From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Mar 8 09:38:40 2003 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 09:38:40 +0100 (MET) From: Mail System Internal Data Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA X-IMAP: 0974540374 0000000663 This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not a real message. It is created automatically by the mail system software. If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created with the data reset to initial values. From popmail Sat Jan 23 06:03:57 1999 Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:17:55 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Linux Business Discussion Group X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] FS Replication (fwd) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 A non-subscriber wrote this reply, that may be interesting: (Reply-To: "W.F. Konynenberg" ) ________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, Katrinebergsvagen 70, 146 50 Tullinge, Sweden TEL +46 8 778-5038, MOB +46 709 14-0631, URL http://www.lege.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:26:44 +0000 From: "W.F. Konynenberg" To: Chris Tyler Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] FS Replication X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list Hello, You may want to have a look at the CODA network file system, which is available in the standard 2.1/2.2 kernel. It provides facilities such as server replication, automatic reconstruction (say you lost a disk in a server: replace the disk and CODA will reconstruct the contents from the replica's, can probably be abused for snapshot backup), load distribution, etc, basically RAID5 on network server level... Another nice thing is that it allows disconnected operation. A client without network connection to the server can still operate from the on-disk cache maintained by the CODA client software. A replicated server, when severed from its peer(s), can, as far as I understand, continue operation, and will attempt resynchronization with the peers once the connection is restored. (All of this info from memory from my quick reading of some on-line CODA documents some time ago, so no warranty on this info...) I think this just about covers everything you asked for... One point to note though: the CODA server is a user-level process which maintains its filesystem in its own storage structure, and the files are thus only accessible through CODA (I think this is necessary to allow the CODA server to resynchronize after disconnected operation). You cannot export an existing UNIX filesystem directly to CODA, you will have to create a CODA filesystem, and copy the contents of the existing filesystem into it. CODA is a Carnegy Mellon follow-up project to the Andrew File System. -- W.F. Konynenberg ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Jan 24 12:01:13 1999 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:25:00 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Load balancing on Linux? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 Can anyone steer me toward some open-source Linux load balancing solutions? Thanks, Dwight -- http://linuxtoday.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Jan 24 22:01:16 1999 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:37:04 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Load balancing on Linux? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Dwight Johnson wrote: > Can anyone steer me toward some open-source Linux load balancing > solutions? In this case, I get to answer my own question. I found what I was looking for on Linas Vepstas' outstanding Enterprise Linux web pages: http://www.linas.org/linux/load.html The best open-source solution appears to be Eddie by Ericsson. We (Linux Today) had actually already published their release announcements and I had forgotten about it: http://linuxtoday.com/stories/1106.html http://linuxtoday.com/stories/1609.html Dwight -- http://linuxtoday.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Jan 24 23:13:04 1999 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:07:19 +1300 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Andrew McClure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [linux-biz] Linux Heads Toward Main Street X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 >LINUX HEADS TOWARD MAIN STREET >by Dave Murphy, member@itrain.org > >In the midst of growing Linux activity, Linux inventor Linus Torvalds plans >to announce Version 2.2.0 of the Linux kernel this coming week. >Version 2.2.0 features improvements in file systems, multiprocessing, and >security, as well as platform support for Sparc64, Alpha, and PowerPC. > >What's new with 2.2? Version 2.2.0 adds several features beyond >improved multiprocessor support that make Linux faster and more useful. > >Among the kernel improvements: > - Better support for RAID, arrays of hard disks that servers use to protect >data and speed disk access. > > - Better firewalls, the programs that protect internal networks from the >outside world. The new kernel makes Linux firewalls more powerful and >makes it easier to configure the firewall to do things like filter out >messages >coming from certain addresses. > > - Faster file access. Version 2.2.0 can store filenames in a high-speed cache >in memory, meaning that users won't have to wait for the computer to >retrieve the information off relatively slow hard disks. > > - More hardware support, particularly for high-speed connection equipment >such as Fibre Channel and Gigabit Ethernet. > > - Smoother memory management. Users won't notice as much lurching in >system speed as the computer moves data between its real memory and the >memory overflow on hard disks known as "swap files." > >Linux is quickly becoming a viable alternative to Microsoft's Windows NT >for corporate network services. Many advanced users already employ Linux >as a desktop operating system, and it's a potential competitor of Microsoft >Windows 98 as a desktop OS. > >I now use Red Hat Linux as a file and print server in one of the ITrain >offices. And we'll be installing Linux in our headquarters office to >supplement our currently-installed NetWare file servers. Although we use >state-of-the-art hardware with at least 128MB of RAM and 8.6GB or larger >disk drives, Linux runs just fine on a 386 box with 16-32MB of RAM and a >gigabyte or so of disk space. > >The Linux OS requires only a few hundred megabytes of disk space, the rest >of the disk space is used for file storage, swap files, and printing services. > >If you're in the IT business and you haven't tested Linux yet, get with it. >It's >the future of IT network services, and it's a snap to install and learn. I >suggest buying Red Hat Linux at beyond.com -- for about $35 what have >you got to lose? Sure you can download the software for free, but Red >Hat's manuals are easy to read and walk you through the installation in less >than 30 minutes. > >And don't let the cheap price fool you; Linux is a great networking OS. > >Red Hat: http://www.redhat.com/ >Linux Online: http://www.linux.org/ > >This article is posted to http://itrain.org/itinfo/it990123.html > > >Live well, do good, > >--Dave Murphy > >p.s. don't forget the ITINFO subscriber's survey at >http://itrain.org/itinfo/subscribe.html > >-------------------- > >The ITINFO newsletter is again accepting sponsors. >Each edition is is distributed via email and permanently >posted on the itrain.org website. > >Sponsorship details are posted at http://itrain.org/itinfo/ad.html > >---------- > >ITINFO is an electronic publication of >ITrain, the International Association of Information >Technology Trainers. Comments and submissions >to info@itrain.org. > >Previous issues are online at http://itrain.org/itinfo/ > >---------- > >To unsubscribe, email majordomo@itrain.org with a >1-line body: > UNSUBSCRIBE ITINFO email_address >[substituting the email address you subscribed to the list] > >Do not send subscription messages to any other address; >your request will not be processed. > >---------- > >We encourage you to copy this issue in its entirety >and share it with your friends and coworkers. > >Copyright (C) 1999, ITrain, All Rights Reserved > > > _____________________________________ Andrew McClure Software Engineer - Wellington NZ Phone +64 4 479 2002 Mobile +64 21 671 117 _____________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Jan 26 18:01:56 1999 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:20:39 -0500 (EST) From: "Sean E. Millichamp" To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Project Planning Software for Linux? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 19 Hello everyone, My company needs to begin implementation of a project planning package at the request of one of our clients. Our client suggested a Windows based package but I'm leery of using a Windows based package since most networked Windows software seems to just use file sharing and giving them access to our Samba server is not something I'm keen on. Also, I'm on a quest to slowly eliminate all dependency on Windows software from our network so I can put Linux everywhere :) This is exactly what my boss wrote to me: --- OK I require a project monitoring package, reasonably priced, which will run under LINUX. Tell me what, and where do I procure this package and I will use a LINUX version. REQMTS: 1) Must work for both use from the client and our site. 2) Must have a hard copy reporting capability. 3) Does not need to support detail such as vacation time, sick time etc,. 4) Needs to be fairly easy to implement and use. --- I would add that it should probably have at least a web interface since we can't currently make all of our machines run Linux and I know the client won't. But I would expect any good package today to have a web based interface anyway. A Java client would work too. I searched a number of various Linux pages and I really couldn't find any reference to software that fit the bill... I figured if such a beast existed this list would know where to look :) Thanks for the help. Best, Sean ------------------------------------------ Sean E. Millichamp, Consultant Ingematics - A Division of Compu-Aid, Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Jan 26 18:02:52 1999 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:27:09 -0800 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sean@compu-aid.com CC: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Project Planning Software for Linux? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 20 Sean E. Millichamp wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > My company needs to begin implementation of a project planning package at > the request of one of our clients. Our client suggested a Windows based > package but I'm leery of using a Windows based package since most > networked Windows software seems to just use file sharing and giving them > access to our Samba server is not something I'm keen on. Also, I'm on a > quest to slowly eliminate all dependency on Windows software from our > network so I can put Linux everywhere :) > > This is exactly what my boss wrote to me: > > --- > OK I require a project monitoring package, reasonably priced, which will > run under LINUX. Tell me what, and where do I procure this package and I > will use a LINUX version. > > REQMTS: > > 1) Must work for both use from the client and our site. > 2) Must have a hard copy reporting capability. > 3) Does not need to support detail such as vacation time, sick time etc,. > 4) Needs to be fairly easy to implement and use. > --- > > I would add that it should probably have at least a web interface since we > can't currently make all of our machines run Linux and I know the client > won't. But I would expect any good package today to have a web based > interface anyway. A Java client would work too. > > I searched a number of various Linux pages and I really couldn't find any > reference to software that fit the bill... I figured if such a beast > existed this list would know where to look :) > > Thanks for the help. > > Best, > Sean > > ------------------------------------------ > Sean E. Millichamp, Consultant > Ingematics - A Division of Compu-Aid, Inc. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe A trip to http://www.linuxapps.com and a search one keywords project and planning rounded up several items to choose from. There is some chaff to go through, but project planning software is there. -- Regards, Bradley J. Willson d.b.a. Willson Consulting Services http://www.ifixcomputers.com A+ Authorized Service Center From popmail Tue Jan 26 18:11:06 1999 From: "Cary O'Brien" To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:48:05 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Oracle Client Libraries? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 How can I get oracle client libraries (specifically oratcl) for Linux. I know I can get Oracle 8 for Linux, but it's $1300! Can I buy one copy and redistribute the libraries? -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Jan 27 20:01:15 1999 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:38:27 -0800 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux Business List , Linux User List Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------310F8BB6185984EF71CB9564" Subject: [linux-biz] [Fwd: NTools E-NewsFlash - PROTECT YOUR COMPANY CROWN JEWELS] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------310F8BB6185984EF71CB9564 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI - Something that applies to all of us, in practice anyway. -- Regards, Bradley J. Willson d.b.a. Willson Consulting Services http://www.ifixcomputers.com A+ Authorized Service Center --------------310F8BB6185984EF71CB9564 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="nsmail36AF5D2101601BE" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="nsmail36AF5D2101601BE" Received: by animal.blarg.net (mbox cpu) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Wed Jan 27 01:00:29 1999) X-From_: bounce-nt-list-245551@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Tue Jan 26 19:34:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: from poseidon.sunbelt-software.com (poseidon.sunbelt-software.com [207.90.4.68]) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA32756 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:34:02 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:35:29 Subject: NTools E-NewsFlash - PROTECT YOUR COMPANY CROWN JEWELS To: "Latest Win NT News" From: nt-list-admin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-To: comments@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Message-Id: Precedence: bulk MIME-Version: 1.0 ************************************************************** NTools E-NewsFlash - PROTECT YOUR COMPANY CROWN JEWELS ************************************************************** * IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT TO PREVENT DOWNTIME (and spend 5 minutes reading my damage report ) When we opened the Sunbelt Office in the USA five years ago, I did not know that Tampa Bay has a certain reputation. It is called the "Lightning Capital" of the World. In my innocence I assumed this referred to a hockey or football team. I was wrong and soon helped out of my dream. A unique atmospheric configuration gets us sunshine 95% of the days in the year, but also very regular thunderstorms. During the season it hits pretty much at the end of almost every day. Statistically our area gets more lightning hits per year than any other place on the planet. It's tens of thousands! Anybody buying an electrical appliance costing more than about twenty bucks also buys a surge protector for that TV, radio or computer. That is no luxury but a must. I was once again confronted with this phenomenon last weekend. On a particularly dark Saturday night the sky was crackling with lightning and it was thundering right above our heads. We experienced at least 8 brownouts in 30 minutes. I was wondering what the damage in the office would be. One of our Techs went in on Sunday and found the following: - Two ports on our brand new 100Mb switch were dead - 3 NIC's fried - The network was down - One board in our voice mail system burned out - One 8-port hub in a suite down the hall was fried And all that despite the fact we religiously protect all our machines as good as we can. We had spares for almost everything (except the switch) and after four hours of work on Sunday every- thing was back up again. But what if the storm would have hit on Tuesday morning 10am? I'm sure you understand where I'm getting at: DOWNTIME. In a small office like ours with about 35 computers and 25 staff we calculated the downtime cost. It's a thousand bucks -per hour- when Sunbelt USA sits on its hands waiting for the network or server to come back up. And that is peanuts really. Mission critical (web) servers can cost thousands -per minute- if they are down. So, you need to protect the "Crown Jewels" of your company and guarantee your users access to that data. The costs of this is relatively unimportant. You_cannot_afford_NOT_to_do_it. The tool you choose to prevent downtime has to be the most reliable and efficient. That is -really- the priority. I sent you this NewsFlash because there is a new version of a tool that we think is the best in the market to do just that. This product is called Double-Take and the new V3.0 features are making it the industry leader with I think a year's advantage over any other tool out there. For new subscribers: Sunbelt has no vested interests in any particular product. We can basically sell what we want. So what we do is pick the "Best of Breed" tools in each category so that you can integrate those in your environment. So, what is special about the new V3.0 of Double-Take? The developers have been in this business for quite a while, first for Novell and since '96 for NT as well. Double-Take is used by the three leading disaster recovery companies in the world. They implement Double-Take on the systems of their customers to get data off site to protect it. NEW: MULTI PLATFORM Early 1998 the developers took a hard look at the market and found what was needed and wanted in the future. You told them that you needed a whole slew of features, and that you also needed it multi-platform. The code at that time was not really ready for that. They decided to bite the bullet and rewrite a good chunk apart from the patented algorithms that had proved to work great. Having seen most of these tools, I can tell you that Double-Take V3.0 is everything you ever wanted in a Fault Tolerance utility. They really did a great job providing the features and flexibility, combined with an excellent and efficient architecture. It is a great solution that allows you to get data from one machine to one or more other systems and fail over when your source machine dies for whatever reason. You can now mirror data from NT to Solaris and back. Netware soon to follow. One console for all platforms, nice & easy. It combines great with Convoy Cluster Software too. NOTE: From my perspective Double-Take is the NEW MARKET LEADER. HIGHLY EFFICIENT ARCHITECTURE Let me give you a simple example why I think Double-Take has solved the problem smarter than some others. For instance the data that goes from one server to another can be handled in different ways. On the source side, Double-Take filters data before it goes to disk, sends it over the wire and writes it on the disk of the target machine just a tiny bit later than data gets written to the disk of your source machine. Data gets only written once on the source and once on the target in the Double-Take scenario. Now, let's look how for instance Octopus does it: On the source, data gets written to the file, but also to a log file on the source. Then the data gets transported over the wire, and written to a log file on the target. >From that log file on the target it gets written to the mirror-file. Result? Data gets written 4 times costing twice as many resources. You want to keep those resources available for your users on mission critical servers. There are crucial differences in the architecture of these products. We have created a detailed grid with a competitive analysis and I suggest you study that carefully. Print it out in landscape and spend 10 minutes comparing the features. You will see why Double-Take V3.0 is technically the most advanced product: High efficiency, requiring the least resources. Here is the grid, but there is more! http://www.sunbelt-software.com/dt_competitive_compar.htm FREE RESOURCE PLANNING TOOL One more highly interesting technical breakthrough you will get with this new version is the free Resource Planning Tool. It will allow you to install Double-Take (without a second server!) and actually SEE how much bandwidth you are going to need to get data off that machine. Very useful to say the least. Replication can occur in the following configurations: - One-to-One, Active/Standby (the target does nothing) - One-to-One, Active/Active (the target is also source) - Many-to-One - One-to-Many - Chained (A to B to C) - Single Machine (replicate data c:\ to d:\) HIGHLIGHT OF THE FEATURES - Strong scripting features with Double-Take Control Language - Full Function Command line and Text Client Interfaces - Replication from Solaris to NT and back (Novell later '99) - Connection Wizard that makes life -very- easy - Detailed Statistics about the process - You can backup open files on the target machine - Support for Microsoft Cluster Server - Multi-NIC support - Throttle the load on your LAN or WAN - Supports DES encryption - Supports NT Event Logs and SNMP - Drag and Drop configurations and fail-over - And there is much, much more. You will find an excellent White Paper with the 'Theory Of Operations', and a new Double-Take V3.0 PowerPoint presentation at this page: http://www.sunbelt-software.com/dtake.htm That's also the place where you can download the 30-day eval. Keep in mind, it's only a matter of time before some disaster strikes. When it does, will you be sufficiently protected? Download that eval! http://www.sunbelt-software.com/dtake.htm Warm regards, Stu ---attachment--------------------------------------------------- An abbreviated copy of the Press Release that went out this week with more specifics. Read the 'Additional Benefits Section'! "AWARD WINNING SERVER REPLICATION SOFTWARE NOW COVERS UNIX" HOBOKEN, N.J., Jan. 18 /PRNewswire/ -- NSI Software announced today version 3.0 of Double-Take, the company's award-winning server replication and server failover software. In line with NSI Software's strategy for embracing the burgeoning SAN/NAS market, a key feature of the new version is cross-platform replication. This initial multi-platform, cross-platform release of Double-Take will include Microsoft Windows NT (MSFT) and SUN Solaris (SUN) servers. High-Availability through system level monitoring and failover from NT-to-NT and Solaris-to-Solaris is also a primary feature of the software. "Customers have asked for a flexible, centralized, easy to manage server/data replication package -- with Double-Take 3.0 we have delivered that package and raised the bar on new features," Said John New, vice president of marketing for NSI Software. "The ease of centralized management, the ability to host native data from any supported NOS (Network Operating System) on any other NOS is truly remarkable, and will go a long way toward helping customers consolidate and optimize their data protection and disaster recovery plans." DATA REPLICATION FEATURES IN DOUBLE-TAKE 3.0 Double-Take's patented real-time data replication provides the following capabilities on top of the previous generation's award winning feature set: -- Cross Platform Storage Management with Unified Management Console GUI, or optionally; -- Integrated, Multi-OS scripting language and full command line control of all features; -- Industry leading security with multi-level administration and on-the-wire encryption of data; -- Ability for Windows NT, UNIX and (soon) NetWare servers to "host" non-native data from other NOS file systems, completely preserving all file attributes Fault Tolerance Features in Double-Take 3.0 When Double-Take's replication features are used among like operating systems, the software provides the following high availability and failover capabilities: -- Disaster recovery for stand alone (Solaris & NT) or MSCS clustered NT servers; -- Selective data replication and failover allows selection of data to be protected by volume, directory or even individual files; -- One-to-many server replication (One target machine can host many failed machines, good for disaster recovery -- if a site goes down with multiple servers, the target, off site machine can immediately stand in for the failed machines.); -- Open file replication support insures that large open files -- typically databases and e-mail applications -- recover with all data intact and with users able to access the applications and data as before failure. ADDITIONAL BENEFITS USING DOUBLE-TAKE + Double-Take can be used to consolidate tape backup operations: By using Double-Take to "host" data from many production file seRvers, the target server can then serve as an "offline," continuous backup station. + Loosely coupled server-to-server communications over existing network, whether Ethernet, Token Ring, etc. Source and Target servers have bandwidth control, automatic bandwidth throttling by user-defined thresholds, and efficient use of existing available bandwidth to insure the most effective and efficient processing of data possible. There is replication scheduling that will trigger either based on time (e.g. every night at 9pm connect and sync) or based on replicated data size (e.g. when XX megabytes are queued, make the connection and sync). + WAN-efficient operation makes disaster recovery and off site hosting of live data economical, reliable, and with new on the wire encryption -- secure. + Using cross-platform replication eases storage management, backup management and disaster recovery by providing one intuitive interface, whether you choose graphical, text based, command line or scripted. + Additional versions of UNIX will be added throughout 1999, with priorities given to the most popular, widespread versions within NSI's current customer base. Those customers include third-party developer and OEM arrangements with IBM and IBM Business Recovery Services, Hewlett-Packard, SunGard, Dell Computer Systems and Compaq Computer, among others. AIX, HP-UX and SCO are likely next versions available to customers. + Novell (NOVL) NetWare will be added to the cross-platform implemen- tation by Q2 1999 -- but in the meantime, Double-Take version 2.6 offers a superb NetWare-to-NetWare server replication and server failover solution. NSI Software is committed to providing continued support for NetWare. + VERIFICATION. Everybody knows that doing a backup is useless unless you can do a restore when you really need to. But who has time to actually test that? With DT V3, there is a verification function that may be scheduled as you wish. If a discrepancy is found, the Double- Take can be told to either report the problem or report and fix the out of sync data. This way you are regularly assured that the data on your source machine matches that of your target machine. Very cool... PRICING AND AVAILABILITY Double-Take 3.0 for Windows NT and Solaris is available now through all authorized NSI Software resellers and distributors. Introductory pricing starts at $1,495 per server. ABOUT DOUBLE-TAKE Double-Take(R) is the first multi-platform and cross-platform real- time data protection product for Windows NT, Unix and NetWare. Working in real time at the operating system level, Double-Take replicates selected data or complete file systems from one or more source servers to one or more target servers across existing LAN or wide area links. This patented technology is used to provide high availability for network servers, to centralize tape backup or to provide offsite disaster recovery. High availability solutions involve an advanced set of recovery techniques that reduce recovery time and eliminate or decrease the amount of information lost in a disaster or disruption. As businesses increasingly depend upon the availability of information, business recovery companies are developing offerings for this new approach. These techniques, which involve electronic transfer, may be used in lieu of conventional recovery plans for critical backup data. They shorten the recovery window by eliminating the need for physical transport of information, which may take 24 to 48 hours. ---end of attachment------------------------------------------------ Allright, I think you have got the picture ;-) Download that eval! http://www.sunbelt-software.com/dtake.htm Warm regards, Stu [cpu@ifixcomputers.com] This is a posting from the nt-list, To unsubscribe, send a blank email to leave-nt-list-245551J@lyris.sunbelt-software.com For killer servers at unbelievable prices check out: http://www.dell.com/outlet/sunbelt.htm --------------310F8BB6185984EF71CB9564-- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Jan 29 12:15:35 1999 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:21:00 -0800 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux User List , Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] PC/Mac Mall X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 I have tried several times to write to these guys, and every time I do I get a note back from the Sys Admin that states the reciepient is unknown... sales@hc.cc-inc.com is what is posted on their site, yet it kicks back as a bad address. The funny thing is, the line right before it is littered with MSEXCH and NT_PROXY stuff. I called the place and inquired why I could not find Linux on their site and the person (rude character) told me that UNIX was dying. When I quoted IDC stats, he responded with more UNIX is dying... He refused to say Linux. The best part of the conversation was when he told me that the problem with the e-mail was on my end, probably some incompatible software, and for some reason the rain in California makes for bad network connections and does wierd things to NT Servers. Please consider sending them a note letting them know that Linux/UNIX is not dead and they are closing their doors to cash-carrying customers...they might listen to numbers, assuming the rain hasn't gotten their server all water-logged. -- Regards, Bradley J. Willson d.b.a. Willson Consulting Services http://www.ifixcomputers.com A+ Authorized Service Center ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Jan 30 12:01:19 1999 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:59:50 +1300 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Andrew McClure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [linux-biz] redhat site down? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 Sorry to trouble list members with this one, but I've been unable to access the redhat site for some time, and wondered if anyone else was having a similar problem. At my end I'm getting DNS lookup failures, and am unable to resolve the name. b.t.w if anyone has a copy of Sybase' Adaptive Server in redhat .rpm format they could stick on an anon. ftp site for me, that would be much appreciated. And now for a bit of advocacy - this was from "News Dispatcher" today. ... Meanwhile, computing heavyweights are jumping on the Linux bandwagon. Linux is taking another step toward corporate credibility as big-name computer companies like Hewlett- Packard, Compaq, IBM, and Silicon Graphics scramble to respond to swelling customer demand and add support for Linux. Among information that emerged this past week: HP said that a model of its NetServer line, traditionally Windows NT machines, will come with a version of Linux and announced a support deal with Linux distributor Red Hat that will make it easier for corporate customers to adopt Linux on Intel-based servers. Compaq has qualified Linux on the new DS20 Alpha-based servers coming next week and plans to qualify Intel-based systems in the future. IBM is in discussions with Red Hat and said it's "aggressively" evaluating Linux servers. And details emerged about Silicon Graphics' efforts to get Linux to work on its workstations. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C31511%2C00.html?dd.ne.tx.wr _____________________________________ Andrew McClure Software Engineer - Wellington NZ Phone +64 4 479 2002 Mobile +64 21 671 117 _____________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Jan 30 15:02:04 1999 From: Con Zymaris To: andrew@amac.com.au (Andrew McClure) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:55:09 +1100 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: redhat site down? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 > Sorry to trouble list members with this one, but I've been unable > to access the redhat site for some time, and wondered if anyone > else was having a similar problem. At my end I'm getting DNS lookup > failures, and am unable to resolve the name. Red Hat is shifting offices this weekend, and their web server will be down for a little while. > > b.t.w if anyone has a copy of Sybase' Adaptive Server in redhat > .rpm format they could stick on an anon. ftp site for me, that > would be much appreciated. > > And now for a bit of advocacy - this was from "News Dispatcher" > today. > > ... Meanwhile, computing heavyweights are jumping on the Linux > bandwagon. Linux is taking another step toward corporate > credibility as big-name computer companies like Hewlett- > Packard, Compaq, IBM, and Silicon Graphics scramble to > respond to swelling customer demand and add support for Linux. > Among information that emerged this past week: HP said that a > model of its NetServer line, traditionally Windows NT machines, > will come with a version of Linux and announced a support deal > with Linux distributor Red Hat that will make it easier for corporate > customers to adopt Linux on Intel-based servers. Compaq has > qualified Linux on the new DS20 Alpha-based servers coming > next week and plans to qualify Intel-based systems in the future. > IBM is in discussions with Red Hat and said it's "aggressively" > evaluating Linux servers. And details emerged about Silicon > Graphics' efforts to get Linux to work on its workstations. > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C31511%2C00.html?dd.ne.tx.wr > Yes' it's been a whirlwind week and a whirlwind month in a whirlwind year for Linux ;-) IBM today joined Linux International. ZDNet, formerly Microsoft's biggest booster, have just published a set of benchmarkes which show that Linux leaves NT in the dust on every performance count measured. What was interesting was how much better Linux/SAMBA were at SMB serving on Microsoft networking than NT. Almost twice as good. These tests were all done on SAMBA 1.x. The killer is that I've been hearing rumours that the new SAMBA 2.x is 100% faster again.... con > Andrew McClure > Software Engineer - Wellington NZ > Phone +64 4 479 2002 > Mobile +64 21 671 117 > _____________________________________ > _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Windows Systems Administration and Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Jan 30 15:02:08 1999 Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:18:27 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: redhat site down? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 > ZDNet, formerly Microsoft's biggest booster, have just published a > set of benchmarkes which show that Linux leaves NT in the dust on > every performance count measured. Is this somewhere I can find it on the web? They and Byte never had any editorial integrity, I can't imagine what they think they are doing now. Odds are Microsoft is merely having a temporary setback, and they will roar back into dominance. The bully hasn't even fallen down; it is far too early to kick him. And even if the current pace of change is maintained, it will be another five to ten years before Microsoft becomes ignorable. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Jan 30 17:40:31 1999 From: "Chris Tyler" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:52:40 +0000 X-Face: *,j)>7_m)(4b*#BqizA=&l|1:3Hv?`;M@b(Vxd\)z\,ptx5nSoGeAqsNMczD,3HSQ0&j'K0rsz(S_?Q?Um.xU@T]*iuYzE0C![[A[03Su&`gX#AZ$EQOJ=naqi^auv&F[WDYVu@]A%Pv X-URL: http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 24feb96 Caldera) To: Brian Bartholomew Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [linux-biz] Re: redhat site down? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 On Jan 30, 8:18am, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > Subject: [linux-biz] Re: redhat site down? > > ZDNet, formerly Microsoft's biggest booster, have just published a > > set of benchmarkes which show that Linux leaves NT in the dust on > > every performance count measured. > > Is this somewhere I can find it on the web? Try: http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/issue/0,4537,387506,00.html That's the overview. Look at the sidebar links (right side) for the details, graphs, etc. This is from SRO, which has been one of the more favorable (towards Linux) ZD Pubs. -- Chris Tyler Global Proximity Corporation http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ Internet and Computer Consulting (519) 469-3439 / fax (519) 469-8653 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Jan 30 17:40:54 1999 From: "Cary O'Brien" To: andrew@amac.com.au (Andrew McClure) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:13:37 -0500 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: redhat site down? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 28 > > Sorry to trouble list members with this one, but I've been unable > to access the redhat site for some time, and wondered if anyone > else was having a similar problem. At my end I'm getting DNS lookup > failures, and am unable to resolve the name. > Yup. They moved their office (on a friday!). They're still down saturday morning. Kind of slack, that. A lot of people depend on the RedHat site for help/upgrades. > b.t.w if anyone has a copy of Sybase' Adaptive Server in redhat > .rpm format they could stick on an anon. ftp site for me, that > would be much appreciated. > > And now for a bit of advocacy - this was from "News Dispatcher" > today. > > ... Meanwhile, computing heavyweights are jumping on the Linux > bandwagon. Linux is taking another step toward corporate > credibility as big-name computer companies like Hewlett- > Packard, Compaq, IBM, and Silicon Graphics scramble to > respond to swelling customer demand and add support for Linux. > Among information that emerged this past week: HP said that a > model of its NetServer line, traditionally Windows NT machines, > will come with a version of Linux and announced a support deal > with Linux distributor Red Hat that will make it easier for corporate > customers to adopt Linux on Intel-based servers. Compaq has > qualified Linux on the new DS20 Alpha-based servers coming > next week and plans to qualify Intel-based systems in the future. > IBM is in discussions with Red Hat and said it's "aggressively" > evaluating Linux servers. And details emerged about Silicon > Graphics' efforts to get Linux to work on its workstations. > My conspiracy-laden mind can't shake the thought that this is all being orchestrated by Microsoft, and that when the trial is over they will focus their efforts on squashing Linux like a bug. Microsoft has a documented track record of attempting to manipulate the press. My big worry is Microsoft going through all the patents it owns (thanks to buying up little companies), and a Linux source distribution and matching things up. -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Jan 30 17:41:05 1999 From: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) To: Brian Bartholomew Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:23:19 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: redhat site down? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:18:27 -0500, Brian Bartholomew wrote: >> ZDNet, formerly Microsoft's biggest booster, have just published a >> set of benchmarkes which show that Linux leaves NT in the dust on >> every performance count measured. > >Is this somewhere I can find it on the web? They and Byte never had >From Sm@rt Resseller, one of ZD's many magazines They compare web servers and windows networking on NT and several distributions of linux. from a related article about Linux doing windows networking: You might think that Linux would operate at a disadvantage here, but Linux kicks NT's butt. Only at the lightest loads does NT hold any advantage over the Linuxes. Once the load moves to 12 clients, all the Linux platforms take commanding leads over NT. At 32 clients, SuSE, the weakest Linux, has more than double NT's throughput, and Red Hat, the leader, extends its lead to almost 250 percent of NT's performance. FInd more at: http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/issue/0,4537,387506,00.html -- Ed Weinberg, Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider edw@detel.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Jan 31 22:01:00 1999 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:09:19 -0800 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux User List , Linux Business List Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C08C18953C6D925DC5F6D526" Subject: [linux-biz] [Fwd: Windows NTools[tm] E-News[tm] - Windows 2000 Expectations] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 30 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C08C18953C6D925DC5F6D526 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An update from the other side. -- Regards, Bradley J. Willson d.b.a. Willson Consulting Services http://www.ifixcomputers.com A+ Authorized Service Center --------------C08C18953C6D925DC5F6D526 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: by baker.cnw.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id XAA08014 for cpu@cnw.com; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from poseidon.sunbelt-software.com (poseidon.sunbelt-software.com [207.90.4.68]) by baker.cnw.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id XAA07997 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:03:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:44:7 Subject: Windows NTools[tm] E-News[tm] - Windows 2000 Expectations To: "Latest Win NT News" From: nt-list-admin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-To: comments@lyris.sunbelt-software.com Message-Id: Precedence: bulk Content-Type: text MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by baker.cnw.com id KAA14081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sunbelt Windows NTools[tm] Electronic Newsletter Vol. 4, #3 - Jan 30, 1999 --- http://www.sunbelt-software.com --- ********************* NOW 170,000 SUBSCRIBERS********************* This issue of Windows NTools E-News contains: 1. "EDITORS CORNER"=20 * WINDOWS 2000 (W2K) 1999 EXPECTATIONS 2. "TECH BRIEFING" * NEW W2K STORAGE FEATURES - WHITE PAPER 3. "NT RELATED NEWS"=20 * STILL WAITING FOR W2K: WHEN? * INTERESTING BACKOFFICE ADMINISTRATOR'S CONFERENCE * MICROSOFT HAS PUT FULL TECHNET CD CONTENT ONLINE: FREE! * THE TEN BIGGEST CHANGES IN W2K 4. "NT THIRD PARTY NEWS" * RE: NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT: SECURITY EXPLORER * NETWORK SERVANT NOW CORRECTLY DISPLAYS LAST LOGON DATE * AUTOPILOT AVAILABLE VIA ONLINE PURCHASE * NEW PRINT MANAGER PLUS V2.61 SLASHES COSTS OF PRINTING * THE 4 FLAVORS OF QUOTA ADVISOR, AND WHAT THEY DO. 5. "HINTS AND TIPS - TIME SAVERS AND OTHER GOODIES... 6. "THE NT STOCK WATCH" 7. "Y2K WATCH" 8. "HOW TO USE THE MAILING LIST" Instructions on how to subscribe, sign off or change your address. ****************WHAT IS NTOOLS E-NEWS?****************************** Sunbelt Windows NTools E-News is the World's first and largest=20 E-Newsletter designed for NT System Managers that have the job to=20 get and keep NT up & running in a production environment. Sunbelt=20 launched this electronic newsletter early 1996. Every two weeks we keep the Windows NT community informed and aware of new developments of NT and 3-rd party NT System Management Tools. You get hints and tips that will enable you to better utilize and understand Windows NT,=20 now renamed to Windows 2000 (W2K and pronounced Win-two-K). You'll find general Windows NT related and third party news, tech information, and 3-rd party beta and release information. As a subscriber to NTools E-News[tm], you will receive instant notifi- cation of important NT related events and you are also a charter=20 member of the Sunbelt Field Test Bonus Program. Sunbelt Software is=20 the first and largest distributor worldwide of Third Party System Management Tools for Windows NT with 6 subsidiaries in the US and=20 Europe. **************************SPONSOR********************************** Windows NTexplorer magazine is the #1 magazine for UK based Windows NT professionals. With an editorial focus on the management of=20 Windows NT & BackOffice components, Windows NTexplorer magazine helps IT directors, managers and project leaders decide on the direc- tion of their "NT Shop" whilst leaving the technical stuff to Windows=20 NT magazine. Claim your free copy of Windows NTexplorer magazine today! Simply email sample@ntexplorer.com with your postal details, or=20 click here http://www.ntexplorer.com. We'll send you a copy asap! ******************************************************************* 1. "EDITORS CORNER"=20 Hi NT-ers, What is happening with W2K, and do we care? Well, yes and no. This has been the world's most hyped piece of software ever for sure, we are now basically 5 years down the road from the first time that it was discussed under a multitude of code names. Many terms have been invented to describe it: slideware, vaporware, slipware, you name it. Are we anxiously biting our nails until we=20 finally get the gold release? Nope, let's get all those NT systems=20 safely to SP4 and then we'll think again. But large outfits really=20 need Active Directory to roll out NT and since it is not there,=20 Novell has a new temporary lease on life with its NDS.=20 NT is still penetrating the enterprise from the bottom up and is growing, but the growth has slowed somewhat. W2K should get that boosted again but it now looks like it will even slide in 2000. MS just announced that Beta 3 will be pushed back. Personally I think we still might see a Q4 surprise release. Not that this=20 will do much good. Nobody is going to deploy W2K right over the=20 millennium roll-over. In the mean time, everybody is finding out that to really have NT up & running in a production environment you need more tools. The 'aftermarket' for NT utilities is booming and I expect it to keep on going especially since full W2K deployment is going to be almost two years away. It is a great time for third party developers to show what time and money they save _now_ and how they are going to integrate with W2K. W2K has a raft of new features (See item: "THE TEN BIGGEST CHANGES=20 IN W2K", but does not make things easier. On the contrary actually.=20 There is tremendous opportunity for the third party community to=20 add value, especially in the Active Directory space. There are=20 significant holes in V1.0 of AD. Trusted Enterprise Manager is a=20 good example of a tool that does provides essential (system admin=20 delegation power) value now, but will positively shine in the new=20 W2K environment.