciples said > to him, "Where are we to get bread enough in the desert to feed > so great a crowd?" And Jesus said to them, "How many loaves have > you?" They said, "Seven, and a few small fish." And commanding > the crowd to sit down on the ground, he took the seven loaves and > the fish, and having given thanks he broke them and gave them to > the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the crowds. And > they all ate and were satisfied; and they took up seven baskets > full of the broken pieces left over. Those who ate were four > thousand men, besides women and children. > > Dwight Johnson > djohnson@olympus.net > > From popmail Sat Oct 19 02:00:42 1996 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:20:25 +1000 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: Gaylon Vorwaller Subject: Re: CAD Packages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Gaylon Vorwaller wrote: > I am a Linux newbie, but my brother develops CAD under Sun Solaris, > and has ported it with great success to Linux. He has dealers > worldwide, including one in Stockholm: > > Cadsystem AB, Box 7103, 191 07 > Sollentuna Tel 08-626-8860 > info@cadsystem.se > http://www.algonet.se/-cadsys > > His internet site is http://www.vx.com Thanks for the info. I have just had a look at the web site and can't find any mention of Linux on the pages... Is the Linux port publicly available? Robert Hart iweft@ipax.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Consultancy Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Sat Oct 19 02:00:59 1996 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:10:00 +1000 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: "Eric L. Green" Subject: Re: Greetings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Eric L. Green wrote: > There's a difference. I can attach a dumb terminal to a Cyclades. I > have > done that, in fact. But there are features missing that I have becoe > accustomed to in the SCO Unix world. For example, in the SCO Unix> > world I can go into lpadmin and configure a printer to go to > /dev/xlps04 (for Computone Intelliport II). Presto, everythig sent > to printer "princprinter" is printed out to the printer hooked to the > back of the dumb terminal in the principal's office. So I just set > the PRINTER variable in the "princ" login's .profile to go to that > printer and presto, the principal can print out things in his lap. Hmmm I am not sure you are right about this. Back where I last worked (As Manager IS - and this is only 4 weeks ago, so it's quite recent), we were using a Prime MIPS box (sigh - don't ask) running Prime MIPS Unix, PI/Open (I told you, don't ask :-). This thing has an several ISA bus slots. In this thing, we had a Stallion multiport serial card (ISA) to handle printers and dumb terminals. To this we connected Wyse 50's and DEC VT420's and for both of these we had no problem in getting the attached printer to work. Now, looking at (Australian) prices, (and I find it hard to believe that things are that different in the US) a new DEC VT420 cost over $500, but you ca pick up an old 386 for $500 or less (100MB hard disk, 4MB RAM). Why not put a minimal Linux install on an old but serviceable 386 on each desk that you wanted a terminal, put in a cheap 8 port UTP hub and then attach your printers to the Linux boxes? With Linux 2.0.x, you can even mount / by NFS and just use the local hard disk for swap. Not only would you have a really cheap system, but the school would have a much more functional system. If people did not want to learn X, they have multiple terminals (consoles), something you don't get with many terminals! Thoughts? Robert Hart iweft@ipax.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Consultancy Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Sat Oct 19 02:01:07 1996 Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:24:42 +1000 (EST) From: Robert Hart To: "Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr." Subject: Re: Hello MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr. wrote: > I want to know WHAT WILL IT TAKE insofar as Linux OS and Linux Apps (such > as X), that will *force* Microsoft to give up on their own proprietary > Operating Systems, port all their stuff under Linux, and divert their OS > programmers into some really useful apps? The day all pigs are checked, fueled and ready to fly.... Robert Hart iweft@ipax.com.au Voice: +61 (0)3 9735 3586 InterWeft, 35 Summit Road, Lilydale, Victoria 3140, Australia IT, data and voice networking Consultancy Strategic IT business planning Internet planning, implementation, security and configuration From popmail Sat Oct 19 02:01:09 1996 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:11:48 -0500 (CDT) From: David Nicol To: "Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr." Subject: spontaneous reccommendation from a satisfied subscriber Cc: Dwight Johnson , Linux-Business Status: RO X-Status: It will never happen. What is happening, is projects like wine "The Windows Emulator" that run win 31/95/NT code under linux, in an x-window. and also one that does the same with Macintosh binaries and the VBIX product, that lets you compile visual basic programs into linux x-windows applicatinos I know about thiese things from reading the Linux Journal, published by ssc.com --- just type "ssc" into the "go to:" control on your netscape browser Applications such as these will make the proprietary systems irrelevant. On 18-Oct-96 "Joseph L. Hartmann, Jr." wrote: >>Thank you for your inputs Dwight, > >I want to know WHAT WILL IT TAKE insofar as Linux OS and Linux Apps (such >as X), that will *force* Microsoft to give up on their own proprietary >Operating Systems, port all their stuff under Linux, and divert their OS >programmers into some really useful apps? > >Best Regards, > >Joe Hartmann Tel: (603) 863 6073 > email: joeh@sugar-river.net > home-page: http://www.sugar-river.net/~joeh >------------------------------------------------------------- >First Student at the: > > Linux Academy in the Sunshine Town of Newport, NH > >Happy GPL and all that! >------------- I grant this to the public domain ------------- > > > >On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Dwight Johnson wrote: > >> This list has grown out of discussions which popped up from time >> to time on the Red Hat List and needed a venue focused on >> business subjects. >> >> My name is Dwight Johnson. I live on the Olympic Peninsula of >> Washington State in the