=20 Let's get to work and see what's up with W2K, read on! Warm regards, Stu ******************************************************************** 2. "TECH BRIEFING" * NEW W2K STORAGE FEATURES - WHITE PAPER Windows 2000 has become VERY strong in storage management. Microsoft has come out with a White Paper that describes all the features and introduces a few new concepts which are important to understand. W2K includes a few key enhancements to the storage architecture that help large environments to scale better. The white paper describes the enhancements in NTFS. We have a copy of it on the Sunbelt website that you can pull down=20 immediately without filling out any forms or anything. It's in WORD format so it makes no sense to repeat everything. This is a warmly recommended piece to download, print, and study at home overnight with a hot cup of something and no disturbances. Here it is! http://www.sunbelt-software.com/forum/w2000storage.doc After you have read it, check out the page for Storage Resource Manager on the Sunbelt website and you will see that it is an excellent tool for right now, and will fit even better in the W2K environment. ******************************************************************** 3. "NT RELATED NEWS"=20 * STILL WAITING FOR W2K: WHEN? Well, they have pushed back the release date for the W2K Beta 3 to April instead of this Feb'99. That might well mean that it will not 'Go Gold' until Q1 or even Q2 2000. But I'm optimistic and think they might come up with it in Q4 this year. They have had enough time one would say. MS also continued the ongoing NT Server 4.0 upgrade promo until the end of June. That signals that they do not count on announcing W2K before that time, and I predict that the upgrade promo will continue to at least Q3 or Q4. The delay will start to impact the NT sales and we already see the server growth percentage slow down somewhat. "Microsoft vehemently denied that Windows 2000 would slip to the second half six months ago and now we see that it probably will," said Chris Le Toq, analyst for Dataquest. "It would be a really tough product to delive= r in the fourth quarter. The Year 2000 issue would be a big deal." Of course Chris is right. No one in their right mind is going to deploy W2K during the millennium roll-over or even 3-6 months afterward. The=20 fact that Microsoft just made a large investment in Banyan is also very interesting. Banyan is the third 'Network Directory' system in the=20 market, and has been competing with Novell's Directory Service for years. Banyan has agreed to migrate all their customers to Active Directory but MS may be having some problems with Active Directory. This shows Bill Gates' well knows strategy of always betting on more than one horse. And in the same vein, Microsoft's Terminal Server pricing finally=20 collapsed. They were under pressure right from the start and have finally caved in to user demands. They have committed to shipping the next editio= n as standard with W2K. Terminal Server is to be integrated as of Beta 3 of W2K that we will see in April.=20 The new price levels for Terminal Server basically mean that the multiuse= r server component is free. If you deduct the new license costs from a five user retail pack's price of $1,299, for example, then you're down to the ballpark price for vanilla NT Server (although admittedly this comes with Client Access Licenses too).=20 There is one other thing in the announcement that is noteworthy: the $9,9= 99 Internet Connector License. This is an idea to allow so called 'Applicati= on Service Providers' have 200 simultaneous anonymous users hook up anony- mously to NT Server Apps. 15 years ago this was called timesharing on the mainframe, the only thing different is that there is no authentication an= d it's now worldwide.=20 The kicker however is that these anonymous users are NOT allowed to be on your company payroll. You are supposed to rent it out to people outside the company. Obviously difficult to police, and this means we need to=20 watch out for something like Web-based software auditing creeping into W2= K. And to end off, on a recent little car trip to Saint Petersburg I found a company that is already well into Windows 2000 and even advertising the fact. I made a shot of their Billboard. http://www.sunbelt-software.com/win2kpic.jpg=20 ---------------------------- * INTERESTING BACKOFFICE ADMINISTRATOR'S CONFERENCE BackOffice Administrators - Finally one for YOU! The Microsoft BackOffice Administrator's Conference June 21-24,=20 1999 - Space is limited - get real-life information from leaders=20 like Sharon Dooley, Mike Hotek, Stephen Wynkoop and others. =20 Windows NT/2000, SQL Server, SMS, Site Server, IIS, Exchange=20 and more - things are changing rapidly and these changes move more=20 and more responsibility onto the plate of the administrator for=20 these systems.=20 With a focused conference, you'll have the time you need to talk=20 with speakers, to hear about real-life solutions and to network=20 with your peers. Controlled session sizes will make sure you get=20 information and techniques that pay off instantly. This conference was designed, developed and built by NT admini- strators like you. It's not about selling product, it's about=20 getting the right sessions at the right time to make your job=20 easier and your position stronger. All speakers are pre-screened to assure quality and applicability.=20 You'll get a directory of the speakers at the conference so you can=20 contact them for more information. Registration is now open! Go check out the details at: http://www.swynk.com/sunbelt ---------------------------- * MICROSOFT HAS PUT FULL TECHNET CD CONTENT ONLINE: FREE! You may have heard about it, but perhaps not. It=92s good news either way. Ever wondered how the MS tech gurus got their status? Most of them have studied Microsoft's bulky resource kits and the MS Knowledge Base. This last one covers bugs and white papers, deployment guides and tips.=20 In 1998 the only way to get your hands on all that valuable data together in one location was a subscription to the TechNet CD-ROM program for 300 bucks per year. The good news is that in January 1999 Microsoft decided t= o put the whole CD series online. And they added a few 'online-only' extra goodies. The only thing you have to do is REGISTER, and the whole TechNet= =20 CD Online is free! In case you already have the CD-ROM TechNet, keep it for a while. The=20 benefit of getting the monthly CDs is the 20-CD library of service packs, patches, and add-ons. That will save a lot of time if you have to downloa= d lots of whopping service packs, updates, or product add-ons. But the new TechNet Web has a few nice goodies. It has a Q&A column that is called the 'TechNet Mole'. It will divulge secrets from MS's own IS people. There are also candid MS product reviews written by TechNet=20 subscribers like you. It's THE place to start look when you are hit with a technical problem. Thank You Microsoft, it's a great way to use the Web. Here you go: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/ ------------------------------- * THE TEN BIGGEST CHANGES IN W2K 1) ACTIVE DIRECTORY - AD gets all company-wide administrative information organized into one single hierarchical tree-style directory. 2) IMPROVED SECURITY - W2K will provide a more secure environment by implementing 'Kerberos' based log-ins and supports IPSec. These two major changes mean significantly higher barriers against intrusions. 3) WINDOWS TERMINAL SERVER - Allows low-cost terminals or old PC's to access NT in a true oldfashioned multi-user access fashion. Saves cash for new PC hardware but not a big mainstream market. About 15% of the NT sites plan to use it I recently read. 4) APPLICATION INSTALLATION SERVICE - This puppy installs apps automatically as your users move around your network. 5) IMPROVED DISK MANAGEMENT - you can now add disk storage on-the-fly,=20 which is pretty good. Also, see the Tech Briefing as there is much more regarding that point. 6) HIERARCHICAL STORAGE MANAGEMENT - They also call this HSM and has been around forever in mini- and mainframe environments. It automatically moves infrequently used data to slower, less expensive media like tapes or juke boxes. 7) MICROSOFT MANAGEMENT CONSOLE - This promises to integrate the admin functions into a single program. It's basically a shell that you use to fire up the admin apps. 8) 64GIG MEMORY LIMIT - admittedly, having 64 GIG RAM is pretty impressiv= e. You can have a m a j o r database running in memory that way. And price= s of memory are going to continue to drop so this is promising. 9) DISK QUOTAS - NT will have built-in bare bones quotas. We have looked at them. Nice for a 25-user environment but hardly fit for enterprise use. Wait for an interesting announcement from one of the Third Party quota developers soon and read the item in below about Quota Advisor flavors. 10) WINDOWS SCRIPTING HOST - pretty powerful way to automate common tasks and allows Third Parties to hook into as well to schedule things.=20 *********************************************************************** 4. "NT THIRD PARTY NEWS" * RE: NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT: SECURITY EXPLORER In the last issue, we pointed you all to a new tool we found out about. That caused almost a 1000 downloads and the developer called us and said that was WAY too much to follow up and if we please could help. So we jumped in and Security Explorer is now on the Sunbelt Website, we'll sell and support that tool. It's pretty cool actually. A short description:=20 "Security Explorer is a powerful and intuitive utility to search for=20 and modify Windows NT security on NTFS drives, the Registry, and Shares.=20 Search across subdirectories for permissions. Grant, revoke, and clone permissions across subdirectories without affecting any other user's=20 permissions. Select 50 shares on a server, and grant permissions to=20 multiple users and groups at one time. Export permissions to a database=20 for further analysis and reporting. Back up your file permissions and=20 restore them if necessary. Set ownership on files and directories.=20 Seamless integration with the Windows NT 4.0 Desktop (right-click just=20 about anywhere). Security Explorer makes finding security holes and=20 fixing them a snap!" http://www.sunbelt-software.com/secuexpl.htm Great tool to survive your next Security Audit and a wonderful=20 companion product with Trusted Enterprise Manager to batten down the NT hatches: http://www.sunbelt-software.com/tem.htm ------------------------------ * NETWORK SERVANT NOW CORRECTLY DISPLAYS LAST LOGON DATE We updated the website with the brand new 3.1 release of Network ServaNT. It now includes the object =91Users of domain (real last logon data)=92. = If=20 you select this object, Network ServaNT will compare the logon data from all DC=92s and choose the last one. The last logon date plays an importan= t=20 role in reports about stale user accounts. Therefore the information=20 displayed must be accurate. ------------------------------ * AUTOPILOT AVAILABLE VIA ONLINE PURCHASE AutoPilot is a performance booster for busy NT workstations and servers. One of our most active resellers has been given authority to sell=20 AutoPilot on-line via their secure electronic download section. You can now get a full copy within 10 minutes over at: http://www.softwareshelf.com/auto.htm ------------------------------ * NEW PRINT MANAGER PLUS V2.61 SLASHES COSTS OF PRINTING Slashing runaway costs of printing for schools and organizations,=20 Software Shelf International, Inc. announced the release of Print Manager Plus Version 2.6.1A for network administrators of educational institution= s and corporate environments to quota or track numbers of pages printed by users or printers. Software Shelf President Bill Feeley states, "Companies or educational institutions can really find out how much money is wasted on printing and why. A university of 25,000 students having gone NT with students on the Internet is on average printing 200 million pages per year by students at a cost of between $10 million to $30 million in paper, toner, and printer wear and tear. Windows NT or 2000 lack functionality to directly control or quota such printing across an organization or within a lab or group of students. By installing Print Manager Plus on the Windows print server this cost can be significantly reduced without loss of student production= ." Features include an End User Inquiry Tool informing users how much they=20 print. More robust, easier to use, it installs in seconds as a native NT=20 service with all user and printer names automatically pulled up with no=20 system administrator work required. All versions of Print Manager Plus=20 are Year 2000 Compliant. Print Manager Plus is already in use by=20 thousands of schools and organizations worldwide. Download 30-day eval: http://www.sunbelt-software.com/printmgr.htm ------------------------------ * THE 4 FLAVORS OF QUOTA ADVISOR, AND WHAT THEY DO. Quota Advisor is now without doubt the Market Leader in NT disk Quota tools. The advanced technology of their (patent pending) Filter Driver technology makes this tool a true second generation tool that does hard disk quotas better than the first generation utilities that use NT security to lock out users from objects. Quota Advisor is also the first tool that can assign quota's to individual _USERS_, apart from several disk objects (like home directories) that it of course does. There are now 4 flavors: - Quota Advisor Cluster Edition that fully supports MSCS - Quota Advisor 4.0 which is by far the most advanced quota tool - Quota Advisor 2.1 Enterprise Edition - Quota Advisor 2.1 Standard Edition The last two have been made cheaper so you have a choice which tool you need to use for what machine. We have compiled a grid with all the features. You should really have a good look at these features, the new V4.0 is really made based on your feedback and has a few very powerful options. If you compare the prices of Quota Advisor with other tools on the market you will find that QA is sometimes half the cost, with more features. This is the QA page: http://www.sunbelt-software.com/qa21.htm =20 And as a shortcut, this goes straight to the Grid! http://www.sunbelt-software.com/QAcomp.htm ******************************************************************** 5. "HINTS AND TIPS - TIME SAVERS AND OTHER GOODIES... Tip Regarding Tape Backup Devices: Buy technology that is FAST, but also affordable so that you can buy TWO of them. It is important you can get your hands on a critical file that sits on a backup tape in a short amount of time. Tapes fail much more than disks, so it makes sense to make more than one tape, perhaps even at the same=20 time. So buy TWO identical tape devices. That also allows you to quickly=20 restore a file _while_ you are making a backup on the other device so=20 that you do not have to interrupt that backup and put your data at=20 risk. And if you need to get tapes off-site for disaster recovery,=20 you can use a little known but highly useful utility called Media=20 Mirror that provides you with RAID1 for your tape backup devices.=20 Check it out at http://www.sunbelt-software.com/highmm.htm ******************************************************************** 6. "THE NT STOCK WATCH" Weekend Jan 30, 1999 52 WK 52 WK P/E WEEK SECURITY CLOSE HIGH LOW RATIO CHNG --------------------------------------------------------------------- Advanced Micro Devices... 22 15/16 33 12 3/4 +6.3% BMC Softwear............. 46 11/16 60 1/4 32 1/4 35 +6.2% Citrix Systems Inc....... 90 5/8 107 1/2 36 3/8 +3.8% Compaq Computer.......... 47 5/8 51 1/4 22 15/16 +3.1% Computer Associates...... 50 5/8 61 15/16 26 51 +5.6% Data General Corp........ 19 9/16 21 13/16 7 -5.1% Dell Computer............ 100 94 7/32 23 1/2 +20.4% Gateway 2000 Inc......... 77 1/4 70 3/4 35 7/8 35 +23.6% Hewlett Packard Co....... 78 3/8 82 3/8 47 1/16 28 +12.5% Intergraph Corp.......... 5 1/16 10 9/16 4 11/16 -1.2% International Business Ma 183 1/4 199 1/4 95 5/8 28 +1.9% Micron Electronics Inc... 15 3/8 24 3/4 9 11/16 25 +3.3% Microsoft Corp........... 175 174 7/16 69 1/4 74 +12.0% NCR Corp................. 48 3/4 55 3/4 23 1/2 41 -0.5% Network Associates Inc... 52 3/8 67 11/16 25 1/2 +5.8% Novell Inc............... 20 3/8 20 11/16 6 13/16 70 +6.1% Oracle Corp.............. 55 3/8 54 5/16 18 3/16 50 +11.0% Qualcomm Incorporated.... 65 13/16 67 5/8 37 3/4 41 +11.5% Qualix Group Inc......... 7 13/16 9 1/8 0 15/16 +0.8% Seagate Technology....... 40 11/16 44 1/4 16 1/8 +5.6% Silicon Graphics......... 20 9/16 19 1/4 7 3/8 +22.3% Sun Microsystems Inc..... 111 3/4 115 3/4 37 5/8 51 +14.0% Sybase Inc............... 10 3/16 11 5/8 4 1/2 -1.2% Symantec Corp............ 20 7/16 32 5/8 8 11/16 27 -10.1% Unisys Corp.............. 33 1/8 36 1/2 15 1/4 31 -3.2% Veritas Software Corp.... 83 5/8 85 23 3/4 84 +8.6% Dow Jones 30 Industrials. 9,358.83 +2.6% ******************************************************************** 7. "Y2K WATCH" Only 334 days to Jan 1, 2000=20 Americans want to know more about the Y2K glitch and how it could affect their lives and less about the reactionary fears it is causing, a new=20 survey says. The 1,002 people surveyed said the press should refrain=20 from lurid tales of gun-toting survivalists predicting Armageddon and=20 report instead on the Y2K readiness of local hospitals, governments,=20 and electric utilities. 53 percent of the public calls Y2K "one of the=20 most important issues facing the country right now."=20 This is the most interesting Y2K article that has come my way this week. http://www.wired.com/news/news/email/explode-infobeat/politics/story/1761= 1.html ******************************************************************** 8. "HOW TO USE THE MAILING LIST" Instructions on how to subscribe, sign off or change your email address TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE LIST (Tell your friends!) Click: http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/scripts/lyris.pl?join=3Dnt-list and fill out the form, simple & easy: 1 minute work. Or by email, send a blank message to the following address: join-nt-list@lyris.sunbelt-software.com _____________________________________________________ TO QUIT THE LIST 1) The Web Way: http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/scripts/lyris.pl? choose the NT-List, use your email address that is at=20 the bottom of each newsletter and leave the list via=20 the web interface. 2) The Email Way: Simply follow the personalized=20 instructions at the very end of this newsletter. _____________________________________________________ TO CHANGE YOUR ADDRESS First unsubscribe and then resubscribe as per the procedure above. ******************************************************************** FOR MORE INFORMATION On the World Wide Web point your browser to: For the newsletter and our website: USA: http://www.sunbelt-software.com Email for US sales information to: ntsales@sunbelt-software.com Email for US Tech support to: support@sunbelt-software.com Email to the US Editor: ntnews@gte.net Email for European Sales to: Europe@sunbelt.fr Email for European Tech support to: support@sunbelt.fr ******************************************************************** Things Our Lawyers Make Us Say: This document is provided for informational purposes only.=20 The information contained in this document represents the current view of Sunbelt Software Distribution on the issues discussed as of the date of publication. Because Sunbelt must respond to changes in market conditions, it should not be interpreted to be a commitment on the part of Sunbelt and Sunbelt cannot guarantee the accuracy of any informa- tion presented after the date of publication. INFORMATION PROVIDED IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND FREEDOM FROM INFRINGEMENT. The user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and the use of this document. This document may be copied and distributed subject to the following conditions: 1) All text must be copied without modification and all pages must be included; 2) All copies must contain Sunbelt's copyright notice and any other notices provided therein; and 3) This document may not be distributed for profit. All trademarks acknowledged. Copyright Sunbelt Software Distribution, Inc. 1996-1999. [cpu@ifixcomputers.com] This is a posting from the nt-list, To unsubscribe, send a blank email=20 to leave-nt-list-245551J@lyris.sunbelt-software.com For killer servers at unbelievable prices check out: http://www.dell.com/outlet/sunbelt.htm=20 --------------C08C18953C6D925DC5F6D526-- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Jan 31 22:01:37 1999 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:37:53 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: "Bradley J. Willson" cc: Linux User List , Linux Business List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: [Fwd: Windows NTools[tm] E-News[tm] - Windows 2000 Expectations] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 31 *sigh* I had really hoped this "trend" of posting NT-related stuff to linux-biz was going to be short lived. Apparently not. *If* it is interesting to some readers of Linux-biz, I submit that they can and should subscribe themselves to the appropriate NT-mailing lists. While I conceed that discussing things like microsoft's latest move and how it affects linux is important, I think fwding every mailing out there that mentions some product for NT or some sentiment among some segment of NT users and disecting it with "linux does that for free already, and that, and that, and that..." or "they're wrong, here's why" is at best some sort of silly group affirmation on the part of linux-biz'ers. Please let's not let linux-biz turn into the mac-evangelist sort of list that exists for exactly that sort of reason (affirmation). If such a thing is of interest to a non-negligible # of people then let's make a new list (I'll host it) or find an existing list which already serves that purpose. I'm on linux-biz to discuss ways in which people are taking advantage of linux in business, ways in which people are convincing their boss/client/etc to use linux, novel ideas for how to make linux and/or open source suceed as the foundation of business (I've forgotten the very intelligent person's name from the LPF on this list, but he's a great example I think), etc. If I'm in the wrong and all of this NT stuff is in the scope of linux-biz, someone please whap me. =) jim being a crumudgeon this morning -- Linux has been deployed in mission critical, commercial environments with an excellent pool of public testimonials... Linux outperforms many other UNIXes ... Linux is on track to eventually own the x86 UNIX market... Linux is a short/medium-term threat ... against NT Server. Linux's future strength against NT server ... is fed by ... perceived Scaleability, Interopability, Availability, and Manageability (SIAM) over NT. Linux can win.... Microsoft Internal Memo, annotated at http://www.opensource.org/halloween.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Jan 31 23:19:57 1999 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:16:37 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business cc: "Bradley J. Willson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: [Fwd: Windows NTools[tm] E-News[tm] - Windows 2000 Expectations] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 32 On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Jim Hebert wrote: > *sigh* I had really hoped this "trend" of posting NT-related stuff to > linux-biz was going to be short lived. Apparently not. I would only like to second your concern. One time was OK, but I'm not interested in continuing to see this NT newsletter on linux-biz. I do not need linux-biz for information on NT -- I can get information on NT everywhere. Thanks, Dwight -- http://linuxtoday.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Jan 31 23:20:04 1999 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:47:19 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Linux Business Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 A group of people (myself included) have been working for some months, on a program that would allow Linux skills to be certified by a community body -- like the Novell CNE scheme, but with differences that make it uniquely Unix-like. This project is now ready to go public, asking for further community support while it refines the program. Please have a look at http://www.linuxinstitute.org and share your comments. Note: we are fully aware of the debate, in which one side claims Linux does not need certification at all. We are fully aware that this program is not for everyone, but that it attempts to serve that portion of the Linux community to which certification is important. We believe the existence of a trusted certification program will increase Linux's acceptance within the business computing mainstream. BTW, Dwight, if you see fit to bring this to the attention of Linux Today readers, it'd be much appreciated. :-) -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 06:02:47 1999 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:44:27 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 34 [ Sorry, Evan, most of your ideas are great, but this one's a dud. ] > Please have a look at http://www.linuxinstitute.org and share your > comments. [...] We believe the existence of a trusted certification > program will increase Linux's acceptance within the business > computing mainstream. If your goal is to ape the Novell/Microsoft certification process for Linux, you're on the right track. Only instead of having three levels, you should have thirty. Certifications should cover non- orthogonal skill areas so they cannot be directly compared. Don't provide clues to the certification hierarchy, such as by repeating the word "system" more times in the higher titles. Instead, name certification levels with permutations of rankless words like "network" and "engineer". Make it financially and schedully impractical for anyone to complete your highest rank, thereby awarding the authority to criticize your system. If you must award a terminal degree, first co-opt recipients financially. Back when the Novell CNE was first offered, back when there was only one level of certification, I considered getting a Novell CNE so I could flame Novell from a position of authority. There wasn't much to the test, anyone who had used Netware for a year and read the command summary manual could sleep their way through it. The multi-hundred- dollar testing fee dissuaded me. Your certifications must be very expensive and the test contents guarded with much legal saber rattling, or the vast talent pool on the net will take them apart and throw the pieces at you. Consider the impact on your credibility of a web page offering an accurate, line-by-line critique of your tests. One that explains why none of the answers is really what the customers want, it's just a parroting of the vendor's marketing this week. Certification is fundamentally a dues-paying monopoly, like a union apprenticeship. Its goals are twofold: One, it markets to outsiders, and sells the contradiction that Linux is both hard to use/learn for outsiders and easy to use/learn for insiders. Two, it keeps the young whippersnappers down so they don't compete with the old-timers. Whereas, if you truly want to identify Linux skill, you'll find you need to test for generic engineering ability, not for memorization of the details of the moment. True Linux skill is a well-rounded ability to solve problems: evaluate a situation, devise a solution, implement the solution, verify performance, and leave. Details such as the differences between distribution are recalled from memory or extracted from documentation as needed. Solutions are judged on whether they are reliable, functional, and economical. See the work SAGE is doing on Unix certification at http://www.usenix.org. They don't have an answer yet, but they do know what they don't want. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 08:54:30 1999 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:58:16 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > [ Sorry, Evan, most of your ideas are great, but this one's a dud. ] You sound like this is a one-man effort. It's not. I'm but one of a group numbering in the hundreds. Besides, I'm not so sure of what your metric of "dudness" is. As I said in the original message, it's not for everyone. The most skilled Linux people will neither need nor get certification. Our measure of success is whether anyone will respect the process and specify the certification. Like it or not, human resources people don't want to learn Linux in order to be able to hire competent Linux people. This is an (admittedly partial) answer for them. One can rail against such a system all one wants, but the fact remains that such third-party verification of basic skills is in demand. > If your goal is to ape the Novell/Microsoft certification process for > Linux, you're on the right track. Only instead of having three > levels, you should have thirty. Certifications should cover non- > orthogonal skill areas so they cannot be directly compared. Don't > provide clues to the certification hierarchy, such as by repeating the > word "system" more times in the higher titles. Instead, name > certification levels with permutations of rankless words like > "network" and "engineer". Make it financially and schedully > impractical for anyone to complete your highest rank, thereby awarding > the authority to criticize your system. If you must award a terminal > degree, first co-opt recipients financially. Thanks for the suggestions. Not likely most of them will be used, though. We're using input from trainers, people who want certification, and companies who want a well-defined level of competence. The intention is to do this, Linux style, through a process as open as possible, and as inexpensively as possible. > Your certifications must be very expensive and the test contents > guarded with much legal saber rattling, or the vast talent pool on the > net will take them apart and throw the pieces at you. Consider the > impact on your credibility of a web page offering an accurate, > line-by-line critique of your tests. One that explains why none of the > answers is really what the customers want, it's just a parroting of > the vendor's marketing this week. If you have a point to make here, I'd love to hear it -- unfortunately I'm not doing very well at separating the sarcasm from the moaning. We're trying hard to make the system work, with a broad base of input that includes students, trainers, and the IT and HR people who have been asking for it. The subject matter will be public information; if it doesn't test the skills people need, we'll know about it, and change accordingly. > Certification is fundamentally a dues-paying monopoly, like a union > apprenticeship. There are certain very real differences between this effort and the vendor-controlled CNE types. While I (think I) see your analogy, I fail to understand what point it's trying to make. > Its goals are twofold: One, it markets to outsiders, and sells the > contradiction that Linux is both hard to use/learn for outsiders and > easy to use/learn for insiders. Please explain. If your goal is to offer some constructive criticism, I'd like to understand your complaint. If your point is that certification, *any* certification, is a Bad Thing no matter how it's run, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. > Whereas, if you truly want to identify Linux skill, you'll find you > need to test for generic engineering ability, not for memorization of > the details of the moment. The program we propose acknowledges that it's limited by the testing methodology we can use. It can't, and doesn't pretend to, test one's instincts and ability to deal with the unexpected. It *does* assert that there is a fairly high number of commonly repeated tasks, and that certain fundamentals lie beneath any capable problem solving. > True Linux skill is a well-rounded ability to solve problems: Please spare me with the judgements of "true Linux skill"; there are as many judges of what constitutes that as there are Linux users. The best we can do -- and we don't claim to do more -- is to check for the basics. All the problem solving skills in the world won't help someone who doesn't know the difference between a broadcast IP and a netmask. > Details such as the differences between distribution are recalled from > memory or extracted from documentation as needed. Has it occured to you that part of the initial levels to be tested is the skill of where to look for asisstance, siupport and documentation? What Linux "old timers" often forget is how hard the initial learning curve was (and essentially, still is). What some may think of as second nature is often something that must be taught and tested. > See the work SAGE is doing on Unix certification at > http://www.usenix.org. They don't have an answer yet, but they do > know what they don't want. We did better than that; one of the group's leaders attended the SAGE certification session at the last Usenix. They don't know what they want, they don't know what they don't want, they don't even know what questions to ask. They've been chasing their tails for eight years and have no end in sight -- as a result, they will be simply ignored by those who *do* want a certification program. Indeed, that's what this is all about -- supply and demand. Where programs like this differ from traditional Linux projects is that they're being driven by the needs of end users rather than developers. If nobody wanted certification there'd be no reason to create it; this is a community, non-profit effort and we're not in it for the money. It exists because, lime a programmer inventing a new tool, we saw a need that existed in some specific parts of the community. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 08:55:04 1999 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 06:28:51 +0000 From: "Don 'Morc' Lafontaine" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Evan Leibovitch CC: Brian Bartholomew , linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 Evan Leibovitch wrote: > On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > > [ Sorry, Evan, most of your ideas are great, but this one's a dud. ] > > You sound like this is a one-man effort. It's not. I'm but one of a group > numbering in the hundreds. > > Besides, I'm not so sure of what your metric of "dudness" is. As I said in > the original message, it's not for everyone. The most skilled Linux people > will neither need nor get certification. Our measure of success is whether > anyone will respect the process and specify the certification. > > Like it or not, human resources people don't want to learn Linux in order > to be able to hire competent Linux people. This is an (admittedly partial) > answer for them. One can rail against such a system all one wants, but the > fact remains that such third-party verification of basic skills is in > demand. Agreed. Where I work, they seriously look at this kind of certification. > > True Linux skill is a well-rounded ability to solve problems: Heh, good one. Don Lafontaine ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 10:02:48 1999 From: "awan kelana" To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:44:40 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Subject: [linux-biz] tell to hostinvestigator.com X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 37 hi guys, get a visit to www.hostinvestigator.com. this site need a comment about NT vs UNIX (maybe LINUX, too). i visited this site 1st Feb 99. i'm not promoting this site, :) (It's true) n.awan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 10:02:47 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:38:43 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: Dwight Johnson cc: Linux-Business , "Bradley J. Willson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: [Fwd: Windows NTools[tm] E-News[tm] - Windows 2000 Expectations] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Dwight Johnson wrote: > On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Jim Hebert wrote: > > > *sigh* I had really hoped this "trend" of posting NT-related stuff to > > linux-biz was going to be short lived. Apparently not. > > I would only like to second your concern. One time was OK, but I'm not After discussing this off list, I'll just throw out that no one else need second or third this: I was plenty mean to him. =) At the same time I am offering to host a mailing list for this sort of discussion if it was of interest to a substantial number of people, and some of those people were willing to actually cull the NT press that they wished to, er, discuss. (Of course, things that were reproduction-restricted in some way I'd hope you'd use your judgement on to keep my liability as list-host down, eh?) Private email please if there is interest. jim volunteering Compu-Aid's hardware again. ;-P ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 10:03:23 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:17:18 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Who is using what? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 This table (the sites the author visits most often) was in the article 'Apple and Linux: What Me Worry?': http://macopinion.com/columns/utopia/feb99/up-46.html www.macosrumors.com Apache 1.3.3 Unix, unspecified www.mactimes.com Apache 1.3.1 Unix, unspecified www.macopinion.com Apache 1.3.3 FreeBSD (1) www.maccentral.com Apache 1.2.5 FreeBSD (2) www.versiontracker.com Apache 1.2.6 FredBSD www.macfixit.com Apache 1.2.5 FreeBSD www.macsonly.com Apache 1.3.3 FreeBSD (1) www.applelinks.com Apache 1.2.5 FreeBSD (2) www.macsurfer.com Apache 1.2.6 Solaris www.macnn.com Apache 1.3.3 Linux www.insanely-great.com Apache 1.2.6 Linux www.enigmaworks.com Apache 1.2.5 Linux www.appleinsider.com Apache 1.3.3 Linux www.mackido.com Apache 1.2.6 Linux www.infoworld.com Apache 1.2.6 IRIX www.stepwise.com Apache 1.2.6 SCO Unix www.macintouch.com Webstar 3.0.1 MacOS applewizards.net Webstar 3.0.2 MacOS www.abbottsys.com Webstar 1.2.1 MacOS (Don Crabb) www.macweek.com Netscape-E 2.01 Solaris (3) www.apple.com Netscape-E 3.5.1C Solaris (3) www.pbs.org Netscape-E 2.01 Solaris (3) www.zdnet.com Netscape-E 3.5.1G Solaris (3) www.macworld.com Netscape-E 2.01 Solaris (3) www.sgi.com Netscape-E 3.5.1G IRIX (3) www.macaddict.com Netscape-E 2.0a n/a (3) probably Unix www.ibm.com Domino-Go AIX www.del.com MS IIS 4.0 WinNT 4 www.gateway.com MS IIS 4.0 WinNT 4 www.compaq.com MS IIS 4.0 WinNT 4 www.intel.com MS IIS 4.0 n/a probably NT 4 (1) & (2): these might be the same system. (3) Netscape Enterprise Dwight -- http://linuxtoday.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 12:01:44 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 04:00:32 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 40 I agree with you that it would be a fine thing to be able to objectively measure someone's Linux skill. And I agree this would be a highly useful thing for both buyers and sellers. And so far as it separates truth from falsehood, it's a good thing. But I don't think you can deliver it. The vendor-based CNE things are just offshoots of their marketing departments. This makes them worth than useless, because they poison attempts to test for true skill. The non-vendor ratings like SAE (auto mechanics) or ISO 9000 are almost as bad. As soon as the lack of a rating starts cutting into sales, the rating is achieved by any means possible, few of them relating to skill in domain. You have two problems, one technical and one legal. The technical problem is, you can't prove someone knows how to compose a piece of music, write a book, design a bridge, or build a computing infrastructure, with a multiple-guess test. The test-evaluating- instrument needs more computing power than you can pack into a bubble scanner. Universities spend five years trying to prove somebody has the basic ability to solve problems, and they fail. The legal problem is that if your ratings are accepted as standard, you will be sued into oblivion. It's a lot cheaper to sue you than to jump through your hoops. The basic function of a certification program is to separate the world into 'know' and 'know-nots'. To pass judgment on people's careers. You need to deal with the concerns generated by the power issues before you can consider the technical ones. I'm sure you're a bunch of upstanding guys and all. But what due process do I have if I don't get the certification I believe I deserve? What is your appeals process? Will you give affirmative- action breaks to minority and veteran-owned businesses? What about people who fail, but tried real hard? These questions are real-world legal fact. If you are successful, you will get these challenges. ----- > The most skilled Linux people will neither need nor get > certification. That doesn't make sense. If you succeed in promoting your certification as a standard, everyone will have to be rated. Why would HR believe an excuse like 'I don't need that certification, I'm too senior'. Anybody can say that. Obviously if you could just dash off the test answers like you claim you could, you would have done so. Therefore, your certification must rank the senior people, too. A certification process encourages HR to use keyword-matching instead of their brains. This is a bad thing. A process that denies someone a job they could legitimately do does not serve the candidate *or* HR. 'Sorry Mr. Torvolds (or Mr. Leibovitch), you don't have the certification we're looking for.' > Like it or not, human resources people don't want to learn Linux in > order to be able to hire competent Linux people. And if you're looking for a honest and competent auto mechanic, just look for the "SAE" sign out front. Can you name a dozen skill-type rating systems you trust your own money to? > We did better than that; one of the group's leaders attended the > SAGE certification session at the last Usenix. They don't know what > they want, they don't know what they don't want, they don't even > know what questions to ask. They've been chasing their tails for > eight years and have no end in sight -- as a result, they will be > simply ignored by those who *do* want a certification program. I will agree with some of that. They do know they don't want the sort of SAT-type standardized test that lends itself to rote memorization without understanding. They do know they can test for the skills they want with personal interviews. They don't know how to package interviews in a form that can be graded on a scanner, and will survive test hacking. If they want to keep SAT-type certifications out of the Unix market, they will have to promote their point of view more actively. SAGE people are often in a hiring role, and if they could winnow their huge pile of inappropriate resumes with a mechanism as cheap as a standardized test, they'd do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, all the tests that are cheap enough to apply in bulk test for a list of trivia, not understanding. I work both sides of the fence here. I'd like a certification that would showcase my ability to perform real tasks in the real world. The sort of certification where my name comes up as the answer to 'who would you like to be stranded on a desert island with, four hours before a tidal wave hits, if you could bring a linux CD, a satellite radio, and a laptop'. On the other hand, I am often called upon to hire people, and I'm looking for somebody who can do a job, not pass tests. I want a candidate with a basic understanding of the task, what the pieces are, what the pieces do, how to debug, and when she is in over her head. I don't get this from knowing the candidate has parroted at least once that a certain file is in /usr/foo/whatsit, because they've memorized a list of questions and answers for a certification test. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 16:14:10 1999 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 05:51:07 -0800 To: Linux Business Mailing List From: rich bodo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 41 First, I have actually found certification exams to be a rather fun way to learn. I have studied with some people who never had the time and money for college degree (the most expensive certification). So this is a non-profit project? Why not run it like every other Linux project, and just post the exams to the web. Someone will. Then people can self-test any time, maybe even during an interview from a random selection of an-ever growing base of questions(HP and Microsoft are drooling). Maybe what Linux needs is a comittee to vote on objectives and related questions, so that the free-exams can be maintained. They don't have to just be mulitple choice, either. The best two certification exams I have seen are the Sun Java Developer Certification Exam and the Cisco exams. SJDC sends a randomly generated programming problem to you requiring knowledge in most areas of Java programming to complete. You complete it and bring it in to the testing center, and proceed to answer essay questions about YOUR solution. When you finish, your solution and your Q&A are e-mailed to a grader. They tell you what you did right or wrong. Cisco has a written test and a lab test. They break things in the lab, and you go in an fix the network. They tell you what you did right or wrong. Both of those exams deserve to cost money. You are paying someone to spend time with you and to grade your work and help you learn from your mistakes. Thankfully, neither one really tries to catch you cheating. Either you want to learn or you don't. There is NO WAY in this day and age anyone in the Linux community should have to pay to have someone look over their shoulder while they answer a multiple choice test that will only be run through a perl script. (Sylvan uses win3.1 and visual basic, even for the java exams, quite repulsive.) In summary, if you want to help, make ALL of the exam materials free. Form a committee to vote on that stuff. Charge for training and grading the labs. -Rich > >A group of people (myself included) have been working for some months, on >a program that would allow Linux skills to be certified by a community >body -- like the Novell CNE scheme, but with differences that make it >uniquely Unix-like. This project is now ready to go public, asking for >further community support while it refines the program. > >Please have a look at http://www.linuxinstitute.org and share your >comments. > >Note: we are fully aware of the debate, in which one side claims Linux >does not need certification at all. We are fully aware that this program >is not for everyone, but that it attempts to serve that portion of the >Linux community to which certification is important. We believe the >existence of a trusted certification program will increase Linux's >acceptance within the business computing mainstream. > >BTW, Dwight, if you see fit to bring this to the attention of Linux Today >readers, it'd be much appreciated. :-) > >-- >evan leibovitch starnix inc. >tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada >http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > From popmail Mon Feb 1 16:54:10 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:43:30 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Linux Business Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 A number of people on this list have written privately to express support for the certification proposal, which by my own admission is in part an attempt to get Linux acceptable to Dilbert's boss. Just the same, this debate is useful. At least some of Brian's points need to be addressed if we are to accomplish what we seek. On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > The vendor-based CNE things are just offshoots of their marketing > departments. This makes them worth than useless, because they poison > attempts to test for true skill. The non-vendor ratings like SAE > (auto mechanics) or ISO 9000 are almost as bad. As soon as the lack > of a rating starts cutting into sales, the rating is achieved by any > means possible, few of them relating to skill in domain. Agreed and understood. This is why some other efforts at certification, which say they will deliver their exams through the web, cannot succeed. Too easy to cheat. We can't be perfect, but to a small extent security will be an important part of the final implementation. > You have two problems, one technical and one legal. > > The technical problem is, you can't prove someone knows how to compose > a piece of music, write a book, design a bridge, or build a computing > infrastructure, with a multiple-guess test. Correct. And we don't intend to try. As I said, what we will be testing will be specific, will *never* pretend to be comprehensive or test "quick thinking" skills. Also, it will be freely available (so that anyone wanting to write books or design training can see what *our* target is). > The legal problem is that if your ratings are accepted as standard, > you will be sued into oblivion. Ah, the American mindset -- not every country is as litigation-crazy as yours. Not all of them allow for lawyers to collect a percentage of the award as a fee, or tolerate frivolous lawsuits as gently. You do make a reasonable case, perhaps, why the certification body, when it does incorporate, should not be based in the US. > It's a lot cheaper to sue you than to jump through your hoops. That all depends on how cheap it is to sue us, now doesn't it ;-)? > The basic function of a certification program is to separate the world > into 'know' and 'know-nots'. ...for those who are anal enough to require such binary decisions, unfortunately yes. The alternative, if they cannot have such distinctions handed to them on a platter, is not to use Linux. > To pass judgment on people's careers. Only to a point. Employers with existing Linux smarts will have less use for our program. > You need to deal with the concerns generated by the power issues > before you can consider the technical ones. And, FWIW, we have people on our committees who are veterans of developing other programs, and may -- we hope -- help us deal with these issues. > I'm sure you're a bunch of upstanding guys and all. But what due > process do I have if I don't get the certification I believe I > deserve? What is your appeals process? A reasonable question, and one I'm sure will need to be addressed. > Will you give affirmative- action breaks to minority and veteran-owned > businesses? Again, think beyond your own borders. You're describing government policy of one country. This program is intended to be launched world-wide, and its board is already multi-national. As such should, it not be susceptable to national politics. It's one thing to be gender and race neutral on an exam -- if any particular society wants to subsidize particular groups, fine, go crazy. It won't affect the exam itself, nor the fact we'll be operating on a cost-recovery basis. > What about people who fail, but tried real hard? These questions are > real-world legal fact. If you are successful, you will get these > challenges. Only, in my experience, from (as you say) Americans who will believe it's easier to sue than to follow the system. You make a compelling case for an international program based outside the US. This has the double advantage of naturally increasing the cost of litigation by Americans, while existing in a jurisdiction less favourable to such entitlement claims. > > The most skilled Linux people will neither need nor get > > certification. > That doesn't make sense. If you succeed in promoting your > certification as a standard, everyone will have to be rated. Nope. Just those who want to get hired/contracted by companies needing the certification. We anticipate that many companies will not need it, or allow existing Linux work to act as a substitute. > A certification process encourages HR to use keyword-matching instead > of their brains. This is a bad thing. Wishful thinking. HR already insists upon keyword-matching whether we encourage it or not. If we don't provide for it, they simply won't hire Linux talent period. This whole process wouldn't be underway, with so many people behind it, if HR wasn't demending it. > A process that denies someone a job they could legitimately do does > not serve the candidate *or* HR. 'Sorry Mr. Torvolds (or Mr. > Leibovitch), you don't have the certification we're looking for.' Then that HR department loses out on people who won't be certified. > > Like it or not, human resources people don't want to learn Linux in > > order to be able to hire competent Linux people. > And if you're looking for a honest and competent auto mechanic, just > look for the "SAE" sign out front. Can you name a dozen skill-type > rating systems you trust your own money to? Again, you're treating certification as the be-all and end-all in a decision-making process; it's but one tool. I won't go to a garage that *doesn't* have certified mechanics, but my final choice between them will be on other criteria. Multiple candidates with equal certification levels will still need to be interviewed; the certification only tests the floor of the skills required, not the ceiling. > > We did better than that; one of the group's leaders attended the > > SAGE certification session at the last Usenix. They don't know what > > they want, they don't know what they don't want, they don't even > > know what questions to ask. They've been chasing their tails for > > eight years and have no end in sight -- as a result, they will be > > simply ignored by those who *do* want a certification program. > I will agree with some of that. They do know they don't want the sort > of SAT-type standardized test that lends itself to rote memorization > without understanding. They do know they can test for the skills they > want with personal interviews. They don't know how to package > interviews in a form that can be graded on a scanner, and will survive > test hacking. If they want to keep SAT-type certifications out of the > Unix market, they will have to promote their point of view more > actively. Well, they've certainly failed so far, else the demand that sparked our effort would never exist. (Followup; Brian suggested that we investigate what SAGE is doing. In fact it's just the opposite. Yesterday SAGE called Dan, the guy from our steering committee who attended that Boston SAGE certification session, asking for him to be a part of the SAGE certfication effort. We must have some ideas they like...) > SAGE people are often in a hiring role, and if they could winnow their > huge pile of inappropriate resumes with a mechanism as cheap as a > standardized test, they'd do it in a heartbeat. And SAGE is massively divided on that issue. Many of its people *want* to do it in a heartbeat, and believe it's possible. Others believe otherwise. The result is an eight-year-old paralyzing standoff. > Unfortunately, all the tests that are cheap enough to apply in bulk > test for a list of trivia, not understanding. Both the facts and the understanding of them are required, no argument there. But just because we can't test for all of it, doesn't mean we shouldn't test for any of it. > I am often called upon to hire people, and I'm looking for somebody > who can do a job, not pass tests. I want a candidate with a basic > understanding of the task, what the pieces are, what the pieces do, > how to debug, and when she is in over her head. I don't get this from > knowing the candidate has parroted at least once that a certain file > is in /usr/foo/whatsit, because they've memorized a list of questions > and answers for a certification test. There are certain AI techniques that people in the group are already suggesting as a way to reduce the ability to pass the exams by simple rote. There are also ways to word questions, such that even multiple-choicers can be extremely challenging to those without understanding. In the meantime, it suits me just fine that people like you can and will do hiring without the need for our certification. Chances are, you will probably end up hiring better people than those who *do* require it because they're inable (or too lazy) to research the minimum skills themselves. However, that doesn't mask the issue that others need certification as an alternative to no minimum standards at all. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 16:54:16 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:50:36 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 04:00:32AM -0500, Brian Bartholomew wrote: ..... > jump through your hoops. The basic function of a certification > program is to separate the world into 'know' and 'know-nots'. To pass > judgment on people's careers. You need to deal with the concerns > generated by the power issues before you can consider the technical .... > > The most skilled Linux people will neither need nor get > > certification. > > That doesn't make sense. If you succeed in promoting your > certification as a standard, everyone will have to be rated. Brian has very eloquently stated what I was thinking. > Why > would HR believe an excuse like 'I don't need that certification, I'm > too senior'. Anybody can say that. Obviously if you could just dash > off the test answers like you claim you could, you would have done so. > Therefore, your certification must rank the senior people, too. This one gives me a laugh and it reminds me of the answer given by the CS department of a major Univ at the freshmen orientation, after the civil (and other engineering) told how all graduates got their XYZ certified engineer when they graduated, the answer was (and it loses the effect without the real school name): "We are Stanford and above all that" - laugh and end of discussion. The reality of certications in the computer field is that they rarely really work OR they are the kind of hiring criteria used by HR, (and other managers) who really don't know what they need, and usually both. Having said all that, I have been considering the certification problem for linux and MIS types and am supportive of the concept but not too pleased with the basic testing approach. How about a peer-rating system ? Granted, this has it's problems too, but it's more in the spirit of the linux world. After all, isn't part of linux and open source about doing things differently ?? -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 16:55:05 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:06:54 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: rich bodo cc: Linux Business Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, rich bodo wrote: > So this is a non-profit project? Why not run it like every other Linux > project, and just post the exams to the web. Someone will. Then people > can self-test any time, maybe even during an interview from a random > selection of an-ever growing base of questions(HP and Microsoft are > drooling). This approach is being actively debated. The main objection is that the kind of questions which can best determine understanding are not easily producable in huge quantities. I don't claim to have the answer, and I'm not part of the sub-group thrashing that out. > Maybe what Linux needs is a comittee to vote on objectives and > related questions, so that the free-exams can be maintained. They don't > have to just be mulitple choice, either. One of our goals is to freely publish the goals to be tested by our exams. We hope that many third parties will produce study materials, some of them freely available. > SJDC sends a randomly generated programming problem to you requiring > knowledge in most areas of Java programming to complete. You complete it > and bring it in to the testing center, and proceed to answer essay > questions about YOUR solution. When you finish, your solution and your Q&A > are e-mailed to a grader. They tell you what you did right or wrong. > > Cisco has a written test and a lab test. They break things in the lab, and > you go in an fix the network. They tell you what you did right or wrong. > > Both of those exams deserve to cost money. You are paying someone to spend > time with you and to grade your work and help you learn from your mistakes. > Thankfully, neither one really tries to catch you cheating. Either you > want to learn or you don't. All these approaches are being considered. We're trying to strike a delicate balance between being thorough, accessible, and trusted by the organizations that want such certification in the first place. No matter what compromise we choose, we will get complaints about being too expensive, or too trivial, or too insecure. But the difficulty of making a program should not prevent one from happening. > There is NO WAY in this day and age anyone in the Linux community should > have to pay to have someone look over their shoulder while they answer a > multiple choice test that will only be run through a perl script. (Sylvan > uses win3.1 and visual basic, even for the java exams, quite repulsive.) I like to think I've gone beyond insulting people or organizations based on their choice of tools. What matters is the end product. > In summary, if you want to help, make ALL of the exam materials free. That all depends -- who are we trying to help? Who are the *primary* consumers of a certification program? This is not a conventional Linux project -- it is not being made by developers for developers. > Form a committee to vote on that stuff. Charge for training and > grading the labs. Look at the website. We have plenty of committees already. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 17:50:57 1999 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:05:36 +0100 From: Cyril Chaboisseau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux-Business Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Who is using what? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 Dwight Johnson wrote: > > This table (the sites the author visits most often) was in the article > 'Apple and Linux: What Me Worry?': > http://macopinion.com/columns/utopia/feb99/up-46.html [...] for those who are interrested in such surveys, here is another OS/site list at http://lwn.net/1998/1022/osprefs.html from the author of nmap (more advanced successor of queso, another OS detector+) # "Hacker" sites www.l0pht.com => OpenBSD 2.2 - 2.4 www.insecure.org => Linux 2.0.31-34 www.rhino9.ml.org => Windows 95/NT # No comment :) www.technotronic.com => Linux 2.0.31-34 www.2600.com => FreeBSD 2.2.6 - 3.0 Beta www.kevinmitnick.com => Linux 2.0.31-34 # Free Kevin! www.antionline.com => FreeBSD 2.2.6 - 3.0 Beta www.rootshell.com => Linux 2.0.35 # Security vendors, consultants, etc. www.repsec.com => Linux 2.0.35 www.iss.net => Linux 2.0.31-34 www.checkpoint.com => Solaris 2.5 - 2.51 www.infowar.com => Win95/NT # Vendor loyalty to their OS www.li.org => Linux 2.0.35 # Linux International www.redhat.com => Linux 2.0.31-34 # I wonder what distribution :) www.debian.org => Linux 2.0.35 www.linux.org => Linux 2.1.122 # Might be another 2.1.X version www.sgi.com => IRIX 6.2 - 6.4 www.netbsd.org => NetBSD 1.3X www.openbsd.org => Solaris 2.6 # Ahem :) www.freebsd.org => FreeBSD 2.2.6-3.0 Beta # Ivy league www.harvard.edu => Solaris 2.6 www.yale.edu => Solaris 2.5 - 2.51 www.caltech.edu => SunOS 4.1.2-4.1.4 # Hello! This is the 90's :) www.mit.edu => Solaris 2.5 - 2.51 # Coincidence that the good # schools all seem to like Sun? # perhaps it is the 40% .edu # discount. # Lamer sites www.aol.com => IRIX 6.2 - 6.4 # No wonder they are so insecure :) www.happyhacker.org => OpenBSD 2.2-2.4 # Sick of being owned, Carolyn? # Misc www.lwn.net => Linux 2.0.31-34 # This Linux news site rocks! www.whitehouse.gov => IRIX 5.3 and the (unfortunately stopped) OSI counter which gave Linux approximately 30% of all systems on the Internet back in Sept. 1998 : http://www.hzo.cubenet.de/ioscount/ (anyone willing to continue such a survey ?!) -- Cyril Chaboisseau mailto:Cyril.Chaboisseau@Obs.CoE.int ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 17:51:06 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:26:34 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: rfi from Rich Roth cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, rfi from Rich Roth wrote: > I have been considering the certification problem for linux and MIS > types and am supportive of the concept but not too pleased with the > basic testing approach. > How about a peer-rating system ? Granted, this has it's problems too, but > it's more in the spirit of the linux world. After all, isn't part of linux > and open source about doing things differently ?? Please feel welcome to join the program committee and help advance that route. While we look around and see the programs that have already succeeded in this field, we're also aware that Linux has changed the rules of a great many games. This is not a closed shop. The committees are open to anyone who wants to get involved. http://www.linuxinstitute.org/tli/involved.html -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 17:51:11 1999 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:29:02 -0500 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Bill White Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 I have two random thoughts about this: 1.) How often do you go to a physician or a dentist who doesn't have a medical degree? How often do you buy a house using an attourney who doesn't have a law degree? How about someone who hasn't passed the bar or the medical examinations? It might be possible to learn medicine or law without going to a law school, and there may uncertified doctors or lawyers who are more skilled and knowledgeable than certified doctors or lawyers, but I wouldn't use them. 2.) If the result of this exercize is to decide (a) who knows their stuff, (b) what the stuff is, and (3) figure out how to teach people to know their stuff, maybe part of the certification at linuxinstitute.org should be a web-based course which one could take. I know that Sun has some sort of Java related course which is offered in conjunction with some Canadian University, and which at one time could be found by looking through their Web site. I don't know anything about the quality of this course. I realize this is a big investment of time, but it seems like what is wanted. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 19:43:23 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:26:38 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 > SJDC sends a randomly generated programming problem to you requiring > knowledge in most areas of Java programming to complete. You > complete it and bring it in to the testing center, and proceed to > answer essay questions about YOUR solution. When you finish, your > solution and your Q&A are e-mailed to a grader. They tell you what > you did right or wrong. > Cisco has a written test and a lab test. They break things in the > lab, and you go in an fix the network. They tell you what you did > right or wrong. That sort of testing has promise. But consider what Kaplan or another test prep company would do to you. "Check this list of 20 things, that's what they always break." Think of defending from test hacking as a crypto problem. If the set of solutions is small, it will eventually be found. If you put the test sources up, it will be found immediately. If the set of solutions is large, the test is unmanagable or too expensive. > Ah, the American mindset -- not every country is as litigation-crazy > as yours. Having dated a Canadian woman, I recognize your opinion as valid. And I wish the US was not this way. But it is, and the US is likely to be the biggest market for your certifications. Perhaps you can succeed with a headquarters based elsewhere. But that works against you, too, by making it harder to prosecute the misuse of your certifications. > And SAGE is massively divided on that issue. Many of its people > *want* to do it in a heartbeat, and believe it's possible. Others > believe otherwise. The result is an eight-year-old paralyzing > standoff. Perhaps the outcome is a wise decision. The CNE stuff is just awful, and until something reasonable is invented, a duplicate of CNE in Unix space should be prevented. > How about a peer-rating system? Too susceptable to gamesmanship. I'll rate you high if you rate me high. Especially if I get another $10-20K a year for it. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 19:44:26 1999 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 09:32:20 -0800 From: Collette McNeill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] off-topic kind of morning X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 Hi Linux guys, sorry for the off-topic request but Im reaching the end of my rope Im searching for a cgi/perl discussion group... (Im obsessively trying to modify a formmail script to allow file attachments.) can anyone point me in the right direction? thanks in advance!! collette ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 20:01:16 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:12:08 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > Cisco has a written test and a lab test. They break things in the > > lab, and you go in an fix the network. They tell you what you did > > right or wrong. > > That sort of testing has promise. But consider what Kaplan or another > test prep company would do to you. "Check this list of 20 things, > that's what they always break." Think of defending from test hacking > as a crypto problem. If the set of solutions is small, it will > eventually be found. If you put the test sources up, it will be found > immediately. If the set of solutions is large, the test is > unmanagable or too expensive. One of the proposed solutions is to have a random selection, so that any given exam delivers 100 (or so) questions picked from a pool of thousands. All of the thousands of questions are then publicly accessible -- if someone can memorize them all, they probably possess the minimum basic for some Linux skills by the sheer process of learning the questions ;-). This kind of course will still be reasonably inexpensive, and it falls within the limits of what testing bodies such as Sylvan are capable of doing. But it will take time to develop the tonnage of questions necessary to make this scheme work. It appears to be where we're headed, long-term if not short-term. I do not dispute your assertion that no course or exam will adequately prepare one for being able to cope with the unexpected -- but that's not a Linux-specific issue IMO. However, there is also a significant demand for people that know how to do pre-defined tasks and are not expected to problem-solve. > > Ah, the American mindset -- not every country is as litigation-crazy > > as yours. > Having dated a Canadian woman, I recognize your opinion as valid. And > I wish the US was not this way. But it is, and the US is likely to be > the biggest market for your certifications. Perhaps you can succeed > with a headquarters based elsewhere. But that works against you, too, > by making it harder to prosecute the misuse of your certifications. There is a minimal intent to use courts to enforce the certificates, considering that we intend to deploy them worldwide. (And note that, per capita, Linux appears to be more popular outside North America than in.) Legally enforcing certificates would be just as difficult in the third world as in the US, maybe moreso. So it's not an avenue we intend to use. There are steps we can take to verify, rather than enforce, certificates; we can't possibly cover every possible fraud, but we can at least take reasonable steps. For instance, legitimately obtained certificates will be listed on a publicly-accessible database, allowing an employer to verify (to a point) that an applicant's claims of reaching a level are genuine. As always, there is the balance between security of the system and privacy of the individual -- we will do what we can in this area. > The CNE stuff is just awful, and until something reasonable is > invented, a duplicate of CNE in Unix space should be prevented. Too late. Heard of the SCO ACE program? Far more successful (at getting people certified) than you may think. Besides, I don't share your disgust at the CNE program. So long as it's not a source of unreasonable expectations, it serves a valid purpose. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 20:01:20 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:40:31 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 10:29:02AM -0500, Bill White wrote: > 1.) How often do you go to a physician or a dentist who doesn't have a medical > degree? How often do you buy a house using an attourney who doesn't have > a law degree? How about someone who hasn't passed the bar or the medical I have a problem with this statement - while I only go to medical practitioners with some kind of certification, that is largely because they can't legally practice medicine at some level without certification. On the other hand, we use chiropractors and naturopaths and they have constantly been prevented from offering their services because the 'regular' doctors prevented them from being certified. I also have personal experience (my wife was one) with the history of mid-wifes in the US. It has been a nightmare of the controllers of certification blocking their practice, due to financial considerations, EVEN though they provided better and safer care (this has been statistically documented world wide too) -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 1 22:01:02 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:01:46 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 52 On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 12:26:38PM -0500, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > How about a peer-rating system? > > Too susceptable to gamesmanship. I'll rate you high if you rate me > high. Especially if I get another $10-20K a year for it. Not an acceptable response, discounting an option with that kind of response would have us all using M$ sw and will get us no where. Besides doctors and lawyers have shown how a test based but peer managed system is just as corruptable. More to the point, check out eBAY, the rating system is trust based and does guide buyers quite nicely -- perhaps because it is the buyers doing the rating -- but then how do you get started. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 00:02:48 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:15:22 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 53 > One of the proposed solutions is to have a random selection, so that > any given exam delivers 100 (or so) questions picked from a pool of > thousands. All of the thousands of questions are then publicly > accessible Which means someone can put up a "give yourself a certification" web page which automatically looks up the answers for you. > Besides doctors and lawyers have shown how a test based but peer > managed system is just as corruptable. Right. You've discovered that system is structurally flawed and will never work well. So don't clone that system, try something different. > check out eBAY, the rating system is trust based and does guide > buyers quite nicely -- perhaps because it is the buyers doing the > rating -- but then how do you get started. Ebay works because the structure of the game is different. Those colluding can't silence the legitimate negative reports. With peer ratings we collude once to get the rating, and that's it. > Not an acceptable response, discounting an option with that kind of > response would have us all using M$ sw and will get us no where. Then try thinking of test design as a security exercise. Develop a testing system that (a) has merit, which means it tests Linux skills and not test-taking skills, and (b) cannot be fooled by any size collusion that is likely to develop. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 06:01:04 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:32:12 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Reasons to use linux - from ZD X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 54 How to Persuade Your Boss to Take the Linux Plunge A fairly short but useful list of whys -- just deep enuf for many 'MIS bosses' http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3011.html -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 06:01:09 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:47:39 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > One of the proposed solutions is to have a random selection, so that > > any given exam delivers 100 (or so) questions picked from a pool of > > thousands. All of the thousands of questions are then publicly > > accessible > Which means someone can put up a "give yourself a certification" web > page which automatically looks up the answers for you. I don't have a problem with this. If someone, having gone through such a site, can train themselves sufficiently to take the exam, then more power to them. I continue to maintain that a certification is a *partial* answer to the question "who to hire", and that there are many ways to learn the basic facts and repetitive tasks. Anyone who wants to publish a book, develop a course, or design a website that helps people study for the exam(s), are more than welcome to do so. The problem of "studying to the questions" becomes harder if there are thousands of possible questions to study to and/or memorize, of which only a random small subset will be on any given exam. > Then try thinking of test design as a security exercise. Develop a > testing system that (a) has merit, which means it tests Linux skills > and not test-taking skills, and (b) cannot be fooled by any size > collusion that is likely to develop. A worthwhile goal. I suggest, however, that even if the proposed solutions are imperfect, they may still have value to some. This need not be a perfection-or-nothing binary decision. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 06:01:16 1999 From: "Cary O'Brien" To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:59:37 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Linux Samba vs NT, benchmarks too bad to print X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 56 Many of you I'm sure read the recent ziff-davis articles, both very pro-linux. http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,387766,00.html titled: "Linux: Enterprise-ready". http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/issue/0,4537,2196106,00.html titled : "The Best Windows File Server: Linux!". One might wonder why although the first article had head-to-head Linux vs NT comparisons, the second one didn't. The reason comes from none other then Jeremy Allison, the Samba guy. Quoting from comp.os.linux.advocacy... ------------------------ quote ----------------------------- There are no comparitive NT numbers in this benchmark. The reason for that is that NT on the multiprocessor box performed so poorly in the test (a factor of 5 slower than Samba) that both PC Week and myself were convinced that something was wrong with the NT tuning. The problem was that NT refused to use more that 300MB of memory for file cache (despite tweaking the only public setting that NT allows to modify this). Even searchin all Microsoft technical references and Web pages on NT tuning did not allow us to find anything to force NT to use more memory for disk cache. On the Linux side I used to documentation in /usr/src/linux/Documentation/vm to set the disk cache size to 80% of all available memory. Hope these numbers are interesting to people - use them as you will :-) :-). Regards, Jeremy Allison, Samba Team. ------------------------ end quote ----------------------------- -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 06:01:58 1999 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:42:24 -0500 From: "Peter A. Daly" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.1.131 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Cary O'Brien" CC: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Samba vs NT, benchmarks too bad to print X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 57 Would it be possible to "retry" the other tests? The more numbers the better when convincing management why to consider Linux. If the results are the same, then that should be published. I have a hard time believing NT requires more tuning than TechNet and Ziff-Labs can figure out...if that is really the problem . What would it take to organize such a test again by a major publication? -Pete Cary O'Brien wrote: > ------------------------ quote ----------------------------- > > There are no comparitive NT numbers in this benchmark. > > The reason for that is that NT on the multiprocessor box performed > so poorly in the test (a factor of 5 slower than Samba) that > both PC Week and myself were convinced that something was wrong > with the NT tuning. > > The problem was that NT refused to use more that 300MB > of memory for file cache (despite tweaking the only > public setting that NT allows to modify this). Even > searchin all Microsoft technical references and Web > pages on NT tuning did not allow us to find anything > to force NT to use more memory for disk cache. > > On the Linux side I used to documentation in > /usr/src/linux/Documentation/vm ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 06:02:05 1999 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:05:22 -0500 From: "Peter A. Daly" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.1.131 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "linux-biz@lege.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Production Quality Archiving? / NDS for Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 I am possibly looking for production quality software to do file archiving. Here is what I invision the software doing. Once a night, a "script" will examine a directory structure, and move all files which have not been modified in "X" days into a seperate directory structure (Optical Jukebox.) It will then create a symbolic link where the old file was, appearing to Samba to be the same file. When the link is accessed through Samba, it should open the origional file, when is now located in the other directory (Optical JukeBox.) Does such a thing exist in a form that can be considered for a mission critical application? Second Question: I have the need to provide access to a Windows NT share to users logging into an NDS Tree using Intranetware client. Most of the users do not have the "Microsoft Client" installed, or NT accounts. Does anyone know how I can do this? I assume NDS for NT can do this, but it is very expensive. I know how to do this with the older linux novell 3.12 emulators, but they do not appear in the NDS tree, and therefor cannot be easily mapped/authenticated. I have heard Caldera has some type of NDS intagration, but I do not know if it is anything more than just a client. Any ideas on how to do either of these two tasks? -Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 06:02:29 1999 From: Con Zymaris To: pdaly@usa.net (Peter A. Daly) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:47:41 +1100 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Production Quality Archiving? / NDS for Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 > I am possibly looking for production quality software to do file > archiving. Here is what I invision the software doing. > > Once a night, a "script" will examine a directory structure, and move > all files which have not been modified in "X" days into a seperate > directory structure (Optical Jukebox.) It will then create a symbolic > link where the old file was, appearing to Samba to be the same file. > When the link is accessed through Samba, it should open the origional > file, when is now located in the other directory (Optical JukeBox.) > > Does such a thing exist in a form that can be considered for a mission > critical application? > this is a standard HSM file system, but I don't know if one exists for Linux. Anyone, perhaps the following will be of use. I'm not sure if it answers all your needs, but it's worth checking out: http://www.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CnNxS0bKbytaYnZK&FQ=Linux&SymHd l=1&Nav=na-search-&StoryTitle=Linux Spectra Logic Announces New Version of Alexandria Backup and Archival Librarian Software New Version Adds Linux Support, Provides Greater Functionality, Ease-of-Use, and Reliability Spectra Logic Corp. Tuesday announced the availability of Version 4.50 of its award winning Alexandria Backup and Archival Librarian software. Alexandria 4.50 adds a number of significant new features to provide users with greater functionality, reliability, and ease-of-use for backup and recovery of large distributed databases and data center applications. .... > > -Pete > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > con _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Windows Systems Administration and Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia From popmail Tue Feb 2 06:02:40 1999 From: Ray Atnip Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 03:11:11 GMT To: "Peter A. Daly" CC: "linux-biz@lege.com" X-Mailer: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; StarOffice/5.0; Unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Production Quality Archiving? / NDS for Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On 2/1/99, 8:05:22 PM, "Peter A. Daly" wrote regarding [linux-biz] Production Quality Archiving? / NDS for Linux: > I am possibly looking for production quality software to do file > archiving. Here is what I invision the software doing. > Once a night, a "script" will examine a directory structure, and move > all files which have not been modified in "X" days into a seperate > directory structure (Optical Jukebox.) It will then create a symbolic > link where the old file was, appearing to Samba to be the same file. > When the link is accessed through Samba, it should open the origional > file, when is now located in the other directory (Optical JukeBox.) > Does such a thing exist in a form that can be considered for a mission > critical application? IBM's ADSM does backups and HSM. There is an unsupported client for Linux but the server would need to run on AIX, NT, Solaris, HP-UX, or mainframe. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 18:01:54 1999 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:13:00 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: "Peter A. Daly" cc: "linux-biz@lege.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Production Quality Archiving? / NDS for Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Peter A. Daly wrote: > I am possibly looking for production quality software to do file > archiving. Here is what I invision the software doing. > > Once a night, a "script" will examine a directory structure, and move > all files which have not been modified in "X" days into a seperate > directory structure (Optical Jukebox.) It will then create a symbolic > link where the old file was, appearing to Samba to be the same file. > When the link is accessed through Samba, it should open the origional > file, when is now located in the other directory (Optical JukeBox.) I imagine that this is reasonably easily done with find using -mnewer or something and a cron job that touches "control" files, or probably more robustly done with a 25 line perl script. *sigh* I wish it wasn't crunch time for me or I'd write this. ;-) jim > Does such a thing exist in a form that can be considered for a mission > critical application? This is open source, let's write one! Then we'll get people to bang on it long enough that someone trusts it to do something "mission critical" and then the answer will be yes. =) I'm smiling but not joking. Seriously, there's some smart perl hackers on this list, who's up to this? > Second Question: > I have the need to provide access to a Windows NT share to users logging > into an NDS Tree using Intranetware client. Most of the users do not > have the "Microsoft Client" installed, or NT accounts. Does anyone know > how I can do this? I assume NDS for NT can do this, but it is very > expensive. I know how to do this with the older linux novell 3.12 > emulators, but they do not appear in the NDS tree, and therefor cannot > be easily mapped/authenticated. I have heard Caldera has some type of > NDS intagration, but I do not know if it is anything more than just a > client. Ahh... I see, you want something that can essentially "mount" a smb share and export it as a ncp share, right? This is doable, I would think, to some very limited extent. If you require nds (as opposed to 3.12 style, as you indicate) then yes, you will probably need something from caldera (they have a free 5 user netware-for-linux iirc, that you can upgrade to more users for $$). Then I suppose (barring any restriction in the nds server about re-exporting filesystems) that you could mount -t smb '\\whatever\whatever' /what/ever then export that with the nds product. All of this is totally speculative though, and also would take a lot of configuration per-user that you wished to support, since you mount the smb share "as" someone and that would determine what rights the person logging into the linux-nds server would get (as opposed to nfs where the one share 'correctly' maps multiple users' permissions onto one share-session). I'd imagine you'd be stuck doing "smb_mount, as fred, using fred's password, \\server\directory, /mnt/server/directory-for-fred" "smb_mount, as bill, using bill's password, \\server\directory, /mnt/server/directory-for-bill" then for the nds server mapping the drive letters (in whatever creative way you wished) on a user by user basis (ie the guy logging in as bill to the nds server would need to get directed towards /mnt/server/directory-for-bill and so forth in order to make the permissions on the smb server correctly reflect all that. At Compu-Aid a (long) time ago we did somewhat the opposite: all the clients were configured to mount this netware drive. it was a big mess, and way too hairy to migrate all the files to linux. So we mounted the drive on the linux server as the supervisor (ie had full permissions) and then just rexported that drive with samba. Then ran around and changed all the clients at our convenience. Then finally one night did a cp -a of the netware data onto a linu local drive and the migration was complete. Not terribly relevant, I admit. =) I guess the point of it was that you don't "hve" to make a per-user case for the permissions sake if you're content to just give everyone the same permissions. =) Side note: I wonder if autofs with "executable maps" could solve this problem for you. I know so little about that..... jim ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 18:01:57 1999 From: "Cary O'Brien" To: pdaly@usa.net (Peter A. Daly) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:33:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Production Quality Archiving? / NDS for Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 > > I am possibly looking for production quality software to do file > archiving. Here is what I invision the software doing. > > Once a night, a "script" will examine a directory structure, and move > all files which have not been modified in "X" days into a seperate > directory structure (Optical Jukebox.) It will then create a symbolic > link where the old file was, appearing to Samba to be the same file. > When the link is accessed through Samba, it should open the origional > file, when is now located in the other directory (Optical JukeBox.) > > Does such a thing exist in a form that can be considered for a mission > critical application? > Sounds like a job for the "Translucent File System". This allowed you to mount a rw magnetic disk filesystem on top of a read-only file system. Changes would create a file on the rw file system replacing (in this view) the file on the read-only file system. This is from SunOs 4.something, I don't know of it is in solaris. I think some of the BSD unixes have this, but I don't think it is called 'Translucent'. Or it might just be a bunch of scripts. How many files? Thousands? you could probably do it with a script if you had mountable optical drives. The fact that it is accessed by Samba is not that relavent. Unless you want to modify samba (a user-mode program) to pull the things from the archive when they are accessed. Hmm.... That would be interesting.... And since Samba is 5x faster than NT, people might not know you were pulling the files from an archive. > > Second Question: > I have the need to provide access to a Windows NT share to users logging > into an NDS Tree using Intranetware client. Most of the users do not > have the "Microsoft Client" installed, or NT accounts. Does anyone know > how I can do this? I assume NDS for NT can do this, but it is very > expensive. I know how to do this with the older linux novell 3.12 > emulators, but they do not appear in the NDS tree, and therefor cannot > be easily mapped/authenticated. I have heard Caldera has some type of > NDS intagration, but I do not know if it is anything more than just a > client. > Way beyond me. -- cary > Any ideas on how to do either of these two tasks? > > -Pete > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > From popmail Tue Feb 2 18:03:32 1999 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:58:42 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 63 > Which means someone can put up a "give yourself a certification" web > page which automatically looks up the answers for you. | I don't have a problem with this. | | If someone, having gone through such a site, can train themselves | sufficiently to take the exam, then more power to them. That wasn't what I meant. Suppose J. Random Cheater signs up with linuxinstitute.org for web-based certification. You send him a web page containing a selection of publically-available questions. JRC goes to getcertifiednow.com, puts his VISA number in one field, and pastes the html you sent him in the other. Getcertified charges him $250 and ships him back a web page with the answers. JRC answers your questions, and follows Getcertified's advice to make a mistake on #23 and #42, the hard ones. You award him a (now meaningless) certificate. And when JRC gets a job over another candidate who honestly failed the test, you've penalized the honest people for being honest. This severely annoys them. The chance that JRC ever gets called on his bogus certification is minimal. People check certifications by seeing if the school claims them -- and JRC is legitimately on the rolls. The standard answer to this problem is requiring the testee to show up physically and be proctored by a human. You may be able to push the proctoring out into the community as a volunteer service. A financial security type could tell you what cash handling procedures are necessary to have volunteers proctor securely. As I understand it, these security designs work by dispersing the auditing so that a too-large number of people need to take too-much of a risk to collude. Or the proctoring could be done at no charge as marketing for a consulting/training firm. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 18:05:06 1999 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:39:00 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: "linux-biz@lege.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Production Quality Archiving? / NDS for Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 On Mon, Feb 01, 1999 at 09:05:22PM -0500, Peter A. Daly wrote: > I am possibly looking for production quality software to do file > archiving. Here is what I invision the software doing. > > Once a night, a "script" will examine a directory structure, and move > all files which have not been modified in "X" days into a seperate > directory structure (Optical Jukebox.) It will then create a symbolic Sounds a lot like: Logrotate: "Normally, logrotate is run as a daily cron job. It will not modify a log multiple times in one day unless the criterium for that log is based on the log's size and logro- tate is being run multiple times each day." This is standard on Redhat systems (at least 5.0 and up). You probably have to add a script (or code changes) to deal with the replacement symlink -- personally, it seems what would produces far too many file stubs -- I just move archive files to a save directory and then off to a Jaz, and then cdrom (or bit bucket ) on a periodic basis. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 2 18:05:55 1999 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:06:53 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 65 On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > | If someone, having gone through such a site, can train themselves > | sufficiently to take the exam, then more power to them. > That wasn't what I meant. Suppose J. Random Cheater signs up with > linuxinstitute.org for web-based certification. There will be no such thing as web-based exam testing as far as we are concerned... > You send him a web page containing a selection of publically-available > questions. JRC goes to getcertifiednow.com, puts his VISA number in > one field, and pastes the html you sent him in the other. > Getcertified charges him $250 and ships him back a web page with the > answers. JRC answers your questions, and follows Getcertified's > advice to make a mistake on #23 and #42, the hard ones. You award him > a (now meaningless) certificate. Getcertified is welcome to send (and charge) JRC anything it wants, but he can't take it into the exam room with him. JRC won't know what the exam is until he goes to take it in a closed environment. > The standard answer to this problem is requiring the testee to show up > physically and be proctored by a human. You may be able to push the > proctoring out into the community as a volunteer service. In the short term, we are committed to using a commercial delivery/ proctoring service such as Sylvan or VUE. This will allow us to concentrate on the tests themselves in the beginning. As the system matures, we will investigate alternative delivery methods. But web-based delivery has been totally discredited as far as we are concerned. Your scenario is but one reason why. > A financial security type could tell you what cash handling > procedures are necessary to have volunteers proctor securely. As I > understand it, these security designs work by dispersing the auditing > so that a too-large number of people need to take too-much of a risk > to collude. Or the proctoring could be done at no charge as marketing > for a consulting/training firm. A branch of the group is already looking into longer-term replacement schemes, possibly administered by user groups or academic institutions (or existing testing centres) under contract. Security of the system is a very high concern, to be certain -- web-based testing was dismissed as totally inadequate very early on. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 3 12:01:12 1999 Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 22:02:45 -0700 From: Zed Shaw To: "'Evan Leibovitch'" , "'linux-biz@lege.com'" MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [linux-biz] RE: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 66 I've been looking at the web site and listening to the traffic on the list, and I'd like to add a couple of things. While I think that the discussion of the technical aspects of how to test people are important, I think that maybe a couple of ethical issues are being ignored. Let me say that I advocate some form of certification. I think that it would be nice to have some place to go where you can learn to use Linux and be able to prove it. But I do have some reservations. My first problem with certification is the motivation behind any such attempts. I'm afraid that this Linux certification will turn into another attempt for those who currently have Jobs to place limits on those who are trying to enter the profession. Just take a look at the Legal, Accounting, or any trade profession (plumbing, auto-mechanic, etc.) All of these professions started with some sort of certification, which was created and administered by those already in the professions (which seems a little odd for an independent review of skills). As the demand for these professionals increased (and thus the supply threatened to increase), these professional organizations started to raise the requirements to join. First, you needed to pass the CPA, then you needed a BS in Accounting, now you need an MS to do many accounting jobs. The same is happening to many other professions, and it all starts when someone tries to control who can enter the profession. I believe this is simply an attempt by people in the profession to keep their skills marketable and has nothing to do with actual ability testing. If the motivation behind certification were to test skills, these organizations (i.e. the ones who currently do testing) would leave the control of the test in the hands of an independent agency. Similar to the way ETS does testing for university entrance exams (although, that could stand some improvement too). Instead, these organizations control all entry into the profession, and thus control the number of people challenging their employment status. Also, as long as a small number of people can control who is in a profession, the standards of the profession are not governed by market pressure to improve, and thus stagnate. While I don't think anyone on this list is interested in anything like this, I still think certification is a very dangerous road to follow. If it's done, there must be controls in place to keep the certifications from becoming a requirement to enter the profession. That way, the idea of Linux being open can continue with it's certification exams. My second criticism is that I feel a certification exam would turn into just one more money making scheme. At first it would become a nice test that is freely available. Then, when a market shows up, people will have to buy books, and take classes, and pay for tests. Pretty soon, those trying to enter the profession would have to pay thousands of dollars just to prove that they can "hack" around with Linux (which is really all any of us do, certified or not). So, while my fears may be unfounded, I see no attempt by this organization to keep this from happening. I appreciate the Linux community for its openness more than anything else. Only in the Linux community, will you find people who are willing to help anyone learn Linux. Just look at the social phenomenon surrounding Linux. We have install parties, more newsgroups than anything, advocates coming from every corner of the world, and people making software for others just 'cause they wanna. I think a certification program would ruin this, and turn Linux into just another NT. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 3 12:01:26 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:36:38 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Zed Shaw cc: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] RE: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Zed Shaw wrote: > My first problem with certification is the motivation behind any such > attempts. I'm afraid that this Linux certification will turn into another > attempt for those who currently have Jobs to place limits on those who are > trying to enter the profession. Just take a look at the Legal, Accounting, > or any trade profession (plumbing, auto-mechanic, etc.) All of these > professions started with some sort of certification, which was created and > administered by those already in the professions (which seems a little odd > for an independent review of skills). As the demand for these professionals > increased (and thus the supply threatened to increase), these professional > organizations started to raise the requirements to join. First, you needed > to pass the CPA, then you needed a BS in Accounting, now you need an MS to > do many accounting jobs. The same is happening to many other professions, > and it all starts when someone tries to control who can enter the > profession. I see your point, but would approach it from a slightly less conspiratorial angle. I agree with the issue of supply and demand, but suggest that it's the employers, not the certifiers, that are driving the demand for such standards. When supply of would-be Linux professionals exceeds demand, employers can be more picky, raising the bar to whatever level they see fit. Then, a certification is just one of many possible ways that a job applicant improves their chances when competing against uncertified competition. If demand exceeds supply, the certification has little meaning, as employers take whatever they can find. I can just offer some small amount of real-world experience. Sometimes, up to a third of my own consulting work has involved cleaning up after other "consultants" have screwed things up and buggered off. It wasn't just that they lacked a "knack" for problem solving (which I agree can't easily be tested). These dolts didn't even get the basic mechanics right -- the format of crontab, the setting of permissions, IP netmasks, the location of files. People who are old Linux vets may sneer, but even such basic skills are not a given. At least a certification will indicate some understanding of the underlying mechanics of a Linux system, and the ability to do commonly-required tasks. I may never be able to convince anyone here, but from what I've seen, the pressure to have certification has come from a number of segments: - trainers, wanting a known target of skills to train to: - employers, whose HR departments are too lazy to be able to check out basic Linux qualifications themselves, want to trust someone else to do it for them - newcomers to Linux, wanting to know what skills are required by said employers Linux veterans and experienced admins -- the group with the greatest interest in keeping out newcomers based on your theory -- has not been pushing for this at all. > If the motivation behind certification were to test skills, these > organizations (i.e. the ones who currently do testing) would leave the > control of the test in the hands of an independent agency. It is for this reason that The Linux Institute is designed as a non-profit community group. While we may solicit sponsorship and endorsemenmts, the group is specifically intended to be independent of any vendor(s). > Also, as long as a small number of people can control who is in a > profession, the standards of the profession are not governed by market > pressure to improve, and thus stagnate. If you've visited the website you'll know that our decision-making processes are open, and newcomers are invited to participate. > My second criticism is that I feel a certification exam would turn into just > one more money making scheme. At first it would become a nice test that is > freely available. Then, when a market shows up, people will have to buy > books, and take classes, and pay for tests. That's why the certification is exam-based only, and intends to make the exam subject matter totally open. That way, anyone can develop study materials or courseware, commercial or free. It also allows anyone who is sufficiently self-taught, to walk in and take the tests with no pre-requisite classes, books, or anything else. The exams themselves will be operated on a cost-recovery basis only. The above is a fundamental principle of The Linux Institute. The model on which we are working involves three levels, each level requiring passing of two exams. Based on rough guesses, I'd say the exams will cost about $75 each. Total cost -- $150 per level. Anything else you spend on preparation is at your discretion. > Pretty soon, those trying to enter the profession would have to pay > thousands of dollars just to prove that they can "hack" around with > Linux (which is really all any of us do, certified or not). Here, we differ. In professional settings, IMO, one does not "hack". One does not do exploratory research on a company's critical servers, nor does untested 'upgrades'. One does the minimal requisite maintenance of a system to maximize performance, security and uptime. IMO, hacking should be limited to "hackers'" systems. Note that I am not discounting the need to hack -- I merely dispute the assertion that *all* Linux work is hacking. > We have install parties, more newsgroups than anything, advocates coming > from every corner of the world, and people making software for others just > 'cause they wanna. I think a certification program would ruin this, and > turn Linux into just another NT. You've totally changed the logic between the body of your comments and this conclusion. I ask you to explain how the mere existence of a certification program will inhibit those who develop software for Linux from continuing to do so. Certification satisfies the needs of a fairly small (but IMO) part of the Linux community. I fail to see why others in the community would oppose this group's needs being met, or what threats they feel threatened from it. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 3 12:02:43 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 02:50:06 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 How's this for an answer: You're both right. And you're both wrong. Both the sets of agendas exist and are acting simultaneously in the workplace at once. The mistake is thinking that one agenda directly and completely reverses the actions of the other. In actuality, the interaction is unsymmetrical. The evil, union agenda is more effective at squashing truth than the truth is at fighting the union. That's why we observe a preponderance of the evil union agenda in every existing certification program we can point to. For Evan to win his argument that certification will be mostly about truth and light, he has to show powerful union-fighting forces. So far, he has not. > which was created and administered by those already in the > professions (which seems a little odd for an independent review of > skills). The Boy Scouts has an elite group. In order to keep it from becoming a union hall ruled by adults for adult political purposes, it has the following rules: (1) Only outsiders may elect new candidates into the elite. Current members do not get a vote, and they're prohibited from campaigning. (2) Elite members lose their voting privileges on elite business when then turn 18, although they are encouraged and welcomed to participate as adults. There is a ranking system within the elite that is controlled by adults, but it mostly functions as an accounting of seniority; rank has little power. I can personally attest that the system works very, very well. At the time, I thought the voting arrangement was "cute". Now I realize it's brilliant. Once a year, the election supervisors come by and instruct the nonmembers to pick the 5% of their group they respect the most, and vote them in. For a skill rating system, perhaps they should vote on new ranks as well as membership. For Linux, I suggest the voting cutoff age should be 30, not 18. There's good evidence for the change in mindset that happens at this age ("don't trust anyone over 30"). Now, will a group continually guided by youthful idealism survive in the real world? Considering this is probably the same group that contributes most of the code, I bet it will. ----- Change of topic. Or maybe not. > In professional settings, IMO, one does not "hack". One does not do > exploratory research on a company's critical servers, nor does > untested 'upgrades'. Of course one does. Most computer training is on-the-job, all development is iterative, and nobody knows enough not to do applied research. Everybody knows this. It's standard in the industry. What is important is that the consultant fairly represent the limits of their skill to the customer. Now, I agree you shouldn't fool around with the company's lifeblood like it was your own private hobby. But there's a biiiiiiiig middle ground. For instance, the recent questions about hierarchical file systems are going to lead directly to a lot of exploratory research and untested upgrades on the company's servers. And all perfectly legitimate and in the company's interests. A consulting claiming he writes every configuration file with cat(1) is a consultant overstating his abilities. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 3 12:03:00 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:17:18 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 69 On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > For Evan to win his argument that certification will be mostly about > truth and light, he has to show powerful union-fighting forces. So > far, he has not. I feel no need to demonstrate "union-fighting forces", since no satisfactory demonstration has been made that a Linux-cert project, crafted as proposed, would be *automatically* susceptable to it. I've never argued for "truth and light", just for a program that will offer a segment of this community an admittedly-limited answer to a known demand. Besides, I just can't get very riled up over such stinging invective, since I'm personally not so religiously anti-union. In any case, the rules have been changed such that this is no longer an argument worth fighting. Charges have been leveled and answered, only to have the original issue twisted beyond recognition. This is now a waste of time. Congratulations; feel free to declare victory if that pulls your chain. I'm off to do real work amongst those who don't talk in circles, and don't offhandedly trash the opinions of people over 30. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 3 18:01:44 1999 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:49:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Marold To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 On Sun, 31 Jan 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > Whereas, if you truly want to identify Linux skill, you'll find you > need to test for generic engineering ability, not for memorization of > the details of the moment. True Linux skill is a well-rounded ability > to solve problems: evaluate a situation, devise a solution, implement > the solution, verify performance, and leave. Details such as the > differences between distribution are recalled from memory or extracted > from documentation as needed. Solutions are judged on whether they > are reliable, functional, and economical. See the work SAGE is doing > on Unix certification at http://www.usenix.org. They don't have an > answer yet, but they do know what they don't want. You're exactly right about this. A better solution at a lower price (than off-the-shelf SW). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 3 18:03:01 1999 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 15:24:02 +0100 From: Fredric Fredricson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 I have one question: If a person is certified, so what? I have hired a lot of programmers and I don't think a certificate would make that much difference in the process. It might have some impact on who I decide to look closer at but not much else. I would rate (documented) experience much higher. Almost as high as good references. Most people with diplomas on the wall also knows that the actual value of a diploma _may_ not be much more than the stain that it covers. ;-) I still think this program _might_ be a good idea, but I would put some light on the, in my mind, most important aspect: What is it good for? I can fully understand that some managers run around and ask for some proof that they can point at when it is time to cover ass. I do not think that the Linux community should spend too much time worrying about them though. /Fredric -- Fredric Fredricson MYDATA automation AB Manager System SW R&D Adolfsbergsvagen 11 phone: +46 8 475 55 21 S-161 70 BROMMA fax: +46 8 475 55 01 SWEDEN email: fredric@mydata.se http://www.mydata.se ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 3 18:03:25 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:01:42 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 02:50:06AM -0500, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > The Boy Scouts has an elite group. In order to keep it from becoming > a union hall ruled by adults for adult political purposes, it has the ... > Once a year, the election supervisors come by and instruct the > nonmembers to pick the 5% of their group they respect the most, and > vote them in. For a skill rating system, perhaps they should vote on > new ranks as well as membership. For Linux, I suggest the voting > cutoff age should be 30, not 18. There's good evidence for the change > in mindset that happens at this age ("don't trust anyone over 30"). I have only great respect for the Boy (and other) scouts, but the use of age as a criteria in this discussion is not only irrelevent but the biggest load of BULL I've heard in a long time. Being part of the generation that invented the phrase, we discovered it just ain't so -- as I hope you will in time. > Now, will a group continually guided by youthful idealism survive in > the real world? Considering this is probably the same group that > contributes most of the code, I bet it will. I won't bother to tell you how old the president of Redhat is or many of the members of the Apache group -- All I can say is get real - don't make such bogus statements without a hell of a lot more evidence than 'probably'. I rarely respond to posts with this thought BUT introducing it as you have makes me question the total validity of your other comments. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 3 18:04:02 1999 From: Matthew.Rice@ftlsol.com To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:25:57 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 rfi from Rich Roth writes: > I rarely respond to posts with this thought BUT introducing it as you have > makes me question the total validity of your other comments. And speaking from the under 30s group, I completely agree. I had composed a response to his comments but decided that it wasn't worth the effort. -- matthew rice starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 3 22:01:01 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:13:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott D. Webster" To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, rfi from Rich Roth wrote: > On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 02:50:06AM -0500, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > > The Boy Scouts has an elite group. In order to keep it from becoming > > a union hall ruled by adults for adult political purposes, it has the > ... > > Once a year, the election supervisors come by and instruct the > > nonmembers to pick the 5% of their group they respect the most, and > > vote them in. For a skill rating system, perhaps they should vote on > > new ranks as well as membership. For Linux, I suggest the voting > > cutoff age should be 30, not 18. There's good evidence for the change > > in mindset that happens at this age ("don't trust anyone over 30"). > > I have only great respect for the Boy (and other) scouts, but the use of age > as a criteria in this discussion is not only irrelevent but the biggest load > of BULL I've heard in a long time. Being part of the generation that > invented the phrase, we discovered it just ain't so -- as I hope you will in > time. As someone who turned 30 just this past Sunday, I second the opinion that this age cutoff idea is full of it. -- Scott D. Webster swebster@carroll.com Etc Services Voice: 201.385.7113 Linux, UNIX, & TCP/IP Network Consulting Pager: 800.379.2402 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 3 22:01:21 1999 From: "John Rumpelein" To: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:11:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Subject: [linux-biz] RE: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 75 Folks, > I have one question: If a person is certified, so what? I just joined the list, so I'm sorry if this has been addressed before, but you are aware that Red Hat has started a certification program, right? So whether or not one should exist is kind of a moot point. One does. As for the "no one over 30" bit, I think that's just plain silly. What people over 30 have that 18 year olds don't is experience. Experience is a necessary tool for surviving in the real world. There's much to be said for youthful idealism, but no 18 year old I've ever met was qualified to run an international certification program. I'd say such a person should have 10-15 years industry experience at the very least in order to be taken seriously by the rest of the world. And to counter your next argument, I don't meet those criteria, so I am not eligible. Nyah. -J -- John Rumpelein jmr@jmrtech.com Network/Systems Consultant UNIX & Linux Specialist Voicemail/Fax: 206.374.2367 http://www.jmrtech.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 4 06:01:00 1999 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:39:50 +0100 From: Fredric Fredricson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 76 John Rumpelein wrote: > > Folks, > > > I have one question: If a person is certified, so what? > > I just joined the list, so I'm sorry if this has been addressed > before, but you are aware that Red Hat has started a certification > program, right? So whether or not one should exist is kind of a moot > point. One does. I believe that RedHat has started 5 day or so a training program, after which you can call yourself a "Red Hat Certified Engineer". As far as I understand this is not the same as he proposed certification program. I am very much for training programs. It would be great to see one on Linux on the web. /Fredric ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 4 06:01:39 1999 From: "John Rumpelein" To: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:23:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Subject: [linux-biz] RE: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 Fredric, > I believe that RedHat has started 5 day or so a training program, > after which you can call yourself a "Red Hat Certified Engineer". I think there will be an exam at the conclusion of the training course. Something I've asked them for is the ability to take the exam *without* taking their training course. After having done this for 5 or 6 years I'd like to think I've learned more than they can teach me in a week. :) > As far as I understand this is not the same as he proposed > certification program. Probably not; I haven't seen the proposed program. I hope it doesn't involve Boy Scouts. ;) > I am very much for training programs. It would be great to see one > on Linux on the web. I don't think people can learn how to admin Linux machines by reading about it. There's really no substitute for actually setting up and running machines. I certainly wouldn't hire someone whose only experience was a one-week training course, regardless of how well the instructor said they did. The usefulness of such a course for someone who already has been doing this awhile is also questionable. They do look nice on a resume, which I think explains most of their popularity. -J -- John Rumpelein jmr@jmrtech.com Network/Systems Consultant UNIX & Linux Specialist Voicemail/Fax: 206.374.2367 http://www.jmrtech.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 4 06:02:22 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:55:46 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 78 On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 05:23:28PM -0800, John Rumpelein wrote: > > I believe that RedHat has started 5 day or so a training program, > > after which you can call yourself a "Red Hat Certified Engineer". > > I think there will be an exam at the conclusion of the training > course. Something I've asked them for is the ability to take the exam > *without* taking their training course. After having done this for 5 > or 6 years I'd like to think I've learned more than they can teach me > in a week. :) Likewise, having admin'd and developed UNIX systems for 15 years. This reminds me of last time I was going to take a operating system admin course and driver writing course, the instructor called us all before hand to see what we expected from the course -- an hour later I got a call from her boss offering me all their internal docs if I won't take the course -- it seems I scared their instructor with the depth of my questions. (I won't say how long ago that was ) I will taking up this issue with Redhat. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 4 08:46:51 1999 From: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) To: Fredric Fredricson Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 05:34:52 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 On Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:39:50 +0100, Fredric Fredricson wrote: >I believe that RedHat has started 5 day or so a training program, >after which you can call yourself a "Red Hat Certified Engineer". >As far as I understand this is not the same as he proposed >certification program. Actually it is a cert program. First, they require that you have a linux admin or unix background before you come to the class. Next it is a 5 day class with both a practical and written test. They will probably put some emphasis on their configuration wigits and RPM, but hopefully they will teach how to admin without the fancy tools. -- Ed Weinberg, Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider edw@detel.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 4 18:01:27 1999 Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 03:20:06 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 80 > introducing it as you have makes me question the total validity of > your other comments. Good! You should examine each line of argument individually for yourself. Support it if it makes sense to you. Don't support it just because some guy in Cambridge says so. Many brains make for few bugs. The responses posted have grouped into two tight camps. I explain this by claiming one camp wants good marketing, and the other camp wants good certification. These goals are unaligned, and the alignment varies over time: In the beginning, cheezy tests make for good marketing and bad certification. Over time, the public recognizes cheezy tests have formed inbred union monopolies and don't identify real skill, and the tests become bad marketing. In the beginning, tests of merit make for bad marketing, because they show few people have a high skill level. Such tests are also wildly expensive and inconvenient. Over time, the public recognizes the certified practitioners are genuinely capable, and they become good marketing. I would support certification, given testing which is of merit. I sent Evan a description of the kind of testing I would support. The testing looked like a best-practices job interview, or an academic dissertation defense. Very essay oriented, with many highly skilled people to implement. Totally unlike multiple-guess tests. Not funded by any individual vendor. And by the way, I am over 30. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 6 00:02:32 1999 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:06:12 -0500 X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John C Cusick Subject: [linux-biz] Certification Issue X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 Gentlemen & Ladies; I have been out of town for the last week and so read the last train of thoughts at one sitting. For what it's worth, I've been looking for an entry-level IS job for awhile now, in the local area only and jobs are scarce so not alot of luck. The first thing people want to know about and see are my certifications. I don't have any. I get beat out for the job by people who don't know what UNIX is and have been involved w/MS/ Novell products for two or three years. They are "certified". I've been hacking around with computer hardware for over 20 years. I took my first programming course in Fortran on an IBM 360 Series H at Boston University in 1971. Tough beans for me. Evan, keep up the "good fight". Whether certification of any kind proves anything has been debated since the days of Guilds in Merry Olde England. Who cares whether they prove if the earth is flat?? The fact is, HR guys don't know much about 90% of the jobs of any kind that they hire for and most of the good ones know that certification is but a small part of the list (except of course computers - too intimidated and too trustful of Novell and MS :-), but they still want 'em. The other fact is without one of some sort I won't find a job easily, and right now a Linux certificate of any sort is the only one, due to time as well as money contraints, that I can afford or want. I'm just a poor sap looking for a job I'd covet so I can climb out of a filthy dirty oily coolant soaked CNC machine tool (lathe, grinder, milling machine) and wear the same clean shirt home at night that I put on that morning. When I think about certifications, all intelectual thinking stops and my eyes become green with envy. In the CYA manufacturing world I live in Certificates WORK! This is only a small rant from the typical guy that needs a particular certification. Most of us could not care less about the politics or motivations, we just want a decent job that we like. In the US, companyies treat certifications like a Master's Degree. They are a necesarey fact of life, like a working car or a high school diploma. If you don't know anything, they'll can you quick with or without a certification anyway, so what's the difference? From the working stiff's point of view, Brian's right, they show you're a member of the "Right Union", and from Evan's point of view it would be nice to have an honest, and as far as any of them go, accurate certification. And as the typical manufacturer says, the sooner the better! John Cusick ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 6 06:01:33 1999 From: "John Rumpelein" To: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:05:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Subject: [linux-biz] RE: Certification Issue X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 John, > For what it's worth, I've been looking for an > entry-level IS job for awhile now, in the local area only > and jobs are scarce so not alot of luck. The first thing > people want to know about and see are my certifications. Where is this? Because I work in the US (in the Seattle area), and the topic of my certifications have never come up in an interview. In fact, I *removed* my DC/OSx certification from my resume because it was taking up valuable room. I still list DC/OSx as a skill, and if people want to ask me about it, then I'll tell them I went for some silly training course and got a certificate at the end of it. It's really not all that impressive, IMHO. I've been involved in the hiring process, and personally the only certification I'd take seriously is the CCIE. The most important thing is professional experience, meaning _time on the job._ If you're lacking this of course, that's what could be holding you back. The way I got started was through an intern program at the college I was studying at, which led to a government job. It paid dirt, but it was a start and that's where I started building my resume. Good luck. -J -- John Rumpelein jmr@jmrtech.com Network/Systems Consultant UNIX & Linux Specialist Voicemail/Fax: 206.374.2367 http://www.jmrtech.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 7 15:40:40 1999 Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 23:50:57 -0500 From: "Peter A. Daly" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.1.131 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "linux-biz@lege.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Linux Database Benchmarks? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 83 Does anyone know where I can find benchmarks for any of the major commercial databases (DB2/Oracle/etc) in comparison to other Operating systems? This is something I would really like to see now that 2.2 is out. -Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 7 15:40:43 1999 From: "Chris Fischer" To: Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:39:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Database Benchmarks? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 84 -----Original Message----- From: Peter A. Daly >Does anyone know where I can find benchmarks for any of the major >commercial databases (DB2/Oracle/etc) in comparison to other Operating >systems? This may not be exactly what you're looking for, but here are some benchmarks comparing various commercial on noncommercial databases: http://www.mysql.com/benchmark.html Regards, Chris ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 7 20:01:19 1999 Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:44:14 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: John C Cusick cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Certification Issue X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 85 On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, John C Cusick wrote: > Evan, keep up the "good fight". Whether certification of any kind > proves anything has been debated since the days of Guilds in Merry > Olde England. Who cares whether they prove if the earth is flat?? The > fact is, HR guys don't know much about 90% of the jobs of any kind > that they hire for and most of the good ones know that certification > is but a small part of the list (except of course computers - too > intimidated and too trustful of Novell and MS :-), but they still want > 'em. Thanks for the good words. Sometimes it isn't easy, but it's still worth doing. Interesting your choice of words... we've been looking, as a point of reference, of the Usenix-spawned System Administrators' Guild (SAGE) which has been pondering the crt issue, without resolution for what I'm told is now eight years. Every time it comes up, a vocal bunch that want *no* certification shout it down. We've tried to work with SAGE -- and there is still some level of co-operation going on -- but it doesn't look like *their* resolution of the matter will happen any time soon. - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 7 22:01:47 1999 Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 13:39:08 -0700 From: Zed Shaw To: "'Evan Leibovitch'" , "'linux-biz@lege.com'" MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [linux-biz] RE: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 First, I definitely don't condone the setting of age limits on who can do anything. Therefore, I don't agree with the remark that people over 30 should kept from doing anything. And I'm 25, so don't think everyone under 30 is stupid or arrogant (just young punks :-). Let me see if I can respond to Mr. Leibovitch's criticism of my criticism. First, I hate just criticizing something, and not offering a solution. I find that people tend to criticize things in an attempt to get rid of them, but then don't offer anything better. So before I poke holes in EL's arguments, I'd like to say this: I SUPPORT SOME FORM OF CERTIFCATION FOR THE LINUX COMMUNITY. But only if that certification meets the following criteria: 1) It must be controlled by two separate bodies that have no influence over each other. 2) It must be non-profit and all test materials are freely available (i.e. study guides online, etc.) 3) Universities must be allowed to give certificates to their graduates if they complete a certain number/type of courses, or give the tests for free (I'd prefer the latter myself). 4) More proof of the claims to "everyone wants this" and "the community needs it." Also, polling should continue, and if the community is against it, or has complaints, then they should be recognized and fixed. If you're going to do it for the community at the start, then it must continue that way. 5) If, at any time, enough people can prove that not having a certificate has kept them from employment, then the certificate will be abandoned. This is a form of check to keep people from keeping other out of the profession. That's all I want. Now on to my comments and whining: You responded to my first comments this way: >> My first problem with certification is the motivation behind any such >> attempts. I'm afraid that this Linux certification will turn into another >> attempt for those who currently have Jobs to place limits on those who are >> trying to enter the profession. > >I see your point, but would approach it from a slightly less >conspiratorial angle. I agree with the issue of supply and demand, but >suggest that it's the employers, not the certifiers, that are driving the >demand for such standards. When supply of would-be Linux professionals >exceeds demand, employers can be more picky, raising the bar to whatever >level they see fit. Then, a certification is just one of many possible >ways that a job applicant improves their chances when competing against >uncertified competition. > >If demand exceeds supply, the certification has little meaning, as >employers take whatever they can find. This is not a conspiratorial view point, this is based on the various rhetorical statements you are making. First, you claim these three things: >- trainers, wanting a known target of skills to train to: > >- employers, whose HR departments are too lazy to be able to check > out basic Linux qualifications themselves, want to trust someone else > to do it for them > >- newcomers to Linux, wanting to know what skills are required by said > employers Yet, you don't provide any proof. Where are the statistical surveys? Where are the testimonials? How many corporations have you contacted? Before you make these blanket statements, I think you need to contact them. Also, you claim that as demand goes up, businesses will start to ignore certificates. There are two problems with this: 1) Many times, certification bodies lobby in state and federal governments to make certification mandatory. Unless there is something in your charter against this, I imagine your organization will do the same. 2) If businesses start ignoring certificates, they will only do it if they can get a non-certified person for less than a certified person. Just like in the real market, when all the good stuff goes, and people are forced to buy mediocre stuff, they refuse to pay more for it. Also, many businesses will use certification as an excuse to not hire somebody at the rate they're worth. Corporations realize that certification doesn't prove anything, and start hiring a bunch of uncertified people who are convinced they aren't worth much with out their certs. Thus, the businesses will get cheap labor. It's exactly the same thing that is happening to middle management right now. Next you make this statement: >Linux veterans and experienced admins -- the group with the greatest >interest in keeping out newcomers based on your theory -- has not been >pushing for this at all. Again, how do you know? Where's the proof? I want statistics, I want polls, I want some kind of survey to at least show that you are trying to satisfy some niche (as you claim). Also, isn't your group composed mostly of "linux veterans and experienced admins"? That means that the veterans and admins not only want to keep newcomers out, but they (you) are trying to do it. Then, you take my point about the separation of the control of testing from the certification body, and make a logical inference that you can't. You state: >It is for this reason that The Linux Institute is designed as a non-profit >community group. While we may solicit sponsorship and endorsemenmts, the >group is specifically intended to be independent of any vendor(s). There are three problems with this statement: 1) I was talking about making the organization that awards the certificates separate from the organization that determines (and tests) the standards. What you've said here does not provide any controls over this. Non-profit simply means that your organization won't produce a larger than economic profit over time. This doesn't mean that you won't all pay yourselves handsomely or enlarge your scope of influences as "profits" rise. Also, it is still one organization making the shots, thus no check-and-balances is provided. 2) You state that it is a non-profit "community group." Well, this community group is composed of the very same "veterans and experienced admins" that I'm claiming are trying to keep people out of their profession. Thus, if the community group is composed of these people, and they are trying to create a limiting test (which is the very definition of test), then of course they are going to try and do it for their own self interest. 3) If you are truly trying to appease the business community, how come there aren't any businesses in your group? Next, you reply to my statement about making money (which you already supported when you claimed to be non-profit) in this way: >That's why the certification is exam-based only, and intends to make the >exam subject matter totally open. That way, anyone can develop study >materials or courseware, commercial or free. It also allows anyone who is >sufficiently self-taught, to walk in and take the tests with no >pre-requisite classes, books, or anything else. The exams themselves will >be operated on a cost-recovery basis only. > >The above is a fundamental principle of The Linux Institute. > >The model on which we are working involves three levels, each level >requiring passing of two exams. Based on rough guesses, I'd say the exams >will cost about $75 each. Total cost -- $150 per level. Anything else you >spend on preparation is at your discretion. This doesn't really refute my point, and actually supports it on many levels. First, I'm talking about the potential market here. By opening the study materials up, you're providing for the largest market base possible, and thus, have quite a bit of money making potential. Next, other businesses will start trying to create "better" services than you can for free. Since they will try to do it on a for-profit basis, they would most likely succeed. Once that happens, you'll have to compete, and so on. This is the type of "arms-race" style competition I'm talking about. Your statement does not refute this, but only supports it because you say you are allowing for commercial ventures to provide training material. Next, you state that "the exams themselves will be operated on a cost-recovery basis only." So, who determines what your costs are? Of course, your organization does. What controls are in place to keep you from raising prices to meet your own needs? Nothing. You could very easily raise the price on the tests, and subsequently give yourselves a nice raise to "compensate for inflationary periods." I'm sure many people who went to state universities know how this works. Finally, I know I couldn't pay $450 dollars for a test or find the time to study for it, and I have a job. I can't imagine what it would be like for people who aren't employed (like college students), but are still very capable. So your idea of cheap is definitely not my idea of cheap. Finally, your retort to my emphatic (not logical) ending (not conclusion) is flawed on many logical levels. >> We have install parties, more newsgroups than anything, advocates coming >> from every corner of the world, and people making software for others just >> 'cause they wanna. I think a certification program would ruin this, and >> turn Linux into just another NT. > >You've totally changed the logic between the body of your comments and >this conclusion. I ask you to explain how the mere existence of a >certification program will inhibit those who develop software for Linux >from continuing to do so. > >Certification satisfies the needs of a fairly small (but IMO) part of the >Linux community. I fail to see why others in the community would oppose >this group's needs being met, or what threats they feel threatened from >it. My main problem with your reply, is that you claim that you are satisfying a subset of the linux community, but you haven't shown us who. What businesses? What departments of those businesses? HR? Accounting? IT? What professional organizations? What governments? Also, when did the subset you're talking about become part of the community? How large a part of the Linux Community are we talking about here? What size of the population must be for something before you can claim everyone wants it (which is what you are saying)? What makes the people who don't want it idiots as you are implying (since you obviously are too smart to see how a guy like me can't want this)? Why don't you try answering my questions? That last part was so full of holes, that I think maybe you just didn't understand my argument thus far, so here it is in a slightly symbolic notation: NT = must pay, limiting. NT COMMUNITY = not friendly, business only. NT COMMUNITY subset of NT. LINUX = for free, open. LINUX COMMUNITY = friendly, for fun and business. LINUX COMMUNITY subset of LINUX. CERTIFICATE = must pay, limiting. NT CERTIFICATE = must pay, limiting. NT = NT CERTIFICATE (truth) NT CERTIFICATE = subset of NT. LINUX = LINUX CERTIFICATE (false) Therefore: LINUX != LINUX CERTIFICATE. LINUX CERTIFICATE not subset of LINUX COMMUNITY. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 7 23:21:16 1999 Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:31:30 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] IBM to throw full weight behind Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 http://linuxtoday.com/stories/2918.html Dwight -- http://linuxtoday.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 8 00:00:58 1999 Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:50:19 +0100 From: "Magnus Lyckå" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Database Benchmarks? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 Chris Fischer wrote: > > This may not be exactly what you're looking for, but here are some > benchmarks comparing various commercial on noncommercial databases: > > http://www.mysql.com/benchmark.html But that's hardly objective, and it seems to me that it's fairly biased towards MySQL. As far as I understand it only uses direct (dynamic) SQL. This means that the query execution plans are re- calculated for each query. For databases like Oracle, static SQL might well be a magnitude or so faster. I don't think that MySQL supports ESQL / static SQL at all. Does it? I'm sure there are other aspects to consider as well. How well tuned were the Oracle etc databases in that MySQL benchmark? You can change the performance a lot by changing various factors. How many disks where used, and how was data partitioned? Were raw devices used? The problem with benchmarks is that it only really says how good the system is at performing that particular benchmark. The only reasonable way to get a good picture of how various databases would perform in your application would be to test it with proper data. Note that different databases and different hw etc might have a big influence on how the performance will change when the amount of data increases and so on. Of course it would be great if someone made a proper TPC test with Linux, and it could well happen I guess. I don't think we should expect any impressing results soon though. On could possibly hope for good TPS/$ ratings for low end systems, and that's really what most customers want. I'm not sure we can expect that so soon though. Both OS and DBMS manufacturers have had years to tune their products to each other. On Linux these products are all brand new. This means that Linux isn't optimized for running RDMS's. How could it be? AFAIK it still lacks _proper_ raw devices, which most database systems prefer. By using the file system for storing data we get two disadvantages. 1) Functionality is duplicated which leads to decreased performance---instead of getting direct access to HW, the RDBMS (which knows exactly how to handle data on the disk) has to talk to another layer of software. Caching is preformed twice etc. 2) The RDBMS doesn't really know when stuff is stored on the magnetic media, due to the second cache (the file system). This decreases the reliability of the system. I'm sure there are other aspects of Linux' design that will improve as the use of high end database systems increase, but aren't yet optimal. Maybe Linux 2.4 will be a real killer for database systems? Perhaps companies like Oracle or Sybase will provide patches to Linux which will make it much better for database use. Still, in most database systems running today I think Linux would be a good choice. If the lack of raw devices is a problem, getting faster hardware is probably cheaper than upgrading to Solaris, SCO, Compaq Tru64 Unix or AIX. Cost and ease of use is often more important than performance. Magnus -- Magnus Lyckå, ThinkWare AB, Folktrovägen 6C, S-907 51 Umeå tel: 090 - 19 84 98, GSM: 070 - 582 80 65, Fax: 070 - 612 80 65 mailto:magnus.lycka@tripnet.se http://www1.tripnet.se/~mly/mlis/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 8 06:02:12 1999 Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:07:52 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?Magnus_Lyck=E5?= cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Database Benchmarks? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Magnus Lyckå wrote: > > http://www.mysql.com/benchmark.html > > But that's hardly objective, and it seems to me that it's fairly > biased towards MySQL. As far as I understand it only uses direct > (dynamic) SQL. This means that the query execution plans are re- > calculated for each query. For databases like Oracle, static SQL > might well be a magnitude or so faster. I don't think that MySQL > supports ESQL / static SQL at all. Does it? Consider also that mySQL doesn't handle transactions. If you took that important facility out of every other database I'm sure they could operate much faster too. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 8 06:02:23 1999 To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Paul Foley Date: 08 Feb 1999 17:19:20 +1300 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 On Sun, 07 Feb 1999 13:39:08 -0700, Zed Shaw wrote: > arguments, I'd like to say this: I SUPPORT SOME FORM OF CERTIFCATION > FOR THE LINUX COMMUNITY. But only if that certification meets the > following criteria: > 1) It must be controlled by two separate bodies that have no > influence over each other. > 2) It must be non-profit and all test materials are freely > available (i.e. study guides online, etc.) Evan has repeatedly said that that will be the case. > 3) Universities must be allowed to give certificates to their > graduates if they complete a certain number/type of courses, or give the > tests for free (I'd prefer the latter myself). Why should Universities be able to give the certificates/tests for free? Then non-university test-takers are going to be paying more to cover the cost. (Probably a lot more, if university students are the majority of takers. So nobody else takes the tests, there's no money, the whole thing collapses, and the universities can't give away certificates any more!) > 4) More proof of the claims to "everyone wants this" and "the > community needs it." Also, polling should continue, and if the community is > against it, or has complaints, then they should be recognized and fixed. If > you're going to do it for the community at the start, then it must continue > that way. Nobody has ever even come close to saying "everyone wants this." Evan has said over and over again that relatively few people want this. Why do you think it's necessary to find out who wants it? Evan (or rather, the group Evan is part of) presumably has some idea that there's a market there, or they wouldn't be bothering with this; but why do _you_ care whether people want it or not? > 5) If, at any time, enough people can prove that not having a > certificate has kept them from employment, then the certificate will be > abandoned. This is a form of check to keep people from keeping other out of > the profession. "If, at any time, enough people can prove that Linux has kept them from employment (e.g., selling SCO, programming NT, ...), then Linux will be abandoned. This is a form of check to keep people from keeping other people out of the profession." > 1) Many times, certification bodies lobby in state and federal > governments to make certification mandatory. Unless there is > something in your charter against this, I imagine your organization > will do the same. A wee bit paranoid, are we? > 2) If businesses start ignoring certificates, they will only do it > if they can get a non-certified person for less than a certified They'll do it if they can get a person who knows what they're doing for less than another person who knows what they're doing. Pieces of paper have little to do with it. The point of the certificate is just to demonstrate that you have the skills they're looking for; if the employer can recognise that in other ways, or thinks the certificate doesn't do that, they won't need the certificate. > for it. Also, many businesses will use certification as an excuse > to not hire somebody at the rate they're worth. Corporations There's no such thing as "the rate they're worth." You're worth whatever someone is willing to pay you. *If* businesses are willing to pay more for a piece of paper, the paper's obviously worthwhile. >> Linux veterans and experienced admins -- the group with the greatest >> interest in keeping out newcomers based on your theory -- has not been >> pushing for this at all. > Again, how do you know? Where's the proof? I want statistics, I want > polls, I want some kind of survey to at least show that you are trying to > satisfy some niche (as you claim). Why do you care? If they're not doing something people want, nobody will get certified. You seem to be afraid that people really _do_ want this, and that you don't have what it takes to get one. If that's so, find another line of work (with or without certification, who'd want to hire someone who admits they don't have a clue?); if not, why does it bother you? They're not asking you to provide venture capital for the thing. > Also, isn't your group composed mostly of "linux veterans and experienced > admins"? That means that the veterans and admins not only want to keep > newcomers out, but they (you) are trying to do it. What's any of this got to do with keeping newcomers out? (I thought it was about helping people get jobs, not preventing people getting jobs. Sorry, I failed Conspiracy Theories 101.) > 1) I was talking about making the organization that awards the certificates > separate from the organization that determines (and tests) the standards. What does that achieve? The one doing the testing is still determining who passes and who doesn't; the other organisation is just a glorified typist printing names passed on by the first. > What you've said here does not provide any controls over this. Non-profit > simply means that your organization won't produce a larger than economic > profit over time. This doesn't mean that you won't all pay yourselves > handsomely or enlarge your scope of influences as "profits" rise. Also, it > is still one organization making the shots, thus no check-and-balances is > provided. Again, why do you care? If you don't want to contribute to their bank accounts, don't get their certification. Nobody (except you) is talking about passing a law forcing you to get one. No-one's stopping you creating and selling, or giving away, your own certification if Evan's isn't what you want, and you think you can provide something better. Who told you there could only be one certification body? > First, I'm talking about the potential market here. By opening the study > materials up, you're providing for the largest market base possible, and > thus, have quite a bit of money making potential. Next, other businesses > will start trying to create "better" services than you can for free. Since > they will try to do it on a for-profit basis, they would most likely > succeed. Wow, just like free software, you mean? So what's your problem? > Finally, I know I couldn't pay $450 dollars for a test or find the time to > study for it, and I have a job. I can't imagine what it would be like for > people who aren't employed (like college students), but are still very > capable. So your idea of cheap is definitely not my idea of cheap. So don't take his test(s). [What kind of lousy job do you have that it's impossible for you to save $450 in order to get a better-paying job? There's no time limit; you can start saving now. Go mow people's lawns on weekends, or something, for God's sake] > My main problem with your reply, is that you claim that you are satisfying a > subset of the linux community, but you haven't shown us who. What Who cares? If he's not satisfying anyone, why does it bother you? > (which is what you are saying)? What makes the people who don't want it > idiots as you are implying (since you obviously are too smart to see how a > guy like me can't want this)? Why don't you try answering my questions? Evan never made any such implication. He's been saying all along "it's not for everyone, or even most people." There's nothing wrong with not wanting certification. What makes you an "idiot," as you put it, is that you're trying to deny _everyone_ certification, unless it's certification you approve of. > That last part was so full of holes, that I think maybe you just didn't > understand my argument thus far, so here it is in a slightly symbolic > notation: [...] > LINUX = LINUX CERTIFICATE (false) > Therefore: LINUX != LINUX CERTIFICATE. LINUX CERTIFICATE not subset of > LINUX COMMUNITY. Is this supposed to mean something? -- (setq reply-to (concatenate 'string "Paul Foley " "")) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 8 12:00:59 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:07:54 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Zed Shaw cc: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] RE: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Zed Shaw claimed to > hate just criticizing something, and not offering a solution. and then proceeded, in a lengthy post, to do exactly that. Go figure. > I SUPPORT SOME FORM OF CERTIFCATION FOR THE LINUX COMMUNITY. But only > if that certification meets the following criteria: Why are these criteria necessary? Where is the proof? Where are the surveys? TLI exists because people are interested in its particular approach, and agree with the goals as expressed on the main website. It has attracted people in the hundreds, who have agreed to work based on a perception that such a program is desirable. This perception may be based on facts, or anecdotal evidence, or blind faith, or an errant call to the Psychic Hotline. It matters not. What does matter is that a group of people who work with Linux, for whatever reasons, believe this effort is helpful for some fragment of the community. My own reasons are based on what I encounter in my travels as a writer and partner in a Linux-centric VAR. Others are involved for other reasons. What is key is less motivation than the common goals, and willingness to work together to achieve them. > Also, polling should continue, and if the community is against it, or > has complaints, then they should be recognized and fixed. Or those with the complaints are welcome to do their own fixing. They can even take advantage of the fact that we'll be openly publishing all our criteria and research, so those advocating alternatives can freely cheery-pick those parts of our program that they do like. That is the one of the fundamental benefits of our being an open program. You are welcome to create your own alternative if you believe that what we're doing doesn't meet your needs. If you see something that needs doing, and others aren't doing it, you stop whining and do it yourself. > 5) If, at any time, enough people can prove that not having a > certificate has kept them from employment, then the certificate will > be abandoned. You are welcome to design a program that operates this way; we choose not to. The whole point of a cert program is to provide a yardstick that employers and contractors can use as one of many tools to evaluate candidates. If our program succeeds, it may well be used as such a tool and we will encourage its use as such. > Also, many businesses will use certification as an excuse to not hire > somebody at the rate they're worth. I guess that depends on who's doing the valuation of "worth", doesn't it? > I want statistics, I want polls, Then go find them. Or make them up, for all I care. The people already involved, many more than I, believe the demand exists. If that's not sufficient enough for you, then feel free to do your own research. Nobody owes it to you. > 2) You state that it is a non-profit "community group." Well, this > community group is composed of the very same "veterans and experienced > admins" that I'm claiming are trying to keep people out of their profession. Such a claim is absolute BS, since it's clear you don't know what you're talking as you haven't even looked at our website before spewing this. > 3) If you are truly trying to appease the business community, how come > there aren't any businesses in your group? What *is* possible to see, from a cursory glance at the website, is the makeup of the committee that's driving this project. Hardly a bunch of "veterans and experienced admins", rather academics and consultants and Linux support provider companies and professional trainers. Some are brand spanking new to Linux; others have been around longer. > By opening the study materials up, you're providing for the largest > market base possible, and thus, have quite a bit of money making > potential. Next, other businesses will start trying to create > "better" services than you can for free. How can they do them "better" than we, if we are not doing them at all? We have no intent to produce study materials; that is entirely to be left to third parties. We intend to publish sufficient details to allow anyone to create courses and materials that will adequately prepare students for taking our exams. But we will not create such materials ourselves. > Next, you state that "the exams themselves will be operated on a > cost-recovery basis only." So, who determines what your costs are? > Of course, your organization does. What controls are in place to keep > you from raising prices to meet your own needs? Nothing. Our books will be open. If something we do outrages you, go ahead, call world attention to what an evil bunch of gougers we are -- and then start your own alternative. > Finally, I know I couldn't pay $450 dollars for a test You didn't even read the message you replied to. Based on $75 per, you could reach your first level of certification for $150, after taking two exams. > So your idea of cheap is definitely not my idea of cheap. So start a program based on your idea of cheap. > My main problem with your reply, is that you claim that you are satisfying a > subset of the linux community, but you haven't shown us who. Myself, for one. I, Evan Leibovitch, am a one-person subset of the Linux community, and I am involved with this program in order to satisfy a need of *me*. (Particularly, a need of my company.) Many others who contribute to the TLI mailing lists appear to share similar goals, that their needs in this respect are similar to mine. I know some individuals who share my motivations, and I know others with totally different motives -- but we're travelling down the same road. It's a very diverse bunch. If the program satisfies the needs of no more than the numbers who are subscribed to the mailing lists, that's OK with me. I happen to believe that others, who have yet to come forward, share the interest as well. > Also, when did the subset you're talking about become part of the > community? The moment they declared an interest in using or working with Linux. In my case, I can even remember the exact time and place; November 20, 1995, about 1:30 EST, in New York's Javitz Center. Some participants in TLI are old-timers, some discovered Linux this week. Why is this relevant? > How large a part of the Linux Community are we talking about here? I have no idea. Could be a dozen. Could be thousands. Doesn't matter. I and others believe the approach should be tried. And if it fails because demand is not high enough, or because an alternative based on your idea of "cheap" is more widely preferred, then that's OK too. > What size of the population must be for something before you can claim > everyone wants it (which is what you are saying)? I did? Where? I believe I advocate just the opposite, that it's not for everyone. If I said otherwise, explicitly or implicitly, I apologize. > NT = must pay, limiting. > NT COMMUNITY = not friendly, business only. > NT COMMUNITY subset of NT. > > LINUX = for free, open. > LINUX COMMUNITY = friendly, for fun and business. > LINUX COMMUNITY subset of LINUX. > > CERTIFICATE = must pay, limiting. > NT CERTIFICATE = must pay, limiting. > NT = NT CERTIFICATE (truth) > NT CERTIFICATE = subset of NT. > > LINUX = LINUX CERTIFICATE (false) > Therefore: LINUX != LINUX CERTIFICATE. LINUX CERTIFICATE not subset of > LINUX COMMUNITY. There are some members of the NT community whom I find very friendly, and some members in the Linux community who come across as jerks and whiners. This observation has nothing to do with the discussion at hand -- but then again, neither does our little chart of equations above. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 8 12:02:24 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:08:02 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Certification Issue X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 > Every time it comes up, a vocal bunch that want *no* certification > shout it down. Maybe that's shorthand for a bunch of objections they don't think anyone selling certifications is likely to address. What *precisely* are their objections? Multiple-guess tests can't work? It's a vendor motel? Political and financial incentives will produce monopolies? All of these objections are to certification as it is practiced today. However, nothing forces you to duplicate that broken process. This is Linux. If an existing approach doesn't work, try something else. The vigor of the objections tell you the rules that keep the process from being perverted are more important that the skill testing itself. You may be able to answer each and every one of SAGE's objections, while still reaching your objective of certifying Linux skill. Your main problem will be the cost of the tests. And even if you can't completely solve the objections, at least you can reduce them. You don't have to solve the very hard problem of granting true degrees. All you have to do is invent something that SAGE will find useful to them in hiring. Hint: What you need to make is a generic engineer test. Not a test on the fact base an engineer should have, but whether someone can *act* like an engineer: solve a real world problem in a sensible and economic way. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 8 12:02:35 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:29:30 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Certification Issue X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 You may already have most of a cheap, hard-to-pervert testing mechanism in hand. Remember my earlier post where I talked about cash handling procedures, and said peer-granted tests must be audited over a large enough group with bad enough consequences to reduce gamesmanship to an acceptable level? (i.e. only stupid people do it, and then they are caught and go to jail) Well, consider if the testing group is the entire set of Linux users, and the ranking process is community acceptance of your source code: Answers the real-world engineering question completely What is rewarded is automatically what is valued No cost to set up a fake real-world testing environment Community is large enough to eliminate much gamesmanship No bottlenecking through a ratings organization Zero cost of entry Ratings are hard to forge Encourages donation of great code to Linux Moves fsb'ers one step closer to a revenue model League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 8 12:02:49 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:50:06 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Certification Issue X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 > the ranking process is community acceptance of your source code While this is a wonderful scheme to rank developers, it's a terrible scheme to rank sysadmins. SA's produce integration, not code; and generally the less code the better the solution. This ranking should be clearly labeled as measuring development skill, and marked as totally inappropriate for measuring sysadmin skill. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 8 18:01:08 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:01:33 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Certification Issue X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 On Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 05:06:12PM -0500, John C Cusick wrote: > I have been out of town for the last week and > so read the last train of thoughts at one sitting. > For what it's worth, I've been looking for an > entry-level IS job for awhile now, in the local area only > and jobs are scarce so not alot of luck. The first thing > people want to know about and see are my certifications. ..... > I've been hacking around with computer hardware > for over 20 years. I took my first programming course in > Fortran on an IBM 360 Series H at Boston University in 1971. > Tough beans for me. I hate to suggest that certification won't help you, but based on your comments, you are also caught in the 'age bind' -- there is a major issue in the computer field about hiring only younger (and cheaper) employees. It hits those in the field and I suspect someone trying to enter the field also. It's too off topic for this discussion, so just check here: http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/glut.html -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 8 21:18:44 1999 To: rfi@on-the-net.com, linux-biz@lege.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:15:53 -0500 X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John C Cusick Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Certification Issue X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 Rich, Unfortunately, that is part of the problem, but I can deal with that. I'm willing to start cheap. (anything to get out of here and still have a little cash coming in untill I have some real experience) Another problem is that educational oppotunities are slim around here. (the nearest part time courses that are regularly scheduled are over two hours away). I am pretty sure that certification of some sort would give me an edge on the competition. At least that is what potential employers around here have told me, and since they are the ones doing the hiring... Thanks for the feedback and I'll check out the site. Network World also did an interesting piece on age bias in IS recently (nwfusion.com) JC On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:01:33 -0500 rfi from Rich Roth writes: >On Fri, Feb 05, 1999 at 05:06:12PM -0500, John C Cusick wrote: > >> I have been out of town for the last week and >> so read the last train of thoughts at one sitting. >> For what it's worth, I've been looking for an >> entry-level IS job for awhile now, in the local area only >> and jobs are scarce so not alot of luck. The first thing >> people want to know about and see are my certifications. > >..... > >> I've been hacking around with computer hardware >> for over 20 years. I took my first programming course in >> Fortran on an IBM 360 Series H at Boston University in 1971. >> Tough beans for me. > >I hate to suggest that certification won't help you, but based on >your comments, you are also caught in the 'age bind' -- there is a major >issue in the computer field about hiring only younger (and cheaper) employees. >It hits those in the field and I suspect someone trying to enter the >field also. > >It's too off topic for this discussion, so just check here: > http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/glut.html > >-- >Later ... > >Rich Roth --- On-the-Net > >Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 > >Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: >http://www.on-the-net.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 8 22:26:24 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:18:01 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: linux biz mailing list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Certification Issue X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: [ > > not cited and I don't have enough articles saved to figure out who it is, sorry. I assume it's a "he" but apologize if it's not. ] > > Every time it comes up, a vocal bunch that want *no* certification > > shout it down. > > Maybe that's shorthand for a bunch of objections they don't think Umm, unless he's lying, it's not shorthand for that at all. If they want "no" certification then it's not simply a case of not wanting certification that reproduces existing problems, it's a case of wanting no certificatio even if all those problems aren't reproduced. Now, certainly the existance of that viewpoint is open to debate, but I would bet my dollar on there being those sort of people out there doing precisely what he says, shouting everything down. Really, Brian, you normally are so persuasive, but this post is really premised on mutating the statement to which you reply into something that leaves you with better ground, and as a result is highly UNpersuasive to me. Just so we're clear: are you in favor of a certification process that does not replicate any of the problems you cite? jim back from his debate tournament this weekend ;-P -- Linux has been deployed in mission critical, commercial environments with an excellent pool of public testimonials... Linux outperforms many other UNIXes ... Linux is on track to eventually own the x86 UNIX market... Linux is a short/medium-term threat ... against NT Server. Linux's future strength against NT server ... is fed by ... perceived Scaleability, Interopability, Availability, and Manageability (SIAM) over NT. Linux can win.... Microsoft Internal Memo, annotated at http://www.opensource.org/halloween.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 9 00:01:19 1999 From: "Cary O'Brien" To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:52:06 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Signs of the times (ibm db/2) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 98 A quote from InfoWorld *. "With its beta issues resolved, IBM DB2 Universal Database 5.2 for Linux -- together with the Linux kernel update Version 2.2 -- looks promising as an enterprise-grade database solution. IT sites keen to implement database services on Linux should keep IBM's DB2 Universal Database 5.2 for Linux on the radar." My head shakes in disbelief. If someone had written something like this two years ago, they would have been accused of smoking something. It should be a very interesting year. -- cary * http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayTC.pl?/reviews/990208db2.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 9 00:01:39 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:10:29 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Certification Issue X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 > Maybe that's shorthand for a bunch of objections | Umm, unless he's lying, it's not shorthand for that at all. Both statements could be true. SAGE could have said precisely quote no certification unquote. They may have meant "no certification like the sort of thing I believe you are inevitably going to sell, and I know you won't answer my objections even if you give me lip service now, so I'm going to deny you the chance to plant a bad seed". Why am I justified in suggesting they meant something other than what they said? Because that's precisely what *I* meant when *I* said "no certification". If you go back with a list of the objections posted recently to linux-biz, and ask if they will support you if you answer all of them, you may get a much different answer. > Just so we're clear: are you in favor of a certification process > that does not replicate any of the problems you cite? Yes, that would be extremely spiffy. The process doesn't have to be perfect, but it does have to be a clear net win over the problems. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 9 00:01:49 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:23:12 -0800 (PST) From: Dwight Johnson To: Linux-Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Signs of the times (ibm db/2) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 100 On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Cary O'Brien wrote: > A quote from InfoWorld *. > > "With its beta issues resolved, IBM DB2 Universal Database 5.2 for > Linux -- together with the Linux kernel update Version 2.2 -- looks > promising as an enterprise-grade database solution. IT sites keen to > implement database services on Linux should keep IBM's DB2 Universal > Database 5.2 for Linux on the radar." > > My head shakes in disbelief. If someone had written something like > this two years ago, they would have been accused of smoking > something. Or how about this I just read in 'The Australian': "IDC estimates there are up to 20 million Linux users. It expects the number to grow to 50 million by next January." Dwight -- http://linuxtoday.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 9 18:01:30 1999 Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:47:15 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Interop Challange to Linux community from MS (sorta) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 101 I found this on a MS mailing I get: http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/exec/overview/NTInterop/ Seems like a document that deserves an answer since Linux is noticable missing in the systems NT 'interops' with. I'll start with a few notes: 1) Files: samba serves NT files 2) Email: imapd and pop-3 servers Outlook files 3) Web: Apache both serves MSIE web pages and runs on NT (weakly ) Then it could go beyond and add other systems Linux 'interops' with -- looks like a openning for a HOWTO. Weak start, but I wanted to get the discussion going - you get the idea I'll post the result on the business-options.com site I'm working on. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 9 20:00:59 1999 Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:18:42 -0700 From: Zed Shaw To: "'Evan Leibovitch'" , "'linux-biz@lege.com'" MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [linux-biz] RE: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 102 >You are welcome to design a program that operates this way; we choose not >to. The whole point of a cert program is to provide a yardstick that >employers and contractors can use as one of many tools to evaluate >candidates. If our program succeeds, it may well be used as such a tool >and we will encourage its use as such. Well, I guess that sums it up: I'd have to do it myself. Problem is, I'm against certifications like this. Nothing's worse than having to pay someone union dues to do my job. Especially when being in that union has nothing to do with my skill level. Just one more clique I have to join to receive recognition as a capable employee. Thanks for listening to me though. Oh well, I tried. I figured I'd at least try to voice my concerns about a certification like this, which I think is bound to succeed. No amount of argumentation on my part will ever change that fact, since there are obviously no objections from anyone else. And since popularity is obviously an indicator of correctness, morality, and intelligence, I guess I'm just wrong, evil, and stupid. So I bow out. No point in arguing when I'm obviously going against the majority. I'll probably end up getting this certificate too when it comes out. Wouldn't want to be left behind when the rest of my peers get their certificates and become better skilled than me (over night even). Oh well, that's the way the game works. Talk to everyone later, and sorry for sounding like a conspiratorial nutcase. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Zed A. Shaw ONCE: adv. Enough. Support Systems Analyst TWICE: adv. Once too often. Department of Communication -- Ambrose Bierce http://www.asu.edu/copp/communication ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 9 22:01:31 1999 Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:48:24 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Zed Shaw cc: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] RE: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Zed Shaw wrote: > Well, I guess that sums it up: I'd have to do it myself. Problem is, > I'm against certifications like this. Nothing's worse than having to > pay someone union dues to do my job. Ah, the old anti-union argument rears its ugly head. Too bad it lost its teeth ages ago. The differences between certification and union membership are too numerous to mention. The biggest one, of course, is that unlike unions, certs (if they are successful) are optionally implemented by the employer, not demanded the employee. Any employer is free to ignore the cert if you can adeuately prove, without verification, that you're as qualified as you say you are. > Oh well, I tried. I figured I'd at least try to voice my concerns about a > certification like this, which I think is bound to succeed. No amount of > argumentation on my part will ever change that fact, since there are > obviously no objections from anyone else. Spare us the voice-in-the-wilderness victimization BS, please. There are plenty of objectors. Many have been answered. Some have raised valid concerns that will help steer the direction we take. OTOH, some of them are just scared of the prospect of being asked to demonstrate their competence to an objective third party. And some of them can't tell the difference between a certification system and a trade union. > And since popularity is obviously an indicator of correctness, > morality, and intelligence, I guess I'm just wrong, evil, and stupid. I don't know about any of that, but your sarcasm sure sucks. > Talk to everyone later, and sorry for sounding like a conspiratorial > nutcase. Apology accepted. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 10 18:01:59 1999 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:46:14 +0100 From: "Magnus Lyckå" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [linux-biz] RE: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 First of all: lwn.net brings up the certification issues this week (well, last Thursday). There are obviously other efforts being made as well, and at least one of them seemed to be very similar to the effort of Evan et al. I hope it will be possible to join forces here. I don't claim that there have to be _one_ single linux competence certification authority, but let's just say that the state of the world championships in boxing has seemed fairly ridiculous for some years, and it would be sad if 'Certified Linux Engineer' etc could mean 10 different things depending on who signed the diploma. That would make the whole thing fairly pointless. I don't think Linus will want to get involved in 'blessing' particular certification 'institutes' or whatever---his interest is the kernel. Thus there has to be some other 'force' that lends some kind of authority to this certificate. If for instance several major distributors, such as Red Hat and Caldera would say that they back this certificate, that would mean that people could trust it. Another 'force' might be a well renowned educational body, such as Stanford University etc. I'm sure there are others, but there must be something that the non-expert can trust. Without such a backing I might as well print my own diploma. One could claim that a multitude of certification bodies is as reasonable as a multitude of Linux distributions. That's not true. Sure, there might be a multitude of providers of Linux _education_, but the main point with _certification_ is to give those who lack the skills themselves a decent chance to decide whether someone else has reasonable Linux skills. Then one can let the linux skilled person choose a proper distribution! To require that a non-techie who is about to hire a consultant to install a web or email server has to aquire such a familarity with the linux world so that he can figure out that if Evan's name is involved it won't be snake-oil...well that's much to request... Just look at this linux standard body that floated up for a while, where someone from nowhere climed to be the one who would make wonders. We didn't go for that snake-oil, but the press did, and how could we expect the poor sods who don't know shit about Linux but hire consultants to see the difference between serious business and charlatans. Linux is so new and odd to these guys. Zed Shaw wrote: > So I bow out. No point in arguing when I'm obviously going against the > majority. I'll probably end up getting this certificate too when it comes > out. Wouldn't want to be left behind when the rest of my peers get their > certificates and become better skilled than me (over night even). Oh well, > that's the way the game works. Noone claims that people will become better skilled because they are certified or that certified people are always better than non-certified people. If you think that's claimed you have completely misunderstood what this is about. I'm sure that those who are competent and experienced enough will be able to get the jobs they want without certifications. This is more a way for young people without a lot of references to show that they at least know something... As I see it, there are two aspects of this: >From the perspective of the one getting the certification it might (if all goes well) be good to realize that you are reasonably well skilled to take on this kind of job (hopefully), or if there are areas where you run into trouble, you can see what you need to work with to get more of an all round knowledge. Of course, this implies that the guys who made up the certification know what kinds of skills are needed, and obviously their choice won't match 100% to the skills needed in every linux-related job, but it might be better than the idea I have gotten when I was sitting at home playing with my little network. Also, the study material might point out aspects of linux work that you weren't familiar with, and teach you something new. For the poor sod who is about to hire an employee or consultant to work with linux and who don't know anything about these technical things himself, and who hasn't gotten any personal recommentations from someone he trusts, this certification can---together with all other aspects, like personality, CV, references---be a help in deciding whether this guy is capable or not. Sure, if the choice is between a previously unemployed 18 year old who seems generally lost but has a certification, and a 30 year old un-certified guy who has worked 5 years as a Unix sysadm and ran his own Linux based ISP business for 3 years...then the certification won't be of much help, but there will certainly be a lot of people trying to make a buck in the linux consultancy business in the coming years, and certification might be a way to reduce the chance that you accidentally hire someone who doesn't know half of what he ought to know. There is no simple solution to picking the right guy to do a job, but we have to provide some kinds of tools. We can't require that all prospective customers have the skills to judge all the people they hire in for a day or two by themselves. If they had these skills they wouldn't have much need for consultants... I guess there will be companies that make a policy of actually demanding certifications of consultants. Oh well, we have to make the choice to ignore these potential customers or take the cost of getting the certification. Whining about this is about as productive as whining about the fact that some potential customers are located in such a way that we have to spend an hour in the car twice a day, or that some customers won't pay as much as we want to get payed. Especially for anti-union people, it should be obvious that we as employees or consultants always have the ultimate choice. We can accept a contract we are offered, or we can look elsewhere for another contract. /Magnus -- Magnus Lyckå, ThinkWare AB, Folktrovägen 6C, S-907 51 Umeå tel: 090 - 19 84 98, GSM: 070 - 582 80 65, Fax: 070 - 612 80 65 mailto:magnus.lycka@tripnet.se http://www1.tripnet.se/~mly/mlis/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 10 18:02:18 1999 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:05:43 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?Magnus_Lyck=E5?= cc: "'linux-biz@lege.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Magnus Lyckå wrote: > First of all: lwn.net brings up the certification issues this week > (well, last Thursday). There are obviously other efforts being made > as well, and at least one of them seemed to be very similar to the > effort of Evan et al. I hope it will be possible to join forces here. > I don't claim that there have to be _one_ single linux competence > certification authority, but let's just say that the state of the > world championships in boxing has seemed fairly ridiculous for some > years, and it would be sad if 'Certified Linux Engineer' etc could > mean 10 different things depending on who signed the diploma. That > would make the whole thing fairly pointless. True; at very least it would make the process of selling Linux certification (in general) much more difficult. I've been in personal contact, at one time or another, with all of the other programs. There is significant common ground with some, and indeed there may be some consolidation possible as soon as during LinuxWorld. Without getting into the details, at least one program is driven by an unwillingness to be anything but in single control of Linux certification. > I don't think Linus will want to get involved in 'blessing' > particular certification 'institutes' or whatever---his interest is > the kernel. Correct, which is why we won't even try. > Thus there has to be some other 'force' that lends some > kind of authority to this certificate. If for instance several major > distributors, such as Red Hat and Caldera would say that they back > this certificate, that would mean that people could trust it. Another > 'force' might be a well renowned educational body, such as Stanford > University etc. I'm sure there are others, but there must be > something that the non-expert can trust. Without such a backing I > might as well print my own diploma. True, to a point. But consider that we have, working on our team, psychometrics specialists and veterans of creating other successful cert programs (ie, SCO's ACE and Novell's CNE). To a certain extent the success of a program will depend on its quality and trustworthiness. There are a number of endorsements being worked on as we speak. Note that big names alone do not guarantee quality or suitability. The LWN article preferred our approach over Red Hat's for a number of reasons. > One could claim that a multitude of certification bodies is as > reasonable as a multitude of Linux distributions. That's not > true. It is, to a point. We've already come across some who say that our proposal of $75 per test, for two tests per level, is just too expensive. Based on what we've researched so far we're not going to be able to do it less expensively in the short term without compromising security, even on a break-even basis. At least one other program is looking at web-based testing, at a significantly lower price than we're proposing. It will attract those to whom price is an overriding issue, but it wimply won't be respected by employers etc because it's *too* easy to cheat (while no system is 100% cheat-proof, some are much easier to fool than others). We've already resigned ourselves to the fact that we can't be everything to everyone, so we're targeting what we believe to be the single greatest needs for certification and are trying to address that as best we can. Others who want to address different perceived needs are welcome to do so; even if not, we can't stop new cert efforts anymore than Red Hat can prevent the creation of new distributions. > To require that a non-techie who is about to hire a consultant to > install a web or email server has to aquire such a familarity with the > linux world so that he can figure out that if Evan's name is involved > it won't be snake-oil...well that's much to request... It is. OTOH, a list of Linux "celebrity" endorsements doesn't guarantee quality, either. Some balance is necessary. > I'm sure that those who are competent and experienced enough will > be able to get the jobs they want without certifications. This is > more a way for young people without a lot of references to show > that they at least know something... Yes. More importantly, certification is designed to increase the *demand* for Linux skilled people, because it will make life easier for lazy HR departments that want someone else to develop a yardstick of competence because they can't be bothered to do it themselves. This will, we believe, increase the likelihood of Linux being implemented in such companies -- one of the knock against Linux for corporate use is that no such yardsticks are available. > Of course, this implies that the guys who made up the certification > know what kinds of skills are needed, and obviously their choice won't > match 100% to the skills needed in every linux-related job, but it > might be better than the idea I have gotten when I was sitting at home > playing with my little network. FWIW, this is the most hotly-debated single issue right now. And we're using whatever resources exist on this matter, including the work SAGE has done to date on Unix sysadmin job descriptions: http://www.usenix.org/sage/jobs/jobs-descriptions.html So we're not coming out of the blue with this. Thanks for the comments. - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 10 18:03:08 1999 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:10:21 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 106 > it would be sad if 'Certified Linux Engineer' etc could mean 10 > different things depending on who signed the diploma. That would > make the whole thing fairly pointless. Think of certification houses as universities: There are lots of them, they have similarities and differences, there are ivy leagues and state schools, and they compete. There is a whole infrastructure already in place to rate university performance against the real world. Relatively speaking, it works. > Thus there has to be some other 'force' that lends some kind of > authority to this certificate. If for instance several major > distributors, such as Red Hat and Caldera would say that they back > this certificate, that would mean that people could trust it. For a guarantee to mean anything, the guaranteeing party must stand to lose money if the guarantee is broken. The structure you propose does not have this property. The path by which Novell or Microsoft might lose money if one of their graduates is a complete incompetent is very flimsy and indirect. Therefore, these "guarantors" have no incentive to police their certification operation. This structure has the same problem if the vendors are Red Hat and Caldera in a consortium. If you want good quality certificates, make the certifying body provide cut-rate professional liability insurance to graduates. > Another 'force' might be a well renowned educational body, such as > Stanford University etc. I think this your best bet. Good universities stand to lose prestige (which directly brings research dollars) when their output quality drops. Although if you just want to certify training and not education, you should look to a trade school. Trade schools have a wonderfully practical feel to them that I think would be welcomed in the Linux camp. You want to learn to weld? Put this hat on. Auto mechanic? Here's a wrench. Linux mechanic? Here's a CD, there's a PC, I want a web site up in an hour. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 10 18:03:22 1999 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:22:45 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > If you want good quality certificates, make the certifying body > provide cut-rate professional liability insurance to graduates. Hmm. This is interesting. While the idea would certainly cost money, and as a result would have to be borne by the certificants in a break-even scheme such as we are planning, I'm not at all adverse to the idea if it's possible. Please expand. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 10 18:03:23 1999 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:37:36 +0100 From: "Magnus Lyckå" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Bartholomew CC: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 108 Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > Think of certification houses as universities: There are lots of them, > they have similarities and differences, there are ivy leagues and > state schools, and they compete. There is a whole infrastructure > already in place to rate university performance against the real > world. Relatively speaking, it works. I don't know about the US, but in Sweden I can't just claim to produce Master of Science degrees. We have state control over the educational system. If a HR guy hires someone with a Swedish M Sc degree he will know that it's not just a piece of paper. In case of MS and Novell etc certifications, it's the company that provides the products that verify that this guy 'can handle their stuff'. A web site calling itself 'the Linux Institute' or whatever has very little credibility by itself---particularly if there are many similar of various quality. As I said: It's one thing to have a multitude of training providers, but if a certificate is to mean anything, there has to be some kind of consensus about what the certificate means. > For a guarantee to mean anything, the guaranteeing party must stand to > lose money if the guarantee is broken. What a statement from a OSS guy! Trust is not just based on money. > If you want good quality certificates, make the certifying body > provide cut-rate professional liability insurance to graduates. And if you get hit by a car you can sue the issuer of the drivers licence and hope to win, right? :-) > I think this your best bet. Good universities stand to lose prestige > (which directly brings research dollars) when their output quality > drops. Although if you just want to certify training and not > education, you should look to a trade school. Trade schools have a > wonderfully practical feel to them that I think would be welcomed in > the Linux camp. You want to learn to weld? Put this hat on. Auto > mechanic? Here's a wrench. Linux mechanic? Here's a CD, there's a > PC, I want a web site up in an hour. Might be... We'll see. -- Magnus Lyckå MScEE, ThinkWare AB, Folktrovägen 6C, S-907 51 Umeå tel: 090 - 19 84 98, GSM: 070 - 582 80 65, Fax: 070 - 612 80 65 mailto:magnus.lycka@tripnet.se http://www1.tripnet.se/~mly/mlis/ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 10 20:01:37 1999 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:52:16 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 109 > What a statement from a OSS guy! Trust is not just based on money. The honest people and companies aren't the problem. What stops a sleezy company from offering a meaningless certification? What stops an ok company from secretly lowering their standards to gain more certification revenue, after the market accepts their brand? Putting their own money at risk on the performance of their graduates works nicely. It's self-policing. > And if you get hit by a car you can sue the issuer of the drivers > licence and hope to win, right? :-) As much as I truly despise the USA's culture of finding blame where there is only bad luck, lawsuits fishing for dollars, and wildly outrageous awards...yes. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 10 20:02:00 1999 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:45:17 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 110 > While the idea would certainly cost money, and as a result would > have to be borne by the certificants in a break-even scheme such as > we are planning Break-even or wildly profitable, all money ultimately comes from the customer. Either that or the "investors" are making a donation. > If you want good quality certificates, make the certifying body > provide cut-rate professional liability insurance to graduates. | Please expand. The goal is to make the certifiers take financial responsibility in some way for the claims they make. Perhaps the certifier should be an insurance agency with no collectivism. They don't want to see a doctor's report, they want to see code you wrote. The certifier carries risk because they know by their testing that the candidate is qualified to practice. Put enough money at risk that the certification will be good. Fire insurance companies know that their clients have good sprinkler systems. Or at least statistically they do, which is good enough. Train HR departments to not hire a consultant unless they have lots of business insurance. Which is not a new idea, it's a check box on a lot of consulting forms anyway. And then start companies to offer business insurance cheaply based on their knowledge of how to test for Linix skill. In this scenario you need lots of insurers, so they can compete on rates as they invent new Linux skill tests. Professional liability insurance is an extreme example, because a lawsuit is such an ugly and painful way of resolving a dispute. In any reasonable country it should be a rare event, reserved for those cases of gross incompetentance which are arguably fraud. I much prefer something more private and fine-grained than lawsuits. How about consulting with a money-back guarantee? If you don't like our service, we delete our work and don't bill you. The certifier evaluates the customer and the consultant; one of them gets fired. I think if you turn the certification problem into a money risk problem, it is quite likely to get solved satisfactorily. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 10 21:41:53 1999 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:54:03 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 111 On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > I much prefer something more private and fine-grained than lawsuits. > How about consulting with a money-back guarantee? If you don't like > our service, we delete our work and don't bill you. The certifier > evaluates the customer and the consultant; one of them gets fired. > I think if you turn the certification problem into a money risk > problem, it is quite likely to get solved satisfactorily. This is starting to sound like the auto club, which certifies garages that (among other things) agree to allow the club to arbitrate disputes with customers. This gets into issues beyond pure testing and grading, and into things such as codes of ethics; while it's a worthwile idea, and I personally like it, it goes beyond the original scope and mandate of the group. Still, you have my word that this issue will be raised and considered. It does have merit. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 10 21:42:12 1999 From: Matthew.Rice@ftlsol.com To: bb@wv.com (Brian Bartholomew) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:23:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 Shouldn't this discussion be moved to the linux-cert list? Brian Bartholomew writes: > doctor's report, they want to see code you wrote. The certifier > carries risk because they know by their testing that the candidate is > qualified to practice. Put enough money at risk that the > certification will be good. Fire insurance companies know that their > clients have good sprinkler systems. Or at least statistically they > do, which is good enough. But what are we certifying? Technical competence, right? From my experience projects don't fail from a lack of technical expertise. They fail because the project is underfunded, undermanaged, overly and unnecessarily complicated, insufficiently specified or some other reason. Is the certification body supposed to be guaranteeing 'failed due to incompetence' projects? Who decides why a project failed? > I much prefer something more private and fine-grained than lawsuits. > How about consulting with a money-back guarantee? If you don't like > our service, we delete our work and don't bill you. The certifier > evaluates the customer and the consultant; one of them gets fired. How can we fire someone else's customer? And there are financial risks beyond the cost of the project. What if, because of the failed project, the customer is unable to carry on business (or just loses some)? > I think if you turn the certification problem into a money risk > problem, it is quite likely to get solved satisfactorily. I think that you're assuming this to be single person work. What if this is an involved project with lots of expertise required and not everyone is a certified Linux whatever? Is the certifying/insurance body still on the hook? Or do we make the certificate/insurance only applicable when working on a one man project? -- matthew rice starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 10 21:42:52 1999 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:41:10 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Matthew.Rice@ftlsol.com cc: Brian Bartholomew , linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 113 On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 Matthew.Rice@ftlsol.com wrote: > Shouldn't this discussion be moved to the linux-cert list? Indeed, much of it already has :-). - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 11 00:03:05 1999 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:58:18 -0500 X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John C Cusick Subject: [linux-biz] LINUX WINS *PC WEEK* LABS' ANALYST CHOICE X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 114 http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adtewzd/www.zdnet.com/products/stories/reviews /0,4161,387766,00.html *PC Week* Labs tested the new Linux 2.2 kernel released last week. Marketing guy Rob Smahl says their findings make interesting reading. Click the link to find out why the experts gave it their Analyst Choice award. __________________________________________________ Thought you all might get a kick out of this. Ziff-Davis, of all places ... (Geez, I guess this means I _gotta_ get certified now :-) JC ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 12 06:00:55 1999 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:52:13 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 115 > Shouldn't this discussion be moved to the linux-cert list? Sigh. Sign me up. I can't steer if I don't put an oar in the water. > But what are we certifying? Technical competence, right? Technical competence of individuals. > From my experience projects don't fail from a lack of technical > expertise. Whoa! We're certifying technical competence of individuals, not guaranteeing the outcomes of projects. That's a completion or performance bond, which is something completely different. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Feb 15 22:05:14 1999 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:10:45 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 116 On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > In the beginning, cheezy tests make for good marketing and bad > certification. Over time, the public recognizes cheezy tests > have formed inbred union monopolies and don't identify real > skill, and the tests become bad marketing. > > In the beginning, tests of merit make for bad marketing, > because they show few people have a high skill level. Such > tests are also wildly expensive and inconvenient. Over time, > the public recognizes the certified practitioners are > genuinely capable, and they become good marketing. This doesn't at all match reality. One could argue that the CNE -- a classic example put forward of the 'cheezy' test category -- has been significant factor in Novell's survival amidst the coming of NT. Programs such as MSCE and A+ are wildly successful, from the standpoints that many people are getting certified and many people are requesting or honoring the certification. The "over time" you claimed has not happened yet, and no proof exists that it ever will. This may be because either "the public" is dumber than you give it credit for, or because it disagrees with your assessments and appreciates the (knowingly limited) exam programs as they exist. We all know that multiple-choice exams don't give us as much flexibility as essay-based or fix-this-computer type questions. But we have already received many complains suggesting that even the $75 per exam I've been throwing around (for multiple choice exams) as a ballpark is far too expensive. So we are faced with a compromise -- to try to develop a set of exams that does the best job possible given the limitations at hand, while making the program reasonably accessible. We make no claims that ceritification programs are a substitute for good interviews, demonstrated problem-solving skills, the ability to communicate reasonably well, or a familiarity with the employers' syetems and applications. A certification program can provide a base level of desired skills -- if they can't even pass the basics, what point exists in proceeding to further levels? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 06:02:02 1999 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:48:36 -0500 From: "Gaylon B. Vorwaller" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Evan Leibovitch CC: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 It has been interesting following this discussion. I'm not a Linux professional, and I admire those in the group who have genuine expertise with Linux and related disciplines. However, having been "in the business" for 20 years, I believe that the value of certification is as Evan states below. When I'm in a hiring position, either of a consultant for short term work, or of an employee for a long-term committment, I look at education, certifications, experience, references, and interviews, and I rely on other experts to do the expert interview, and maybe even take a look at a sample of the applicant's work. Certification, all else being equal, could certainly be a deciding factor, especially if the certification is an endorsement by a recognized educational organization or standards board. And, it has an effect of leveling the playing field, to some extent. Also, I would be suspect of any certification that was NOT inconvenient, or that didn't cost at least $500. This is a matter of professional investment, and IMHO should not be an obstacle to any serious professional. Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > One could argue that the CNE -- a classic example put forward of the > 'cheezy' test category -- has been significant factor in Novell's survival > amidst the coming of NT. Programs such as MSCE and A+ are wildly > successful, from the standpoints that many people are getting certified > and many people are requesting or honoring the certification. > > The "over time" you claimed has not happened yet, and no proof exists that > it ever will. This may be because either "the public" is dumber than you > give it credit for, or because it disagrees with your assessments and > appreciates the (knowingly limited) exam programs as they exist. > > We all know that multiple-choice exams don't give us as much flexibility > as essay-based or fix-this-computer type questions. But we have already > received many complains suggesting that even the $75 per exam I've been > throwing around (for multiple choice exams) as a ballpark is far too > expensive. > > So we are faced with a compromise -- to try to develop a set of exams > that does the best job possible given the limitations at hand, while > making the program reasonably accessible. > > We make no claims that ceritification programs are a substitute for > good interviews, demonstrated problem-solving skills, the ability to > communicate reasonably well, or a familiarity with the employers' syetems > and applications. A certification program can provide a base level of > desired skills -- if they can't even pass the basics, what point exists in > proceeding to further levels? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 06:02:38 1999 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:04:45 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: "Gaylon B. Vorwaller" cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 118 On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Gaylon B. Vorwaller wrote: > However, having been "in the business" for 20 years, I believe that the value > of certification is as Evan states below. Thanks for the good words. But.... > I would be suspect of any certification that was NOT inconvenient, or > that didn't cost at least $500. This is a matter of professional > investment, and IMHO should not be an obstacle to any serious > professional. I suspect that we may end up failing these criteria too, if we get our way. We've committed to keeping costs down, to act as a non-profit on a cost-recovery basis, to no more than two exams per level, and to use a service such as Sylvan or VUE to make it as easy as possible to take (as opposed to some schemes which require you to go to the testers' locations). The TLI proposal is being designed for worldwide deployment, and we are well aware of the fact that $75US per test is far more of a financial sacrifice in some economies than others -- yet exams cost us more to deliver outside North America. Again, it boils down to striking a delicate balance between accessibility, quality, and reliability. So please don't hold it against us (too badly) that we're trying to design a program that may cost less than $500, or may be more convenient than you might like :-). - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 12:00:55 1999 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:03:38 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 119 > One could argue that the CNE -- a classic example put forward of the > 'cheezy' test category -- has been significant factor in Novell's > survival amidst the coming of NT. Programs such as MSCE and A+ are > wildly successful, from the standpoints that many people are getting > certified and many people are requesting or honoring the > certification. Who cares about Novell's survival when their solution sucks? The nature of Linux is to care about business success AND the customer. If all you care about is business success, emulate Microsoft. > We make no claims that ceritification programs are a substitute for > good interviews Yes, that is precisely the claim you make. You offer certification as an alternative to HR learning how to evaluate Linux skills. > Also, I would be suspect of any certification that was NOT > inconvenient, or that didn't cost at least $500. This is a matter > of professional investment, and IMHO should not be an obstacle to > any serious professional. Oh yeah. Let's make them pay 20 years of union dues before we hire them so we know they *really* want it. What you are doing is raising your costs; both directly in the form of irrelevant hurdles to jump, and indirectly by reducing competition for your dollars. This is not in your interests. With a dues-based filter like this you will mostly find people who can't get a better job elsewhere. Wake up, people. You can shop smarter than this. What you want to find is the person who can do your job best at the cheapest price. There are many good ways to approach this, but erecting hurdles that incent the best people to leave the field for greener pastures is not one of them. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 12:01:41 1999 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:10:15 -0800 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 120 Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > > In the beginning, cheezy tests make for good marketing and bad > > certification. Over time, the public recognizes cheezy tests > > have formed inbred union monopolies and don't identify real > > skill, and the tests become bad marketing. > > > > In the beginning, tests of merit make for bad marketing, > > because they show few people have a high skill level. Such > > tests are also wildly expensive and inconvenient. Over time, > > the public recognizes the certified practitioners are > > genuinely capable, and they become good marketing. > > This doesn't at all match reality. > > One could argue that the CNE -- a classic example put forward of the > 'cheezy' test category -- has been significant factor in Novell's survival > amidst the coming of NT. Programs such as MSCE and A+ are wildly > successful, from the standpoints that many people are getting certified > and many people are requesting or honoring the certification. There was a time, not so long ago, that A+ certification was an unknown, but as mentioned, it counts for something now. It has helped me on several occasions. > We all know that multiple-choice exams don't give us as much flexibility > as essay-based or fix-this-computer type questions. But we have already > received many complains suggesting that even the $75 per exam I've been > throwing around (for multiple choice exams) as a ballpark is far too > expensive. I paid more than $75/exam for the A+ tests back in '95. I think there is something to be said for a price that holds some meaning for people. A cheap test price makes it easy for those less committed to participate. I looked at the testing costs as an investment, and I still do. I will shell out the funds for a Linux certification when the time comes. -- Regards, Bradley J. Willson d.b.a. Willson Consulting Services http://www.ifixcomputers.com -- "This millennium can't end yet, we're still missing 22 minutes; 18 from Nixon, 4 from Gates" -- Unknown ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 18:02:15 1999 From: "awan kelana" To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:01:53 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Subject: [linux-biz] xbase on linux & intranet ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 121 hello ... there is foxpro on windows, any one know what is on Linux (xwindow)? there is cliper on dos, any one know what is on Linux (text) ? what is the differences concept between LAN and intranet? what will i need to build intranet with linux? note: actually i feel 'jealous' to all guys in this mail list. i want to participate like them, to discuss some thing about linux. but i just a beginner... i still have many to learn. :| n. awan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 18:02:19 1999 From: "awan kelana" To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:01:34 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Subject: [linux-biz] xbase on linux & intranet ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 122 hello ... there is foxpro on windows, any one know what is on Linux (xwindow)? there is cliper on dos, any one know what is on Linux (text) ? what is the differences between lan and intranet? what will i need to build intranet with linux? note: actually i feel 'jealous' to all guys in this mail list. i want to participate like them, to discuss some thing about linux. but i just a beginner... i still have many to learn. :| n. awan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 18:02:24 1999 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:06:50 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: "Bradley J. Willson" cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 123 On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Bradley J. Willson wrote: > > We all know that multiple-choice exams don't give us as much flexibility > > as essay-based or fix-this-computer type questions. But we have already > > received many complains suggesting that even the $75 per exam I've been > > throwing around (for multiple choice exams) as a ballpark is far too > > expensive. > > I paid more than $75/exam for the A+ tests back in '95. I think there is > something to be said for a price that holds some meaning for people. A > cheap test price makes it easy for those less committed to participate. > I looked at the testing costs as an investment, and I still do. I will > shell out the funds for a Linux certification when the time comes. I put it this way: The necessary investment and commitment is in the skill themselves. What we will be testing will not be easy -- some of the people working on the exam development will be pushing the multiple choice format to its limits, in the development of a basic-skills-checking mechanism that will not be a breeze for anyone but the most experienced. The investment required to gain the skills being tested -- whether it's thousands of dollars in classroom training, or hundreds of hours in attending user group meetings, participating on mailing lists, and tinkering with one's own Linux system -- is significant enough for me. One significant difference between a Linux project and the MS or Novell and most other similar programs is that it's very affordable for anyone to get their own Linux system, and publicly-available documentation, though sometimes cryptic, is widely available. The mental process necessary to understand the Linux mindset, itself, is a significant commitment -- it took me a good six months to fully get into it, and that was after a decade of experience in the supposedly-similar world of Unix. So I have no problem defending the desire to make the certification process as accessible and affordable as can be. Right now, crossing the barriers to understanding Linux, sufficient to take the tests we are developing, already demonstrates significant investment. The knowledge that certification will allow *some* people to get otherwise unavailable jobs, or better pay at existing jobs, provides adequate rebuttal against freeware purists who demand that certification be free. But I see no need to erect additional barriers, by making a Linux certification any more expensive than it needs to be. As it is, there's already an inequity here in that the individual is paying for certification in order to make the employers' life easier. There's no reason to make the damage any worse than need be. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 18:02:27 1999 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:26:40 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: awan kelana cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: xbase on linux & intranet ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 124 On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, awan kelana wrote: > hello ... > > there is foxpro on windows, any one know what is on Linux (xwindow)? > there is cliper on dos, any one know what is on Linux (text) ? http://www.wgs.com/fsad.html Ignore most of the marketbabble. Flagship is a native-to-Linux clone of Clipper, updated quite a bit from the DOS days. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 18:02:44 1999 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:47:02 -0200 (EDT) From: Jose Carlos Benfati cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: xbase on linux & intranet ??? To: linux-biz@lege.com X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 125 You have a tool called FlagShip (www.wgs.com) that can compile clipper programs on Linux. It has tools to deal with fox pro source code as well, but I never used those extras. But what I can say is that for summer 87 and 5.x clipper programs, flagship presents a very efficient solution, both in terms of final performance and easyness of migration. good luck Jose Carlos Benfati ZZP Consultoria http://zzp.com.br On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, awan kelana wrote: > hello ... > > there is foxpro on windows, any one know what is on Linux (xwindow)? > there is cliper on dos, any one know what is on Linux (text) ? > > what is the differences between lan and intranet? > what will i need to build intranet with linux? > > note: > actually i feel 'jealous' to all guys in this mail list. i want to > participate like them, to discuss some thing about linux. but i just a > beginner... i still have many to learn. :| > > > n. awan > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > From popmail Tue Feb 16 18:02:47 1999 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:32:18 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 126 On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > > One could argue that the CNE -- a classic example put forward of the > > 'cheezy' test category -- has been significant factor in Novell's > > survival amidst the coming of NT. > Who cares about Novell's survival when their solution sucks? "Sucks" is in the eye of the beholder. The program is successful by just about any yardstick one can apply. And I think Novell itself cares about its survival, and would not tolerate any cert plan that did not benefit it and its users. > The nature of Linux is to care about business success AND the > customer. If all you care about is business success, emulate > Microsoft. Dream on. While we can all agree on the technical merit (or lack thereof) of its products, Microsoft has achieved at least a little of its success by determining consumer needs and filling those needs. Many of these needs have yet to be addressed by the Linux community. > > We make no claims that ceritification programs are a substitute for > > good interviews > > Yes, that is precisely the claim you make. Where do we state that? It takes more than a conspiratorial mind to demonstrate that such an assumption is widespread. If we need to make that point clearer, I have not problem with that. > You offer certification as an alternative to HR learning how to > evaluate Linux skills. Some basic foundations; not everything necessarily required for the job being applied for, but enough to sift out the cruft. It's reasonable to determine that anyone who doesn't know the foundation is unprepared to handle the job-specific details. Certification is just another tool. An intelligent organization will use it as part of an arsenal. A stpid organization will rely on it more than it should. Does the fact certification may be abused justify not making one at all? Sorry, but if we refused to produce any good that could be abused, there would be very little around us. > > Also, I would be suspect of any certification that was NOT > > inconvenient, or that didn't cost at least $500. This is a matter > > of professional investment, and IMHO should not be an obstacle to > > any serious professional. > Oh yeah. Let's make them pay 20 years of union dues before we hire > them so we know they *really* want it. You can keep trotting out your union metaphor until you're blue in the face; nobody's buying it. As I've told others, I don't believe in making certification needlessly expensive and inaccessible, in order to demonstrate commitment. I don't believe in that; certification exists to objectively measure basic skills. It can't measure motivation any more than it can measure problem-solving instincts. And I for one do not believe that the interest of the program is serves by erecting artificial barriers, especially financial ones. As I said, TLI is trying to strike a middle ground between "no union dues" and "people need to demonstrate a commitment". I think we're approaching the dilemma as best as we can, and I am confident that the balance we're achieving will be both just and widely practical. > Wake up, people. You can shop smarter than this. Oh please; spare us the condescention. Most of the world sees the limitations in CNE-style certification, but sees the value of it as well. Your argument that it should existn't unless it can be everything to everyone is vapour. -- evan leibovitch starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux brampton, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 20:03:01 1999 To: bb@wv.com Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:11:07 -0500 X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John C Cusick Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 127 Brian wrote; >> We make no claims that ceritification programs are a substitute for >> good interviews > >Yes, that is precisely the claim you make. You offer certification >as an alternative to HR learning how to evaluate Linux skills. > jeez, brian, our mfg firm hires in the neighborhood of around 20 to 25 different professions at a college level, and gosh knows many at a skilled trades level. If HR had enough time to learn how to evaluate all these various professionals and gained enough knowledge to do it right, why wouldn't the firm just hire a 1000 HR guys and skip the pro's. We'd save a ton of money. No offense of course, but I don't consider myself a dummy and I've been using Linux in a networked environment for a couple of years now and I think I'd have a tough time evaluating people who would have the skills to operate any UNIX system in a large enterprise. Imagine if I would also need the requisite skills and knowledge to hire over a thousand total: lawyers, comptrollers, Electrical Engineers, Mechanical Engineers, CNC Programmers, CNC operators, PLC Maintenence, Carpenters, Machine Installers, Field Service Personnel, Machine tool builders and finishers for all our products - Super-Precision Collets, Chucks, Collet Closers, Lathes (tool-room and CNC), Milling Centers, and Grinders. Not to mention advertising, marketing, sales and all the support for them too. Either I'd have to have a about an additional 40 or 50 HR people with enough knowledge in one or two each of these fields or I would have to be a true genius extrordinaire. No company that I know of is able to do all this. The answer: College Degrees, Union Journeyman Certification, State Certification, Federal Certification. And of course, Above All, experience and proven track record. I really think that this subject is getting played out. Experience counts the most, Certs just help HR guys who are already bogged down and overworked sort the wheat from the chaffe. See you all around... (I gotta go take some of my HR people's time up with some petty complaints and requests. They don't do much anyway, there are always one out of the three of them sitting at their desks just hangin' out) JC ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 16 22:38:15 1999 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:32:55 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 128 > Does the fact certification may be abused justify not making one at > all? It depend on the percentage of abuse. Will it be a net improvement? If most use will be abuse, you probably shouldn't make it. > If HR had enough time to learn how to evaluate all these various > professionals and gained enough knowledge to do it right, why > wouldn't the firm just hire a 1000 HR guys and skip the pro's. HR doesn't have to do it, they just have to evaluate it. I can evaluate the performance of a mutual fund without knowing anything about how to run one. Unfortunately, Linux skill can't be distilled into something as simple as annualized return. I do believe it can be distilled for evaluation purposes, just not by a multiple-guess test. > Either I'd have to have a about an additional 40 or 50 HR people > with enough knowledge in one or two each of these fields or I would > have to be a true genius extrordinaire. No company that I know of is > able to do all this. You can't evaluate a candidate from a position of ignorance. Your company will just be taken advantage of by a fraud. The cost comparison of bad HR is not between the salaries of keyword-matchers vs. senior engineers, it's between excellent work product and mediocre. If a better HR person moves the average cost effectiveness of everyone hired up just few percent, they cover their salary differential over a keyword matcher. More likely they will move it up a lot, and the company will win a lot. If you had a senior MechE and a senior Machinist in your HR department, you could do some fine HR work at a great price. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 17 00:00:56 1999 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:47:06 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux certification website X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 129 > Imagine if I would also need the requisite skills and knowledge to > hire over a thousand total: lawyers, comptrollers, Electrical > Engineers, Mechanical Engineers, CNC Programmers, CNC operators, PLC > Maintenence, Carpenters, Machine Installers, Field Service > Personnel, Machine tool builders and finishers for all our products > - Super-Precision Collets, Chucks, Collet Closers, Lathes (tool-room > and CNC), Milling Centers, and Grinders. Not to mention > advertising, marketing, sales and all the support for them too. That counterargument is a straw man; the real world works better than that. The positions they rarely hire like lawyers and comptrollers are evaluated with skills borrowed from non-HR people (i.e. get the executives and board to interview them). The mainstream machine people they hire a lot of (mainly because they have high turnover, but that's a different problem) they retain the evaluation skills to be good at hiring. They may implement this by having one senior machinist on HR staff at $100K/year, who will produce astonishingly better HR results than 3 keyword-matchers at $33K/year. This is what Linux certification should be about -- producing astonishingly better HR results than are commonly available today. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 17 06:02:18 1999 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:11:09 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: xbase on linux & intranet ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 130 On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 07:01:34AM -0800, awan kelana wrote: > there is foxpro on windows, any one know what is on Linux (xwindow)? > there is cliper on dos, any one know what is on Linux (text) ? You can find a free release of X2c, a cross between Clipper S'87 and Foxpro - text based, with a web CGI interface also -- at: http://www.on-the-net.com/x2c > what is the differences between lan and intranet? Nothing except and Intranet would normally use TCP/IP and a lan could use other protocols -- BUT today pretty much everything is over TCP/IP. > what will i need to build intranet with linux? A linux cd and a box -- it's the norm for linux -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 17 18:07:55 1999 From: "Chris Tyler" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:46:09 +0000 X-Face: *,j)>7_m)(4b*#BqizA=&l|1:3Hv?`;M@b(Vxd\)z\,ptx5nSoGeAqsNMczD,3HSQ0&j'K0rsz(S_?Q?Um.xU@T]*iuYzE0C![[A[03Su&`gX#AZ$EQOJ=naqi^auv&F[WDYVu@]A%Pv X-URL: http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 24feb96 Caldera) To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [linux-biz] Shake my head... X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 131 Here's one that makes me just shake my head: > Little is known about Cool's timing or feature set. Microsoft officials say > that no one at Microsoft has written a line of code for the potential > language. > > But developers outside of the company insist that members of Microsoft's tools > group are actively evangelizing Cool as an alternative to Sun's Java. (from http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2209767,00.html) It's not a Linux topic, but that clipping is going into the "Reasons to Forget MS" file in my advocacy directory. Wanted: Vapourware Salesperson. Must be proficient at selling a product which does not exist. Experience in the use of delaying tactics, doublespeak, vague promises, and deniable statements considered an asset. Rapid e-mail deletion habits a must. Great vapo^H^H^H^Hstock options. Apply to Box 32, Redmond WA. -- Chris Tyler Global Proximity Corporation http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ Internet and Computer Consulting (519) 469-3439 / fax (519) 469-8653 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 19 22:01:01 1999 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:40:58 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Did the list die ? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 132 Haven't seen anything in a few days . -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Feb 19 22:01:17 1999 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:37:20 +0000 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rfi from Rich Roth , Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Did the list die ? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 133 rfi from Rich Roth wrote: > > Haven't seen anything in a few days . > > -- > Later ... > > Rich Roth --- On-the-Net > > Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 > > Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com > ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ > ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe So much going on, there's no time for posting? I hope for as much! -- Regards, Bradley J. Willson d.b.a. Willson Consulting Services http://www.ifixcomputers.com -- "This millennium can't end yet, we're still missing 22 minutes; 18 from Nixon, 4 from Gates" -- Unknown From popmail Sat Feb 20 00:01:46 1999 From: twm139@its.to X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-beta-042198 [p0] on Linux Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:27:51 -0700 (MST) To: rfi from Rich Roth Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] RE: xbase on linux & intranet ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 134 On 17-Feb-99 rfi from Rich Roth wrote: > On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 07:01:34AM -0800, awan kelana wrote: > >> there is foxpro on windows, any one know what is on Linux (xwindow)? >> there is cliper on dos, any one know what is on Linux (text) ? > > You can find a free release of X2c, a cross between Clipper S'87 and Foxpro > - text based, with a web CGI interface also -- at: > http://www.on-the-net.com/x2c > >> what is the differences between lan and intranet? > > Nothing except and Intranet would normally use TCP/IP and a lan could use > other protocols -- BUT today pretty much everything is over TCP/IP. > >> what will i need to build intranet with linux? > > A linux cd and a box -- it's the norm for linux Actually if it is an XBase database it is really very simple to access it via CGI and Perl without requiring much in the way of proprietary software. I have used XBase on several ocassions (When a real database management system was not an option) and it works very well. Perl has a great SQL like interface allowing you to make simply sql queries of your XBase tables. Just my $0.02 Terrence > > > -- > Later ... > > Rich Roth --- On-the-Net > > Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 > > Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com > ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ > ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe ---------------------------------- E-Mail: twm139@its.to Date: 19-Feb-99 Time: 15:26:14 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- From popmail Sat Feb 20 06:02:55 1999 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:12:19 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Lee Green To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Did the list die ? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 135 On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Bradley J. Willson wrote: > rfi from Rich Roth wrote: > > Haven't seen anything in a few days . > So much going on, there's no time for posting? I hope for as much! Business is booming, LinuxWorld Expo is going on in a couple of weeks and we all have to get our displays ready, etc. Plus some of us don't give a hoot about certification pro or con (I have no intention of ever going to work for a company that uses brain-dead HR droids to hire employees, which is where certification counts). -- Eric Lee Green eric@linux-hw.com http://www.linux-hw.com/~eric "Linux represents a best-of-breed UNIX, that is trusted in mission critical applications..." -- internal Microsoft memo ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 20 12:01:07 1999 From: "awan kelana" To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:35:15 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Subject: [linux-biz] xbase class??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 136 what is the differences of xbase at db2 or oracle class with foxpro/flagship/clipper class? how i know which class i need? has any one here ever use cgl++? what plus and minus of it, compare with flagship? n. awan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 20 12:01:11 1999 From: "awan kelana" To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:39:02 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Subject: [linux-biz] xbase class & etc. ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 137 what is the differences of xbase at db2 or oracle class with foxpro/flagship/clipper class? how i know which class i need? has any one here ever use cgl++? what plus and minus of it, compare with flagship? can any one here help me to find good (or the best) hosting or virtual server service? any recomendation (low price needed ;-) )? (i can't wait to get online). n. awan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 20 18:01:28 1999 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:20:57 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: xbase class & etc. ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 138 On Fri, Feb 19, 1999 at 11:39:02PM -0800, awan kelana wrote: > what is the differences of xbase at db2 or oracle class with > foxpro/flagship/clipper class? how i know which class i need? IMHO, This is really a topic for the Xbase news groups. > has any one here ever use cgl++? what plus and minus of it, compare with > flagship? What is cgl++ - you have a web reference for it ? > can any one here help me to find good (or the best) hosting or virtual > server service? any recomendation (low price needed ;-) )? (i can't > wait to get online). Check at www.budgetweb.com - they have a pretty good database of companies doing hosting services. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 20 20:01:19 1999 From: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) To: edw@detel.com Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:31:32 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Burlington Coat Factory to deploy Linux... X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 139 >From an article in Computer World Magazine Burlington Coat Factory to deploy Linux... Over the next 12 to 18 months, Burlington will install Linux on 1,150 computers in its 250 stores, Prince said. "Linux has come along so strongly, and the price of Intel PCs has dropped so much . . . [that it] is attractive from both a price and performance standpoint. It's free, and it runs like the wind." http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/9902159106 -- Ed Weinberg, Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider edw@detel.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Feb 20 20:01:24 1999 From: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) To: edw@detel.com Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:28:00 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] SCO To Deliver Linux Compatibility X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 140 SCO To Deliver Linux Compatibility. SCO is about to release a new version of UnixWare 7. The ability to run Linux programs is one of them. Linux has been able to run SCO programs for several years now. SCO is the second Unix which runs on the i86 platform in the last two weeks that has announced that they will add functionality to run Linux programs. With IDC's recent report of sales of Linux about the same as ALL OTHER UNIXES COMBINED, It makes sense for the commercial operating systems to add the functionality to their operating system to run the vast array of applications which are being developed for Linux. One criticism of Unix is the market fragmentation. Bringing them together to a common standard should be better for everyone. It is, however, odd that the standard that the Unixes are moving toward is the open source version. >From an article in ZD's Sm@rt Reseller Magazine http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2212772,00.html -- Ed Weinberg, Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider edw@detel.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 21 06:01:05 1999 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott D. Webster" To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] LinuxVAR.org X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 141 Take a look at http://www.linuxvar.org. Phil Hughes is trying to start a Linux VAR association. -- Scott D. Webster swebster@carroll.com Etc Services Voice: 201.385.7113 Linux, UNIX, & TCP/IP Network Consulting Pager: 800.379.2402 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 21 06:01:07 1999 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:24:42 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott D. Webster" To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Public perception of computers/software X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 142 I've been thinking about something lately. I've read a few press stories on Linux lately where they said something to the effect that Linux has "the tendency not to crash". That sounds so backwards to me. It's like me listing "the tendency not to murder people" as one of my good character traits. :-> It seems that people have grown so accustomed to buggy OS's that when Linux simply does what it's supposed to do, it comes across as something new and different. -- Scott D. Webster swebster@carroll.com Etc Services Voice: 201.385.7113 Linux, UNIX, & TCP/IP Network Consulting Pager: 800.379.2402 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 21 06:01:28 1999 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:34:24 +1100 From: Damian A Ivereigh X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Scott D. Webster" CC: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Public perception of computers/software X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 143 Scott D. Webster wrote: > > I've been thinking about something lately. I've read a few press > stories on Linux lately where they said something to the effect that Linux > has "the tendency not to crash". That sounds so backwards to me. It's > like me listing "the tendency not to murder people" as one of my good > character traits. :-> It seems that people have grown so accustomed to > buggy OS's that when Linux simply does what it's supposed to do, it comes > across as something new and different. There was a related article on slashdot a few days ago - but I can't find it now. In there the author described using NT5 beta 2 when it initially came out and how unstable it was. He now continues to use it and it is fairly stable. The same OS, now it's stable - why? Because the user has been trained. Trained not to click on this, just after that - it crashes the OS! People learn what they should avoid to stop it crashing. Its a sort of pavlovian dog effect. I think this is what you are seeing in the press these days - a trained populace, who learns very quickly that they need to save their files often, or IS departments that build NT reboots into their daily schedule. Damian -- ______________________________________________________________________ * Damian Ivereigh * || || * Cisco Systems, Inc. * * MIS Printer Admin * .||||. .||||. * Sydney, Australia * * Linux Bigot * ..:||||||:..:||||||:.. * +61 2 8448 7344 * * damian@cisco.com * cisco Systems, Inc. * Fax: +61 2 8448 7228 * *______________________________________________________________________* ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 21 18:02:10 1999 From: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) To: edw@detel.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:58:55 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Linux article in NY times and CT Post X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 144 >From Sunday NY Times: The Rebel Code An article about linux http://www.nytimes.com/partners/aol/mag/article2.html This should be available for the next week. There was also an article in the CT Post on Wednesday 2/20 about linux. CT Post does not appear to archive their stories. -- Ed Weinberg, Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider edw@detel.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 21 22:34:02 1999 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:50:45 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Lee Green To: "Scott D. Webster" cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: LinuxVAR.org X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 145 On Sat, 20 Feb 1999, Scott D. Webster wrote: > Take a look at http://www.linuxvar.org. Phil Hughes is trying to > start a Linux VAR association. Hmm. Is Phil Hughes the right person to do this? Just thinking out loud, because I have heard my boss cuss the Linux Journal folks often enough when they have billed him double or run the wrong ad or etc. And we've certainly heard Evan complain about Linux Journal's "professionalism" (or lack thereof) enough times to get an opinion there. -- Eric Lee Green eric@linux-hw.com http://www.linux-hw.com/~eric "Microsoft views service as what a bull does to a cow." -- Unknown ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 21 22:34:18 1999 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:12:49 +0000 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Damian A Ivereigh CC: "Scott D. Webster" , linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Public perception of computers/software X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 146 Damian A Ivereigh wrote: > > Scott D. Webster wrote: > > > > I've been thinking about something lately. I've read a few press > > stories on Linux lately where they said something to the effect that Linux > > has "the tendency not to crash". That sounds so backwards to me. It's > > like me listing "the tendency not to murder people" as one of my good > > character traits. :-> It seems that people have grown so accustomed to > > buggy OS's that when Linux simply does what it's supposed to do, it comes > > across as something new and different. > > There was a related article on slashdot a few days ago - but I can't > find it now. In there the author described using NT5 beta 2 when it > initially came out and how unstable it was. He now continues to use it > and it is fairly stable. The same OS, now it's stable - why? Because > the user has been trained. > > Trained not to click on this, just after that - it crashes the OS! > People learn what they should avoid to stop it crashing. Its a sort of > pavlovian dog effect. I think this is what you are seeing in the press > these days - a trained populace, who learns very quickly that they > need to save their files often, or IS departments that build NT > reboots into their daily schedule. > > Damian If you are looking for a Freudian feast, check out the MSFT stock message board on Yahoo. There is also a message board for Linux on Yahoo. It's an ugly battlefield, strewn with obscenaties, threats, defamation, and more than an ample dose of FUD. The MSFT people are having a hard time dealing with falling stock prices, and it shows. -- Regards, Bradley J. Willson d.b.a. Willson Consulting Services http://www.ifixcomputers.com Pager# 206-608-5839 Seattle area, 425-267-8766 Everett area ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 23 06:00:58 1999 From: Bobnhlinux@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:15:09 EST To: twm139@its.to Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Subject: [linux-biz] Re: xbase on linux & intranet ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 147 twm139@its.to writes: > Actually if it is an XBase database it is really very simple to access it via > CGI and Perl without requiring much in the way of proprietary software. I have > used XBase on several ocassions (When a real database management system was > not an option) and it works very well. Perl has a great SQL like interface allowing > you to make simply sql queries of your XBase tables. > How is this done? I am interested in using this to convert M$ Access data, to Linux-based, web-enabled, multi-user, databases. Since Access can link to Xbase files, I can use them in between. If you can directly get to Access databases, all the better. Thanks, Bob Sparks Linux enthusiast (sounds better than loud mouthed fanatic) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 23 06:01:03 1999 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Jonathan Corbet Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:03:15 -0700 Subject: [linux-biz] Certification again X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 148 Since the certification thing has calmed down a bit, I just thought I would mention the following from today's New York Times... > Caldera is expected to announce this week that it has been selected by > several big hardware and software companies to train and certify Linux > engineers. (http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/02/biztech/articles/22data.html). It will be interesting to see if community-based certification efforts, such as the Linux Institute, get shoved aside by "big company" muscle. Here's hoping not... jon Jonathan Corbet, Eklektix, Inc. corbet@eklektix.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 23 06:01:13 1999 From: Con Zymaris To: Bobnhlinux@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:29:18 +1100 (EST) Cc: twm139@its.to, linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: xbase on linux & intranet ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 149 > twm139@its.to writes: > > Actually if it is an XBase database it is really very simple to access it > via > > CGI and Perl without requiring much in the way of proprietary software. I > have > > used XBase on several ocassions (When a real database management system was > > not an option) and it works very well. Perl has a great SQL like interface > allowing > > you to make simply sql queries of your XBase tables. > > > How is this done? I am interested in using this to convert M$ Access data, > to Linux-based, web-enabled, multi-user, databases. Since Access can link > to Xbase files, I can use them in between. If you can directly get to Access > databases, all the better. > Thanks, > Bob Sparks > Linux enthusiast (sounds better than loud mouthed fanatic) one way to do it is to setup something like Posgressql or mysql on a linux box, install their ODBC drivers on a Windoes box, point Access to the xBase files via 'attach table', and then copy the table and data to linked remote ODBC table. Haven't tried this exactly, but I've had people tell me this is the easiest wat to do it. I normally manuall build a SQL create table file, feed it into my SQL database, and then bulk-copy read in the CSV data using utils. con _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Linux/Windows Systems Administration & Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 23 06:01:32 1999 From: "Cary O'Brien" To: Bobnhlinux@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:21:15 -0500 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: xbase on linux & intranet ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 150 > > twm139@its.to writes: > > Actually if it is an XBase database it is really very simple to access it > via > > CGI and Perl without requiring much in the way of proprietary software. I > have > > used XBase on several ocassions (When a real database management system was > > not an option) and it works very well. Perl has a great SQL like interface > allowing > > you to make simply sql queries of your XBase tables. > > > How is this done? I am interested in using this to convert M$ Access data, You need to get the perl DBI (database independent) module, as wel as the DBD:dbase (oops, not sure here... check cpan... Yup DBD-Xbase) Then you should be able to access things from perl. > to Linux-based, web-enabled, multi-user, databases. Since Access can link > to Xbase files, I can use them in between. If you can directly get to Access Another approach would be to export the access database to dbf format and import into PostgreSQL using dbf2sql. You can then access the PostgreSQL database using Perl + DBI + DBD::Postgres. References: http://www.postgresql.org http://www.cpan.org http://www.cpan.org/modules/01modules.index.html Perl DBI/DBD is awsome. I just wish TCL had the same setup. -- cary ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Feb 23 06:01:41 1999 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:57:25 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: xbase on linux & intranet ??? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 151 On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 04:15:09PM -0500, Bobnhlinux@aol.com wrote: > > Actually if it is an XBase database it is really very simple to access it Mysql has a dbfload that makes it very simple to load a dbf into a SQL database - it creates the table on the fly and allows selecting fields or renaming them -- we use it to load a couple 100 meg a day. > How is this done? I am interested in using this to convert M$ Access data, > to Linux-based, web-enabled, multi-user, databases. Since Access can link If you can easily write SQL Insert statements from Access, you can use the Mysql command line utility to load them directly into the table. ODBC is a more direct connection but takes a bit of setting up the first time. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 24 20:01:00 1999 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:36:27 -0500 X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John C Cusick Subject: [linux-biz] From the annals of MS history.... X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 152 This just in from Ziff-Davis Berst Alert.... Interesting times, Indeed :-) JC ____________________________________________________________ _____Are you a Linux Kernalite? Get ZDNet Help! Channel's How do I? guide on compiling Linux kernel 2.2. Plus, you can download the kernel, get Linux tips and FAQs, visit a Linux forum hosted by Linux expert >>>>> *_Evan Lebovitch_* <<<<< and more. http://chkpt.zdnet.com/chkpt/zdna990223g/www.zdnet.com/zdhelp/howto_help/ linux/linuxhelp_1.html ____________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Feb 24 20:01:03 1999 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:56:24 -0500 X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John C Cusick Subject: [linux-biz] Meanwhile, the next day .... X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 153 __________Elsewhere on ZDNet____________________ JOIN THE LINUX FOR BUSINESS DISCUSSION http://www.zdnet.com/chkpt/adtewzd/www.zdnet.com/cc/ ZDNet marketing guy Rob Smahl isn't a Linux Kernalite himself, but he found the hot spot for those who are: the 'Linux for Business' discussion in the ZDNet Community Center. Moderated by Linux expert Evan Leibovitch, this forum is generating lots of spot-on questions and answers. JC ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 25 06:01:54 1999 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:54:10 -0500 From: "Scott D. Webster" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.99 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Linux on CNN! X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 154 All, I just saw a story on Linux on CNN at about 10:20 p.m. It had interviews w/ Linus and Bob Young. -- Scott D. Webster swebster@carroll.com Etc Services Voice: 201.385.7113 Linux, UNIX, & TCP/IP Network Consulting Pager: 800.379.2402 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 25 06:01:54 1999 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:24:15 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: "Scott D. Webster" cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux on CNN! X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 155 On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Scott D. Webster wrote: > I just saw a story on Linux on CNN at about 10:20 p.m. It had > interviews w/ Linus and Bob Young. I taped it. It was a nice intriductory piece, but in its aim for simplicity it totally blurred the distinction between Linux and Red Hat. You'd never know by seeing that piece that anyone else packages Linux for distribution except RH, a point that I'm sure will not be lost on users of Caldera or Slackware or Debian etc... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Feb 25 18:00:58 1999 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:14:56 -0800 From: Collette McNeill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux on CNN! X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 156 OBTW: Every CNN story is written up on cnn.com. -collette Scott D. Webster wrote: > All, > > I just saw a story on Linux on CNN at about 10:20 p.m. It had > interviews w/ Linus and Bob Young. > > -- > Scott D. Webster swebster@carroll.com > Etc Services Voice: 201.385.7113 > Linux, UNIX, & TCP/IP Network Consulting Pager: 800.379.2402 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 28 06:01:44 1999 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:30:21 +0000 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux User List , Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Toshiba learned a dirty trick X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 157 Everett Linux User Group II met today for the second time and it was there that a new dirty trick was exposed. One of the new attendees (I didn't catch his name) brought in a new Toshiba notebook, and explained that he found a "legal agreement" on the plastic wrap that states if you open the plastic, you accept the terms of the sale. So much for loading Linux before using the computer! They seem to have found a way around the EULA and have the consumer by the short hairs before the floppy ever reaches the drive. If there is a legal expert on the list, please consider this in light of the recent Windows Refund Day event and make suggestions as appropriate. I am inclined to boycott any manufacturer that corners the consumer in that fashion. -- Regards, Bradley J. Willson d.b.a. Willson Consulting Services http://www.ifixcomputers.com Pager# 206-608-5839 Seattle area, 425-267-8766 Everett area ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 28 22:00:58 1999 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:03:31 -0500 From: Darren Boyd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bradley J. Willson" CC: Linux User List , Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Toshiba learned a dirty trick X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 158 Where are the terms of the sale? And did the terms of the sale include, in full, the EULA? i.e. list the steps that were taken (package opened, license agreement read, ....). If all of the consumer's obligations were clearly stated *before* the plastic was opened, then it is likely to be enforeable. i.e. the consumer accepts the license agreement. However, if you need to open the plastic to read the license agreement you agreed to by opening the plastic... I doubt very much if that is enforceable. If you answer the questions above I will be able ask the advice of a lawyer. Later, Darren "Bradley J. Willson" wrote: > > Everett Linux User Group II met today for the second time and it was > there that a new dirty trick was exposed. One of the new attendees (I > didn't catch his name) brought in a new Toshiba notebook, and explained > that he found a "legal agreement" on the plastic wrap that states if you > open the plastic, you accept the terms of the sale. So much for loading > Linux before using the computer! They seem to have found a way around > the EULA and have the consumer by the short hairs before the floppy ever > reaches the drive. > > If there is a legal expert on the list, please consider this in light of > the recent Windows Refund Day event and make suggestions as appropriate. > I am inclined to boycott any manufacturer that corners the consumer in > that fashion. > > -- > Regards, > Bradley J. Willson d.b.a. Willson Consulting Services > http://www.ifixcomputers.com > Pager# 206-608-5839 Seattle area, 425-267-8766 Everett area > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Feb 28 22:01:06 1999 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:44:18 -0800 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Boyd , linux-biz@lege.com, linux-list@ssc.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Toshiba learned a dirty trick X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 159 Darren Boyd wrote: > > Where are the terms of the sale? And did the terms of the sale include, > in full, the EULA? i.e. list the steps that were taken (package opened, > license agreement read, ....). He bought it at a chain store, off the shelf. He mentioned that the "agreement" was a label on the plastic bag that sealed the computer. So the order goes; read agreement, opened the plastic bag to get to the computer, felt disgust. > If all of the consumer's obligations were clearly stated *before* the > plastic was opened, then it is likely to be enforeable. i.e. the > consumer accepts the license agreement. That would be the case, and therein lies the rub, you can't even get to the point of inserting a Linux boot floppy. In effect, Toshiba's move essentially voids the consumers choice given by the MS EULA. > However, if you need to open the plastic to read the license agreement > you agreed to by opening the plastic... I doubt very much if that is > enforceable. As noted above, it appears to be enforceable. > If you answer the questions above I will be able ask the advice of a > lawyer. I'm hoping that Steve Dickinson is reading this too, but by all means, please pose this to a lawyer. I believe a boycott would only put a small dent in their attitude, if at all. Since Toshiba was the *main* vendor mentioned in context with getting a refund...I think they took the ball and ran it in for a touchdown. Toshiba 6, Consumer 0. Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 1 00:01:04 1999 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:37:21 -0800 From: "Jeffrey B. Siegal" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Boyd CC: "Bradley J. Willson" , Linux User List , Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Toshiba learned a dirty trick X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 160 Darren Boyd wrote: > If all of the consumer's obligations were clearly stated *before* the > plastic was opened, then it is likely to be enforeable. i.e. the > consumer accepts the license agreement. No, the consumer's obligations need to be stated before making the purchase, not before opening the plastic. After the purchase it is too late, even if it is before opening the plastic. I don't believe that notations such as "purchase subject to license agreement (enclosed)" on the external package are effective either, unless it is clear that the consumer read and agreed to the license (not just had the opportunity to read and agree to, though even this is probably not the case in most retail environments) prior to the purchase. Do not accept that the EULA is effective just because it claims to be. You need to study the legal history of shrink-wrap licenses, and that overwhelmingly says they're not valid. I'm not on linux-biz, so my replies aren't being accepted there. If one of you is on that list, please repost my message (including my earlier message reproduced below). --- I am not a legal expert, but my understanding is that shrink-wrap licenses have, with extremely unusual and limited exceptions, been found to be unenforceable. That would apply to the EULA just as it would to any other shrink-wrap. Interestingly, this means that the Windows Refund Day concept, while a perfectly legitimate publicity stunt, is legally bogus because the refund seekers are basing their demands for a refund on a term from an unenforceable license! Your inclination to boycott is a step in the right direction, though an organized boycott is probably excessive. Simply don't buy computers which are bundled with something you don't want (Windows), just as you would be unlikely to buy toilet paper that came bundled with diapers if you don't have an infant. Though if you feel (as I do) that bundling Windows with computers is illegal tying, then you might lobby for government action to put a stop to it. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 1 00:01:05 1999 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:40:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott D. Webster" To: "Bradley J. Willson" cc: Linux User List , Linux Business List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Toshiba learned a dirty trick X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 161 On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Bradley J. Willson wrote: > Everett Linux User Group II met today for the second time and it was > there that a new dirty trick was exposed. One of the new attendees (I > didn't catch his name) brought in a new Toshiba notebook, and explained > that he found a "legal agreement" on the plastic wrap that states if you > open the plastic, you accept the terms of the sale. So much for loading > Linux before using the computer! They seem to have found a way around > the EULA and have the consumer by the short hairs before the floppy ever > reaches the drive. Additionaly, IIRC, Toshiba is refusing to release specs on their IRDA implementation to the Linux IRDA driver developers. Yet another reason to avoid Toshiba. -- Scott D. Webster swebster@carroll.com Etc Services Voice: 201.385.7113 Linux, UNIX, & TCP/IP Network Consulting Pager: 800.379.2402 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 1 06:01:11 1999 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:04:28 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Linux Business Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Too many trade shows? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 162 Given the nature of Linux, many of its users are students, experimentors, and small VARs and end-user businesses. Most of its vendors, by conventional computer standards (IBM, Apple, MS, Symantec, Oracle) are pretty small stuff. Having said that, can the Linux community support as many trade shows and conferences as it has attracted. Within the next few months we have quite a few shows, either dedicated to Linux or with significant Linux presence: March: LinuxWorld Expo, San Jose March: CeBIT, Hanover April: Linux Global Summit at COMDEX/Spring, Chicago May: Linux Expo, Raleigh June: Linux Expo, Paris July: COMDEX Canada, Toronto August: LinuxWorldExpo, San Jose November: COMDEX/Fall, Las Vegas And I'm sure that's not a complete list. How does a vendor choose where to have a presence? How does an end-user or VAR decide what to attend? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 1 06:01:28 1999 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:49:15 -0600 (EST) From: Ray Atnip To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Too many trade shows? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 163 An end-user will generally go to the one's nearby or can afford. A VAR will attend based on business sense. These are a form of advertising and if you want customers to see your product, you get booth space and show 'em. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ray Atnip On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Given the nature of Linux, many of its users are students, experimentors, > and small VARs and end-user businesses. Most of its vendors, by > conventional computer standards (IBM, Apple, MS, Symantec, Oracle) are > pretty small stuff. > > Having said that, can the Linux community support as many trade shows and > conferences as it has attracted. Within the next few months we have quite > a few shows, either dedicated to Linux or with significant Linux presence: > > March: LinuxWorld Expo, San Jose > March: CeBIT, Hanover > April: Linux Global Summit at COMDEX/Spring, Chicago > May: Linux Expo, Raleigh > June: Linux Expo, Paris > July: COMDEX Canada, Toronto > August: LinuxWorldExpo, San Jose > November: COMDEX/Fall, Las Vegas > > And I'm sure that's not a complete list. > > How does a vendor choose where to have a presence? How does an end-user or > VAR decide what to attend? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > > From popmail Mon Mar 1 06:02:07 1999 From: Con Zymaris To: evan@telly.org (Evan Leibovitch) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:12:36 +1100 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Too many trade shows? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 164 > > Given the nature of Linux, many of its users are students, experimentors, > and small VARs and end-user businesses. Most of its vendors, by > conventional computer standards (IBM, Apple, MS, Symantec, Oracle) are > pretty small stuff. > > Having said that, can the Linux community support as many trade shows and > conferences as it has attracted. Within the next few months we have quite > a few shows, either dedicated to Linux or with significant Linux presence: > > March: LinuxWorld Expo, San Jose > March: CeBIT, Hanover > April: Linux Global Summit at COMDEX/Spring, Chicago > May: Linux Expo, Raleigh > June: Linux Expo, Paris > July: COMDEX Canada, Toronto > August: LinuxWorldExpo, San Jose > November: COMDEX/Fall, Las Vegas > > And I'm sure that's not a complete list. > > How does a vendor choose where to have a presence? How does an end-user or > VAR decide what to attend? Applying some of the tenets of basic evolutionary biology, it is likely that there will be a flourishing of various conferences initially, but this will stabilise and only a smattering of 'life-forms' will survive in the long run. I guess the same happens with free software projects too. _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Linux/Windows Systems Administration & Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 1 06:02:20 1999 From: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) To: Evan Leibovitch Cc: Linux Business Mailing List Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 02:22:36 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Too many trade shows? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 165 On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:04:28 -0500 (EST), Evan Leibovitch wrote: >Having said that, can the Linux community support as many trade shows and >conferences as it has attracted. Within the next few months we have quite >a few shows, either dedicated to Linux or with significant Linux presence: > >March: LinuxWorld Expo, San Jose .. >November: COMDEX/Fall, Las Vegas I have heard that the one in NYC from www.thebazaar.org was moved to July. This is significant since although there have been many Linux shows, NONE of them have been in NY or anywhere in the northeast! -- Ed Weinberg, Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider edw@detel.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 1 12:01:42 1999 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:36:11 -0800 From: "Jeffrey B. Siegal" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Silverman CC: Darren Boyd , "Bradley J. Willson" , Linux User List , Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: [SLL] Re: Toshiba learned a dirty trick X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 166 Jeff Silverman wrote: > The EULA is a key part of the agreement to buy a computer, because without > the OS, the computer is just some very expensive beach sand, right? You > wouldn't buy a car without software in the carburator, at least not anymore. I'm not sure what your point is, but you may not realize that you can buy software without a license. As an example, traditionally video games (for video game consoles) did not have any kind of license; they were just sold. Similarly, books and CD's are software that is sold without any license agreement. If you do not agree to a license prior to purchase, than you have simply purchased a copy of the software, the way you purchase a book. You can't make more copies of the software, because the copyright law says that only the copyright owner can make copies. But you can use your copy of the software, because you own it. The key question is whether you agree to the terms of the license prior to the purchase, not after the purchase but before using the computer (or software). At that point it is too late to change the terms of the sale. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 1 12:01:45 1999 From: "Chris Tyler" Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 06:21:48 +0000 X-Face: *,j)>7_m)(4b*#BqizA=&l|1:3Hv?`;M@b(Vxd\)z\,ptx5nSoGeAqsNMczD,3HSQ0&j'K0rsz(S_?Q?Um.xU@T]*iuYzE0C![[A[03Su&`gX#AZ$EQOJ=naqi^auv&F[WDYVu@]A%Pv X-URL: http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 24feb96 Caldera) To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Too many trade shows? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 167 On Feb 28, 7:04pm, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Subject: [linux-biz] Too many trade shows? > > How does a vendor choose where to have a presence? How does an end-user or > VAR decide what to attend? At this point in time, I think that there is sufficient differentiation between the shows: > March: LinuxWorld Expo, San Jose Good place for new vendors to jump on the commercial Linux bandwagon. Should be a lot of pro-Linux press. Could also be good for hobnobbing with the bandwagoneers (companies that have fairly recently Got Linux). > March: CeBIT, Hanover Comdex for Europe. > April: Linux Global Summit at COMDEX/Spring, Chicago Adjunct to Comdex/Spring. If the Comdex crowd is who you want to reach, this could be a good thing, although it's a small[er] COMDEX. I anticipate the Linux part of this show as something little, I may be wrong. > May: Linux Expo, Raleigh The grassroots show. If you need to talk to kernel talent, I would guess this is the one to be at. > June: Linux Expo, Paris (Hadn't heard of this one.) > July: COMDEX Canada, Toronto Canada, Commercial. If you need to do a Canadian show and can only afford one, this is the one to hit. > August: LinuxWorldExpo, San Jose (Hadn't heard of this one either.) > November: COMDEX/Fall, Las Vegas The granddaddy of them all. Go to make a big announcement (gotta *really* big, if you want to be heard over the noise) or if you need to be at The Big Comdex. In addition, there are a *lot* of people wanting to learn about Linux, so it you will have plenty of atendees to go around, even if you wear out the exhibitors and conference speakers :-) Will all these shows (including Linux sideshows to the big shows) survive? It depends on how wide a reach Linux has. NT appears at this many shows. If Linux serves a market as wide as NT-- and I believe that it serves a wider market (think embedded through Beowulf)-- then it's quite likely that the Linux show market is not saturated. -- Chris Tyler Global Proximity Corporation http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ Internet and Computer Consulting (519) 469-3439 / fax (519) 469-8653 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 2 20:00:54 1999 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:08:05 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: linux biz mailing list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] web based email server for linux? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 168 First, I'd happily take recommendations on a better list to post this to. =) That said, the question is: a friend of mine is going to set up one of those free web mail sites and is looking to do it on Linux if possible. Searching for linux and webmail just gets me lots of hits for places that have their own private webmail, or other people's free web mail services. I also checked linas's page and didn't see antyhing. The stupid part is, at one time I kknew the names of a couple places but can't seem to fnid them or remember them anymore. =( A system which is self containted would be great, but a system which depends on an external imap backend is ok too since I guess I could just build cyrus imapd to handle that part of things. And, needless to say, he'll want to customize the look and feel of it totally. Open/closed source are both contenders, but it has to run on the redhat box he just built. =-) Thanks very much, jim -- "[T]hey said something to the effect that Linux has 'the tendency not to crash.' ... It's like me listing 'the tendency not to murder people' as one of my good character traits. :-> It seems that people have grown so accustomed to buggy OS's that when Linux simply does what it's supposed to do, it comes across as something new and different." Scott Webster on linux-biz 20 Feb 1999 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 2 22:01:43 1999 From: Con Zymaris To: jhebert@compu-aid.com (Jim Hebert) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:15:22 +1100 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: web based email server for linux? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 169 > First, I'd happily take recommendations on a better list to post this to. > =) > > That said, the question is: a friend of mine is going to set up one of > those free web mail sites and is looking to do it on Linux if possible. > Searching for linux and webmail just gets me lots of hits for places that > have their own private webmail, or other people's free web mail services. > > I also checked linas's page and didn't see antyhing. > > The stupid part is, at one time I kknew the names of a couple places but > can't seem to fnid them or remember them anymore. =( > > A system which is self containted would be great, but a system which > depends on an external imap backend is ok too since I guess I could just > build cyrus imapd to handle that part of things. > > And, needless to say, he'll want to customize the look and feel of it > totally. Open/closed source are both contenders, but it has to run on the > redhat box he just built. =-) Try: IMP http://www.horde.org/ (PHP based IMAP front end) and OCSMail http://demo.obsidian.co.za/ (Perl based IMAP front end) Both are open source freeware, and are the core of an interesting array of web-based office apps. con _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Linux/Windows Systems Administration & Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 2 22:01:43 1999 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:53:53 -0500 From: David Berlind To: linux biz mailing list MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [linux-biz] Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 Wanted: An objectively written, non-flamelike 250-400 word rebuttal from someone in the Linux community to Jesse Berst's most recent column. It can be found at: http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3144.html I will post the rebuttal as a Linux FUD-Buster in ZDNet's new area devoted to Linux. It can be found at http://linux.zdnet.com. Any volunteers? Thanks David Berlind Editorial Director, Business Computing ZDNet ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 2 23:37:46 1999 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:45:19 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux biz mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: web based email server for linux? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 171 Check at http://www.freshmeat.net - there are at least a dozen linux web-mail packages of different varieties. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 2 23:37:51 1999 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:51:16 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux biz mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 172 On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:53:53PM -0500, David Berlind wrote: > An objectively written, non-flamelike 250-400 word rebuttal from someone in > the Linux community to Jesse Berst's most recent column. It can be found what flames, who us ?? .... > I will post the rebuttal as a Linux FUD-Buster in ZDNet's new area devoted > to Linux. It can be found at http://linux.zdnet.com. > > Any volunteers? Sure I'll take a crack, will email to you directly. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 2 23:38:10 1999 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:37:50 -0500 From: David Berlind To: rfi from Rich Roth Cc: linux biz mailing list MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 173 OK, thanks Rich. Looking forward to it. Would be good if we structured this based on the points he made that you consider to be debatable, and then to offer your counterpoint. That way, it looks a lot like "here's the specific FUDDY statement, here's Rich's specific response to the FUDDY statement." Try to back up any argument you make with factual details (makes your argument look as sane and bulletproof as possible). Also, please provide a 50 word 3rd person bio on who you are and what your involvement with Linux is. Thanks. db ------------ Previous Message from rfi from Rich Roth on 03/02/99 03:51:16 PM ---------- To: linux biz mailing list cc: Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:53:53PM -0500, David Berlind wrote: > An objectively written, non-flamelike 250-400 word rebuttal from someone in > the Linux community to Jesse Berst's most recent column. It can be found what flames, who us ?? .... > I will post the rebuttal as a Linux FUD-Buster in ZDNet's new area devoted > to Linux. It can be found at http://linux.zdnet.com. > > Any volunteers? Sure I'll take a crack, will email to you directly. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 3 06:01:22 1999 From: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) To: David Berlind Cc: linux biz mailing list Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 00:07:14 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 174 On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:53:53 -0500, David Berlind wrote: >Wanted: > >An objectively written, non-flamelike 250-400 word rebuttal from someone in >the Linux community to Jesse Berst's most recent column. It can be found >at: > >http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3144.html The issue here is that since MS is in trouble with DOJ, MS has given ZD and some other publishers permission to do articles favorable to Linux. As soon as the trial is over look for the media to be less friendly to Linux again. Hopefully linux will get enough of a boost over the next few months and MS will find it difficult to get the toothpaste back in the tube! -- Ed Weinberg, Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider edw@detel.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 3 06:01:24 1999 From: Con Zymaris To: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:44:09 +1100 (EST) Cc: David_Berlind@zd.com, linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 175 > On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:53:53 -0500, David Berlind > wrote: > > >Wanted: > > > >An objectively written, non-flamelike 250-400 word rebuttal from someone in > >the Linux community to Jesse Berst's most recent column. It can be found > >at: > > > >http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3144.html > > The issue here is that since MS is in trouble with DOJ, MS has given > ZD and some other publishers permission to do articles favorable to > Linux. As soon as the trial is over look for the media to be less > friendly to Linux again. > > Hopefully linux will get enough of a boost over the next few months > and MS will find it difficult to get the toothpaste back in the tube! > To be honest, I think it's even simpler than that. _Any_ Linux news draws substantial numbers of hits to web-pages, wether directed through Slashdot or the guys at LinuxToday and LWN. ZD et. al. are likely finding that their banner-ad click-counts are getting sizeable hit increases on pages which mention Linux, and since banner ads are revenue, this is more money. With time (say 6 months) this will tone down, but not before explosive interest in Linux has driven it so fully into the mainstream, that lots of 'special coverage' isn't needed. Mission accomplished. con _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Linux/Windows Systems Administration & Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 3 06:01:41 1999 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:29:48 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: Con Zymaris cc: Ed Weinberg , David_Berlind@zd.com, linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 176 Leading us to a perverse corrolary: click-through on those banner ads if you wanna help with world domination. *grin* jim On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Con Zymaris wrote: > > On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:53:53 -0500, David Berlind > > wrote: > > > > >Wanted: > > > > > >An objectively written, non-flamelike 250-400 word rebuttal from someone in > > >the Linux community to Jesse Berst's most recent column. It can be found > > >at: > > > > > >http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3144.html > > > > The issue here is that since MS is in trouble with DOJ, MS has given > > ZD and some other publishers permission to do articles favorable to > > Linux. As soon as the trial is over look for the media to be less > > friendly to Linux again. > > > > Hopefully linux will get enough of a boost over the next few months > > and MS will find it difficult to get the toothpaste back in the tube! > > > > To be honest, I think it's even simpler than that. _Any_ Linux news draws > substantial numbers of hits to web-pages, wether directed through > Slashdot or the guys at LinuxToday and LWN. ZD et. al. are likely finding > that their banner-ad click-counts are getting sizeable hit increases on > pages which mention Linux, and since banner ads are revenue, this is more > money. With time (say 6 months) this will tone down, but not before > explosive interest in Linux has driven it so fully into the > mainstream, that lots of 'special coverage' isn't needed. Mission accomplished. > > > con > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. > Unix/Linux/Windows Systems Administration & Rapid Application Development > +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > -- "[T]hey said something to the effect that Linux has 'the tendency not to crash.' ... It's like me listing 'the tendency not to murder people' as one of my good character traits. :-> It seems that people have grown so accustomed to buggy OS's that when Linux simply does what it's supposed to do, it comes across as something new and different." Scott Webster on linux-biz 20 Feb 1999 From popmail Wed Mar 3 06:01:53 1999 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:56:47 -0800 From: Collette McNeill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux biz mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Im a conspiracy buff too. X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 177 I have often thought that Jesse Berst/ZD was in the business of marketing windows... What an astute observation! Ed Weinberg wrote: > On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:53:53 -0500, David Berlind > wrote: > > >Wanted: > > > >An objectively written, non-flamelike 250-400 word rebuttal from someone in > >the Linux community to Jesse Berst's most recent column. It can be found > >at: > > > >http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3144.html > > The issue here is that since MS is in trouble with DOJ, MS has given > ZD and some other publishers permission to do articles favorable to > Linux. As soon as the trial is over look for the media to be less > friendly to Linux again. > > Hopefully linux will get enough of a boost over the next few months > and MS will find it difficult to get the toothpaste back in the tube! > > -- Ed Weinberg, > Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider > edw@detel.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 3 18:02:24 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:00:36 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux biz mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 178 On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:07:14AM +0000, Ed Weinberg wrote: > The issue here is that since MS is in trouble with DOJ, MS has given > ZD and some other publishers permission to do articles favorable to > Linux. As soon as the trial is over look for the media to be less > friendly to Linux again. No, the process of MS taking it's place in history is starting, just like it happened to IBM -- both will still be with us for a long time, but not as the only choice like they were at one time. > Hopefully linux will get enough of a boost over the next few months > and MS will find it difficult to get the toothpaste back in the tube! Can't say as I give the press that much credibility that 'it' is organized enuf for that anyone to control 'it'. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 3 18:03:10 1999 Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 09:51:36 -0500 From: David Berlind To: Con Zymaris Cc: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg), linux-biz@lege.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 179 As Leif , Bradley Wilson, and others in this group will attest to, having a prominent rebuttal was a solution that was proposed response to a complaint that our only other feedback mechanism, Talkback, wasn't adequate enough for voicing the Linux community's response. Yes, we're obviously interested in click-thru, but I'm most interested in serving the information needs of a range of Linux users. This idea did not come as a result of trying to figure out ways to improve the click thru. It was a direct result of a discussion with members of the Linux community... some of whom are on this list. Your feedback can only help us to make the site even better. Thanks. db ------------ Previous Message from Con Zymaris on 03/02/99 07:44:09 PM ---------- To: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) cc: David Berlind, linux-biz@lege.com Subject: Re: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst > On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:53:53 -0500, David Berlind > wrote: > > >Wanted: > > > >An objectively written, non-flamelike 250-400 word rebuttal from someone in > >the Linux community to Jesse Berst's most recent column. It can be found > >at: > > > >http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3144.html > > The issue here is that since MS is in trouble with DOJ, MS has given > ZD and some other publishers permission to do articles favorable to > Linux. As soon as the trial is over look for the media to be less > friendly to Linux again. > > Hopefully linux will get enough of a boost over the next few months > and MS will find it difficult to get the toothpaste back in the tube! > To be honest, I think it's even simpler than that. _Any_ Linux news draws substantial numbers of hits to web-pages, wether directed through Slashdot or the guys at LinuxToday and LWN. ZD et. al. are likely finding that their banner-ad click-counts are getting sizeable hit increases on pages which mention Linux, and since banner ads are revenue, this is more money. With time (say 6 months) this will tone down, but not before explosive interest in Linux has driven it so fully into the mainstream, that lots of 'special coverage' isn't needed. Mission accomplished. con _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Linux/Windows Systems Administration & Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 3 18:03:12 1999 Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:05:17 -0500 From: David Berlind To: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) Cc: linux biz mailing list MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 180 We're diving into the past to look at some of the reasons that OS/2 failed in the market. It was definitely a better OS than Windows. Just about everyone on this list could probably write a book on the issue. But for us, and the industry, there are lessons to be learned. Lessons that could be applied to Linux. Although it isn't our place to make Linux (or any other product) successful or unsuccesful, we're working on some ideas that I think will probably improve its chances of success.... things that were sorely overlooked in the days of OS/2. Ultimately, our goal is objective coverage. While I cannot mandate a company-wide approach to Linux coverage (just not my jurisdiction), I can do what I can to balance the coverage out. Thus, these rebuttals. db ------------ Previous Message from edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) on 03/02/99 07:07:14 PM ---------- To: David Berlind cc: linux biz mailing list Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:53:53 -0500, David Berlind wrote: >Wanted: > >An objectively written, non-flamelike 250-400 word rebuttal from someone in >the Linux community to Jesse Berst's most recent column. It can be found >at: > >http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_3144.html The issue here is that since MS is in trouble with DOJ, MS has given ZD and some other publishers permission to do articles favorable to Linux. As soon as the trial is over look for the media to be less friendly to Linux again. Hopefully linux will get enough of a boost over the next few months and MS will find it difficult to get the toothpaste back in the tube! -- Ed Weinberg, Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider edw@detel.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 3 20:01:29 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:11:31 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux biz mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 181 On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:05:17AM -0500, David Berlind wrote: > other product) successful or unsuccesful, we're working on some ideas that > I think will probably improve its chances of success.... things that were > sorely overlooked in the days of OS/2. My experience with OS/2 pointed at two killer problems: 1) Too big of a foot print: in the days of 100 meg disks, 30 meg was a serious commitment and fatal. 2) An impossible compatabilty requirement: There was no way IBM could ever mean the compatiblity goals they defined for OS/2. Then in marketing, well, let me just say they tried real hard, but even IBM is budget limited. In comparing to Linux: 1) Linux is a commitment - there are some options with UMSDOS and the direct cdrom or single disk boot Linux systems. This is now much less of an issue, since a 1 gig drive costs less that $100. 2) Linux has no historical compatibility issues. Not quite true, relative to other UNIXs, but this is not a major issue because Linux developers are very keen on making sure everything works everywhere. The compatibility issue that is serious for Linux, to be accept as a desktop option, is making sure that there is cross-application interoperatbility (wow, a mouthful). That means that Linux aps that can read/write the data files that Window's aps create. SO ... I guess I'm saying there aren't a lot of lessons to be learned from OS/2 ... ?? -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Wed Mar 3 22:00:58 1999 Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:46:19 -0800 From: "Bradley J. Willson" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wendell Holmes CC: Linux User List , Linux Business List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: [SLL] Toshiba learned a dirty trick X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 182 Wendell Holmes wrote: > > According to Cem Kaner, noted software testing expert and author of "Bad > Software", there are many legal precedents that hold that a buyer always has > the right to examine goods being purchased before declaring them to be in > good deliverable form and completing the final step of the implied contract. > If memory serves there's a paper on this topic at his web site, kaner.com, > which also encourages buyers of defective software to insist on a refund. > The logical conclusion would be that even after using Windows you could > claim that it didn't meet the claims on which you based your purchase and > that you had been denied the opportunity to inspect the goods. Kaner, a > lawyer, claims to have gotten clients refunds based on faulty programs they > had purchased. I hope this is the premise that the engineer in CA is using with his class action. It sounds reasonable, hopefully it will be effective. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bradley J. Willson > To: Linux User List ; Linux Business List > > Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 8:18 PM > Subject: [SLL] Toshiba learned a dirty trick > > >Everett Linux User Group II met today for the second time and it was > >there that a new dirty trick was exposed. One of the new attendees (I > >didn't catch his name) brought in a new Toshiba notebook, and explained > >that he found a "legal agreement" on the plastic wrap that states if you > >open the plastic, you accept the terms of the sale. So much for loading > >Linux before using the computer! They seem to have found a way around > >the EULA and have the consumer by the short hairs before the floppy ever > >reaches the drive. > > > >If there is a legal expert on the list, please consider this in light of > >the recent Windows Refund Day event and make suggestions as appropriate. > >I am inclined to boycott any manufacturer that corners the consumer in > >that fashion. -- Regards, Bradley J. Willson d.b.a. Willson Consulting Services http://www.ifixcomputers.com Pager# 206-608-5839 Seattle area, 425-267-8766 Everett area ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 00:01:00 1999 Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 16:36:43 -0500 From: David Berlind To: rfi from Rich Roth Cc: linux biz mailing list MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 183 My understanding is that getting information regarding OS/2 support from vendors that claimed to support it was difficult if not impossible. This could not have helped OS/2. Now, if you go to the web sites of vendors are claiming to have invested in Linux (HP and Intel for example), it's slim pickins'. Now, pick up the phone and call their general information numbers and ask to speak to someone about Linux. The results are worse. That can't be good for Linux. db ------------ Previous Message from rfi from Rich Roth on 03/03/99 01:11:31 PM ---------- To: linux biz mailing list cc: Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:05:17AM -0500, David Berlind wrote: > other product) successful or unsuccesful, we're working on some ideas that > I think will probably improve its chances of success.... things that were > sorely overlooked in the days of OS/2. My experience with OS/2 pointed at two killer problems: 1) Too big of a foot print: in the days of 100 meg disks, 30 meg was a serious commitment and fatal. 2) An impossible compatabilty requirement: There was no way IBM could ever mean the compatiblity goals they defined for OS/2. Then in marketing, well, let me just say they tried real hard, but even IBM is budget limited. In comparing to Linux: 1) Linux is a commitment - there are some options with UMSDOS and the direct cdrom or single disk boot Linux systems. This is now much less of an issue, since a 1 gig drive costs less that $100. 2) Linux has no historical compatibility issues. Not quite true, relative to other UNIXs, but this is not a major issue because Linux developers are very keen on making sure everything works everywhere. The compatibility issue that is serious for Linux, to be accept as a desktop option, is making sure that there is cross-application interoperatbility (wow, a mouthful). That means that Linux aps that can read/write the data files that Window's aps create. SO ... I guess I'm saying there aren't a lot of lessons to be learned from OS/2 ... ?? -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 00:01:04 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:09:15 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux biz mailing list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 184 On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 04:36:43PM -0500, David Berlind wrote: > My understanding is that getting information regarding OS/2 support from > vendors that claimed to support it was difficult if not impossible. This > could not have helped OS/2. Now, if you go to the web sites of vendors Having been one of those vendors, and at the time, in touch with many others, I have to put this down to those who 'signed on the bandwagon' but weren't serious -- so they avoided and back peddled when pushed. Furthermore, in reviewing it, this was a case where IBM was so intent on getting buyin from the 'big names' that they did not support many of the smaller vendors who were serious -- which is why I said this before: >> Then in marketing, well, let me just say they tried real hard, but even IBM >> is budget limited. > are claiming to have invested in Linux (HP and Intel for example), it's > slim pickins'. Now, pick up the phone and call their general information > numbers and ask to speak to someone about Linux. The results are worse. > That can't be good for Linux. And if the same thing is going on, then I agree -- it's up to those serious about Linux to not let the 'big names' get away with such token support, and to provide real alternatives. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 06:01:02 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:28:34 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Lee Green To: Evan Leibovitch cc: Linux Business Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Too many trade shows? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 185 On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Having said that, can the Linux community support as many trade shows and > conferences as it has attracted. Within the next few months we have quite That is a real concern. That is one reason why we will not be at the LinuxWorld Expo in the fall... having a skeleton crew both here and there is a big stress on all of us. -- Eric Lee Green eric@linux-hw.com http://www.linux-hw.com/~eric "People have grown used to thinking of computers as unreliable, and it doesn't have to be that way." -- Linus ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 06:01:07 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:44:08 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Lee Green To: Collette McNeill cc: linux biz mailing list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Im a conspiracy buff too. X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 186 On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Collette McNeill wrote: > I have often thought that Jesse Berst/ZD was in the business of marketing > windows... > What an astute observation! > > The issue here is that since MS is in trouble with DOJ, MS has given > > ZD and some other publishers permission to do articles favorable to Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately ascribed to incompetence. Berst is not a data processing person. He has never managed hundreds of Windows systems (typical support call: "I can't print, it says my disk is full!" "Well, delete some files off your hard drive then." "How do I do that?" "AGH!"). He has never had to cope with Windows crashing during the middle of mission-critical operations. In short, he has little handle on the things that data processing people REALLY care about -- maintainability, stability, remote administration, and the ability to lock it down so that the lose^H^H^H^Huser can't toss his \Windows folder into the trash can and then click "empty trash" because his disk is full and he doesn't think he needs anything in that folder. I went to Linux rather than to NT when I was chief technical staffer at Executive Consultants because I'd just been screwed over by SCO, and had no intention of bending over for yet another proprietary operating system company. In short, CONTROL. That's what data processing people want. Right now there is a lot of helpless-feeling data processing people out there, people who feel that they're at the mercy of their operating system vendor with no recourse if their operating system vendor wants to screw them over. That's the proper market for Linux -- not casual users like Jesse Berst who think that knowing how to press CTRL-ALT-DEL is all the qualifications they need for pontificating about what data processing people should use. (And spare me about how many years Berst has been in the industry, when it comes to modern OS technology, he's a casual user -- period). -- Eric Lee Green eric@linux-hw.com http://www.linux-hw.com/~eric "Microsoft will compete ... by adding features" -- Ed Muth, Microsoft ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 06:01:09 1999 From: "Chris Tyler" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:29:40 +0000 X-Face: *,j)>7_m)(4b*#BqizA=&l|1:3Hv?`;M@b(Vxd\)z\,ptx5nSoGeAqsNMczD,3HSQ0&j'K0rsz(S_?Q?Um.xU@T]*iuYzE0C![[A[03Su&`gX#AZ$EQOJ=naqi^auv&F[WDYVu@]A%Pv X-URL: http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 24feb96 Caldera) To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 187 On Mar 3, 4:36pm, David Berlind wrote: > Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst > My understanding is that getting information regarding OS/2 support from > vendors that claimed to support it was difficult if not impossible. This > could not have helped OS/2. Now, if you go to the web sites of vendors > are claiming to have invested in Linux (HP and Intel for example), it's > slim pickins'. Now, pick up the phone and call their general information > numbers and ask to speak to someone about Linux. The results are worse. > That can't be good for Linux. I agree-- Linux information can be downright hard to find. But that's starting to change; for example, many companies have developed Linux home pages or mini-sites to bring together their Linux products and announcements: IBM www.ibm.com/linux Corel linux.corel.com Informix www.informix.com/informix/products/linux/ Oracle platforms.oracle.com/lin Compaq www.unix.digital.com/linux We need to make sure that Linux doesn't become 'the next OS/2'... but I think that we're already well past OS/2's apogee. -- Chris Tyler Global Proximity Corporation http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ Internet and Computer Consulting (519) 469-3439 / fax (519) 469-8653 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 06:01:27 1999 From: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 01:26:22 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 188 On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:00:36 -0500, rfi from Rich Roth wrote: >On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:07:14AM +0000, Ed Weinberg wrote: > >> The issue here is that since MS is in trouble with DOJ, MS has given >> ZD and some other publishers permission to do articles favorable to >> Linux. As soon as the trial is over look for the media to be less >> friendly to Linux again. > >No, the process of MS taking it's place in history is starting, just like it >happened to IBM -- both will still be with us for a long time, but not as >the only choice like they were at one time. >Can't say as I give the press that much credibility that 'it' is organized >enuf for that anyone to control 'it'. When you are their biggest advertiser you have some control. All you need is the control of ZD since it has a magazine for each vertical computer market and you control most of it. I get PC Mag, PC Week, Inter@ctive, and at least one more! But to add to my previous editorial... In this week Inter@ctive (I cannot find the article online) one editorial talks about how IBM spent X years being fought by DOJ. DOJ stopped shortly after IBM released the first PC...Which contained a non-IBM operating system made by a small company....Microsoft! He also points out the big problem that MS faces as far as linux is concerned. MS CANNOT buy linux or put the company who created it out of business! -- Ed Weinberg, Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider edw@detel.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 06:01:31 1999 Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 17:46:39 -0800 From: Collette McNeill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 189 linuxcare.com promises to have *the* best linux knowlegebase online, and there are various levels of support contracts available for purchase. I learned at Linuxworld that Suse linux is going to farm out lots of support work to them. -collette Chris Tyler wrote: > On Mar 3, 4:36pm, David Berlind wrote: > > Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst > > My understanding is that getting information regarding OS/2 support from > > vendors that claimed to support it was difficult if not impossible. This > > could not have helped OS/2. Now, if you go to the web sites of vendors > > are claiming to have invested in Linux (HP and Intel for example), it's > > slim pickins'. Now, pick up the phone and call their general information > > numbers and ask to speak to someone about Linux. The results are worse. > > That can't be good for Linux. > > I agree-- Linux information can be downright hard to find. > > But that's starting to change; for example, many companies have developed Linux > home pages or mini-sites to bring together their Linux products and > announcements: > > IBM www.ibm.com/linux > Corel linux.corel.com > Informix www.informix.com/informix/products/linux/ > Oracle platforms.oracle.com/lin > Compaq www.unix.digital.com/linux > > We need to make sure that Linux doesn't become 'the next OS/2'... but I think > that we're already well past OS/2's apogee. > > -- > Chris Tyler > Global Proximity Corporation http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ > Internet and Computer Consulting (519) 469-3439 / fax (519) 469-8653 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 06:01:34 1999 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:54:36 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 190 On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 01:26:22AM +0000, Ed Weinberg wrote: > >No, the process of MS taking it's place in history is starting, just like it > >happened to IBM -- both will still be with us for a long time, but not as > >the only choice like they were at one time. > > >Can't say as I give the press that much credibility that 'it' is organized > >enuf for that anyone to control 'it'. > > When you are their biggest advertiser you have some control. All you > need is the control of ZD since it has a magazine for each vertical > computer market and you control most of it. I get PC Mag, PC Week, > Inter@ctive, and at least one more! And that is the root of the control, for all excuses that editorial groups make. > But to add to my previous editorial... > In this week Inter@ctive (I cannot find the article online) one > editorial talks about how IBM spent X years being fought by DOJ. DOJ > stopped shortly after IBM released the first PC...Which contained a > non-IBM operating system made by a small company....Microsoft! This was never really an issue, IBM had Justice tied in knots -- there was even a division of Sperry (I think) dedicated to indexes the documents for the law suite. > He also points out the big problem that MS faces as far as linux is > concerned. MS CANNOT buy linux or put the company who created it out > of business! Don't count Bill out yet, he'll think of something, or Paul Allen will >g< -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 06:01:36 1999 From: Con Zymaris To: David_Berlind@zd.com (David Berlind) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:09:47 +1100 (EST) Cc: rfi@on-the-net.com, linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 191 > My understanding is that getting information regarding OS/2 support from > vendors that claimed to support it was difficult if not impossible. This > could not have helped OS/2. Now, if you go to the web sites of vendors > are claiming to have invested in Linux (HP and Intel for example), it's > slim pickins'. Now, pick up the phone and call their general information > numbers and ask to speak to someone about Linux. The results are worse. > That can't be good for Linux. We're still in the foetal-stage of Linux's growth in this area. Let's look at it again in 12 months, when Linux has permeated beyond the tech-room back-office boys to the whole organisation at places like HP, Dell and Compaq. The big difference is the thinking that organisations can invest time and effort into Linux with confidence. Linux has acquired the sheen of Herculean indestructability which OS/2 never had. Push IBM enough, and they will be prepared to kill the OS/2 baby. Pretty much everyone in IT knew this. OS/2 was, from the start, on an evolutionary dead-end path. What's more, why _should_ SGI, Compaq and HP help push IBM's OS/2? At least with Linux, the major vendors know their competitors are not going to gain a strategic advantage if they support it. Also, IBM has a huge amount to gain by Linux slowly eating away at Microsoft's hegemony. con _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Linux/Windows Systems Administration & Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 06:02:04 1999 Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:24:29 -0800 From: Collette McNeill X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Lee Green CC: Linux Business Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Too many trade shows? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 192 Hi Eric, Sorry to nose in your business, but if the Linuxworld expo in NY is as small as the one here (SJ), you can probably get away with hiring a "booth babe" assistant just for the event--which would take considerable stress off your salesperson while leaving more folks at home. It stinks to be stuck with all these shows, but if they're how people learn about products and services in the Linux community, you would be ill-advised to stay home. I bet your competition will be there! You may have a better product, but if you don't sell it... Good luck to you, Collette McNeill McNeill/Lynner WebWorks PS. I wore your co's t-shirt from the SJ show today. I really dig the quote printed on the back. Eric Lee Green wrote: > On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Having said that, can the Linux community support as many trade shows and > > conferences as it has attracted. Within the next few months we have quite > > That is a real concern. That is one reason why we will not be at the > LinuxWorld Expo in the fall... having a skeleton crew both here and there > is a big stress on all of us. > -- > Eric Lee Green eric@linux-hw.com http://www.linux-hw.com/~eric > "People have grown used to thinking of computers as unreliable, and it > doesn't have to be that way." -- Linus > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 18:14:34 1999 From: Christophe.Pythoud@ling.unil.ch (Christophe Pythoud) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:18:49 +0000 ( ) To: David_Berlind@zd.com Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3-961005-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 193 David Berlind wrote: > We're diving into the past to look at some of the reasons that OS/2 > failed in the market. It was definitely a better OS than Windows. > Just about everyone on this list could probably write a book on the > issue. Well, don't look to far: the main reason for the faillure of OS/2 is... IBM. IMNSHO everything that they could do wrong has been done wrong : - pulling the carpet under VAR feet at least two times - ludicrous advertisement campaigns (many people never understood what that Warp thing meant) - dropping end-user support for concentrating on corporations (biggest mistake of all) - no coordination with the IBM hardware department where they insisted on bundling Windows with their machines - no shell space devoted to OS/2 and compatible applications in stores - and so on... It really was painful to be an OS/2 fan at that time :-( (at least in Europe, I don't know what it was like in the US). > But for us, and the industry, there are lessons to be learned. > Lessons that could be applied to Linux. Although it isn't our place > to make Linux (or any other product) successful or unsuccesful, we're > working on some ideas that I think will probably improve its chances > of success.... things that were sorely overlooked in the days of OS/2. For example? I don't think any of the points above apply to linux... (But IBM now as an interest in Torvald's OS, so we better keep an eye on them.) Yours, Christophe *************************************************************** * Christophe Pythoud (Christophe.Pythoud@urbanet.ch) * 51, chemin du Peage * CH-1807 Blonay (Switzerland) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 18:14:53 1999 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 10:39:25 -0500 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Bill White Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 194 You also have to factor in the fact that OS/2 was quite difficult to use and flaky more than somewhat. My small experience with it was not completely positive. It was slightly more stable than Windows 3.11, which was the competitor at the time, but I had come from the SunOS world then, and I was shocked and amazed at the instability of both of them. I don't believe I ever crashed a SunOS box with an application. If you didn't crash either OS/2 and Windows 3.11 at least 10 times a day you weren't working hard enough. I must admit that I didn't do much with OS/2, but I did have to listen to my officemate's screams of agony when the debugger crashed. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 22:00:58 1999 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:06:08 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott D. Webster" To: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 195 On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Christophe Pythoud wrote: > David Berlind wrote: > > We're diving into the past to look at some of the reasons that OS/2 > > failed in the market. It was definitely a better OS than Windows. > > Just about everyone on this list could probably write a book on the > > issue. > > Well, don't look to far: the main reason for the faillure of OS/2 is... > IBM. IMNSHO everything that they could do wrong has been done wrong : > > - ludicrous advertisement campaigns (many people never understood what > that Warp thing meant) Don't for get the "OS/2 for Windows" product name. -- Huh? What? So this OS/2 thing is a Windows program? -- Clear as mud. -- Scott D. Webster swebster@carroll.com Etc Services Voice: 201.385.7113 Linux, UNIX, & TCP/IP Network Consulting Pager: 800.379.2402 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Thu Mar 4 22:01:19 1999 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:58:22 -0500 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Bill White Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [linux-biz] X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 196 I think this did not go out properly before. If you have seen it twice please excuse me. At 01:26 AM 3/4/99 GMT, Ed Weinberg wrote: ... Some other stuff deleted ... >He also points out the big problem that MS faces as far as linux is >concerned. MS CANNOT buy linux or put the company who created it out >of business! MS can't buy Linux, but that also means that there is nobody to sue MS for broadly promoting a damaged Linux distribution in order to discredit Linux in the market place. Let me give you a little historical example of what I have in mind. Bill Gates believes he is the late 1990's Thomas Edison. Many business writers believe he is the late 1990's John H. Patterson. John H. Patterson was the head guy at National Cash Register in the early part of this century, when cash registers were just getting started, and they were the zenith of business gizmos. Patterson was famous for what today we would call dirty tricks. One of them was the manufacture of knock offs of NCR's competitor's products. They looked just like the competitor's products, but were made with lower quality parts which would eventually wear and fail. NCR would sell these at a discount to a small number of merchants in a community, thereby taking some of the competitor's sales. But then, after a few weeks or months, when the faux-competitor's machine was likely to have failed, the NCR salesman would show up and sell the merchant a new NCR machine, with a substantial trade-in for the knock-off machine. The merchant's neighbors would all hear how crummy the competitor's machine was, and what a good deal NCR was offering, and the competitor would be out of luck. Patterson and Watson both went to jail for this and other similar tricks. Now, what does this have to do with Linux? Microsoft is rumored to have bid heavily for the linux.com domain name. I have heard speculation that they will release MS-Linux. Now, they won't make any money on MS-Linux, but what happens if MS-Linux is hard to install, and just doesn't work well. If they include some utilities which use libc and some which use glibc, it could create chaos in their system. Then, they would have people like Jesse Berst write columns to say that they installed Linux, it didn't work, and that's that. They could price it under RedHat or any other distribution, since they don't care if it makes money. Many people would prefer to buy MS-Linux rather then some company they don't know about at all. If it didn't work, the support staff would just say "That's the way Unix works -- it's old and clumsy, compared to Windows." Who would they believe? Just for the record, I spent a week in February among my wife's generally non-technical relatives in Texas. It was the only time I have spent around people who aren't engineers in a long time. They are mostly accountants. They all love Microsoft, and wish the DOJ would get off their backs. The are Texans, so they are inclined to hate government anyway, except, of course, for the oil depletion allowance, or other govt. subsidies to them personally. Microsoft and BG have a great pool of good will out there. I suspect it is true most everywhere. If MS-Linux comes to be, most of those people who might try Linux would try MS-Linux, be convinced that MS was the author and owner of Linux, and drop it when it became clear that it didn't work. Wishing I could find a job Linux Programming, Bill White bill.white@griggsinst.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 5 00:00:54 1999 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:29:20 -0500 From: George Rimel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-bls40 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 197 Christophe Pythoud wrote: > It really was painful to be an OS/2 fan at that time :-( (at least in > Europe, I don't know what it was like in the US). Worse, all OS/2 software was either mail-order, in the distribution, or download. Finding a distribution was a real test of commitment. Why do you think I started with linux? IBM decided to abandon the SOHOs so I abandoned them. Best choice I've made in a long time. George ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 5 00:00:59 1999 From: Con Zymaris To: bill.white@technologist.com (Bill White) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:57:04 +1100 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 198 > > MS can't buy Linux, but that also means that there is nobody to sue MS for > broadly promoting a damaged Linux distribution in order to discredit Linux > in the market place. Let me give you a little historical example of what > I have in mind. > unlikely to be succesfull; se below. > Bill Gates believes he is the late 1990's Thomas Edison. Many business > writers believe he is the late 1990's John H. Patterson. John H. Patterson > was the head guy at National Cash Register in the early part of this century, > when cash registers were just getting started, and they were the zenith of > business gizmos. Patterson was famous for what today we would call dirty > tricks. One of them was the manufacture of knock offs of NCR's competitor's > products. They looked just like the competitor's products, but were made > with > lower quality parts which would eventually wear and fail. NCR would sell > these > at a discount to a small number of merchants in a community, thereby > taking some of the competitor's sales. But then, after a few weeks or > months, > when the faux-competitor's machine was likely to have failed, the NCR > salesman would show up and sell the merchant a new NCR machine, with a > substantial > trade-in for the knock-off machine. The merchant's neighbors would all hear > how crummy the competitor's machine was, and what a good deal NCR was > offering, and the competitor would be out of luck. Patterson and Watson > both went to jail for this and other similar tricks. > > Now, what does this have to do with Linux? Microsoft is rumored to have > bid heavily for the linux.com domain name. I have heard speculation that > they will release MS-Linux. Now, they won't make any money on MS-Linux, but > what happens if MS-Linux is hard to install, and just doesn't work well. If > they include some utilities which use libc and some which use glibc, it could > create chaos in their system. Then, they would have people like Jesse Berst > write columns to say that they installed Linux, it didn't work, and that's > that. They could price it under RedHat or any other distribution, since they > don't care if it makes money. Many people would prefer to buy MS-Linux > rather then some company they don't know about at all. If it didn't work, > the support staff would just say "That's the way Unix works -- it's old and > clumsy, compared to Windows." Who would they believe? When Microsft tried to bring out a broken 'Internet' (initial MSN) few wanted in. Just because it came from Microsoft doesn't mean that the lemmings will naturally jump to it. The same can be said for MS-J++. While they were able to push a lot of copies into MS-only shops, and through possibly dubious bundling with their top-seller (VB & VC++) into MS-Visual Studio, products like Borland JBuilder, Symantec Visual Cafe and even the plain old JDK still hold their own, primarily because serious Java developers eschewed MS's attempt at a broken Java implementation, and people just didn't buy it. The same will happen with MS-Linux, should it come out. > > Just for the record, I spent a week in February among my wife's generally > non-technical relatives in Texas. It was the only time I have spent around > people who aren't engineers in a long time. They are mostly accountants. > They all love Microsoft, and wish the DOJ would get off their backs. The > are Texans, so they are inclined to hate government anyway, except, of > course, for the oil depletion allowance, or other govt. subsidies to > them personally. Microsoft and BG have a great pool of good will out there. I beg to differ. I can't seem to find anyone who is an IT professional who has much respect left for Mr. Gates or MS. > I suspect it is true most everywhere. If MS-Linux comes to be, most of those > people who might try Linux would try MS-Linux, be convinced that MS was > the author and owner of Linux, and drop it when it became clear that it > didn't work. Con _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Linux/Windows Systems Administration & Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 5 00:01:03 1999 From: edw@detel.com (Ed Weinberg) To: "Scott D. Webster" Cc: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 21:50:12 GMT X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 199 On Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:06:08 -0500 (EST), "Scott D. Webster" wrote: > > Don't for get the "OS/2 for Windows" product name. -- Huh? What? >So this OS/2 thing is a Windows program? -- Clear as mud. As I remember, OS/2 came as a windows add-on or not. If you already had a licensed version of windows you could get OS/2 for windows and not pay another Windows license fee. If you did not have windows you needed to also buy the license for Windows in order to run Windows programs in OS2. -- Ed Weinberg, Detel, Inc., An Internet Presence Provider edw@detel.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 5 06:00:54 1999 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:56:04 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 200 On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 03:18:49PM +0000, Christophe Pythoud wrote: > (But IBM now as an interest in Torvald's OS, so we better keep an eye on > them.) A scary thought -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 5 06:01:02 1999 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:02:11 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 201 On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 02:58:22PM -0500, Bill White wrote: > Just for the record, I spent a week in February among my wife's generally > non-technical relatives in Texas. It was the only time I have spent around > people who aren't engineers in a long time. They are mostly accountants. > They all love Microsoft, and wish the DOJ would get off their backs. The > are Texans, so they are inclined to hate government anyway, except, of > course, for the oil depletion allowance, or other govt. subsidies to > them personally. Microsoft and BG have a great pool of good will out there. > I suspect it is true most everywhere. If MS-Linux comes to be, most of those This is probably correct and, quite frankly, that's just fine -- let them load up MS with tech support requirements (the most expensive and hardest part of selling software) and let the serious 'early adopters' grow linux to the point where the MS lovers 'discover' this wonderful new option. == Works for me -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 5 06:01:07 1999 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 00:21:54 +0100 From: Fredric Fredricson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 202 Con Zymaris wrote: > > > > Just for the record, I spent a week in February among my wife's generally > > non-technical relatives in Texas. It was the only time I have spent around > > people who aren't engineers in a long time. They are mostly accountants. > > They all love Microsoft, and wish the DOJ would get off their backs. The > > are Texans, so they are inclined to hate government anyway, except, of > > course, for the oil depletion allowance, or other govt. subsidies to > > them personally. Microsoft and BG have a great pool of good will out there. > > I beg to differ. I can't seem to find anyone who is an IT professional who > has much respect left for Mr. Gates or MS. > I have talked to people (IT managers and the like) who says "Hey! what's wrong with a free web browser bundled with the OS. It must be good for the customers, since it is free". One guy used to be head of our IT department. I tried to tell him that he pays for it one way or the other anyway but he did not get it. Fortunately he has left the company to love MS somewhere else but my point is: This was an experienced guy and afaik he is still out there making procurement decisions for some IT department. Never underestimate stupidity. /Fredric ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 5 06:01:22 1999 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:45:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Scott D. Webster" To: Ed Weinberg cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Wanted: Rebuttal to Jesse Berst X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 203 On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Ed Weinberg wrote: > On Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:06:08 -0500 (EST), "Scott D. Webster" > wrote: > > > > > Don't for get the "OS/2 for Windows" product name. -- Huh? What? > >So this OS/2 thing is a Windows program? -- Clear as mud. > > As I remember, OS/2 came as a windows add-on or not. If you already > had a licensed version of windows you could get OS/2 for windows and > not pay another Windows license fee. If you did not have windows you > needed to also buy the license for Windows in order to run Windows > programs in OS2. Yes, I know what it was. In fact I still have it installed on an old 486 here. My point is that "OS/2 for Windows" sounds more like a program that runs under windows than a better OS that's capable of running windows on top of itself. -- Scott D. Webster swebster@carroll.com Etc Services Voice: 201.385.7113 Linux, UNIX, & TCP/IP Network Consulting Pager: 800.379.2402 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 5 06:01:34 1999 From: "Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond" To: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:37:04 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 Subject: [linux-biz] FW: GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 204 Forwarded without permission from EDUPAGE, 2 March 1999: >GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES >Supporters of the popular free operating system known as Linux (and >pronounced Linnux) have announced the development of a new user-friendly >graphical interface for that system. Called Gnome, the interface was >developed by a software effort led by the Mexican programmer Miquel de Icaza >of the Universidad National Autonoma de Mexico, and is distributed with a >word processor, spreadsheet, data base, presentation manager, Web browser, >and e-mail. Gnome stands for GNU Network Object Model Environment, and GNU >is an acronym that suggests that the software is "not Unix." Linux has been >gaining steady acceptance in the corporate world, and this new development >will give it more credibility in the desktop market now dominated by >Microsoft's Windows operating systems. De Icaza predicts that Gnome and >Linux will attract a strong international backing, and says that the Mexican >government is planning to distribute a million copies to schools. MIT's >Richard Stallman, founder of the "free software" movement of the 1970s, >says, ""Fifteen years ago they said this was impossible. They said this was >too large a task." (New York Times 4 Mar 99) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 5 06:01:57 1999 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:54:16 -0500 From: Brian Bartholomew To: linux-biz@lege.com Subject: [linux-biz] Microsoft Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 205 Linus holds the trademark on "Linux", correct? So if we donate enough money to Linus' legal defense fund, he can prevent MS from calling something "Linux". Microsoft can't buy Linux, but they can buy Red Hat and Caldera. League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Fri Mar 5 12:00:56 1999 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 02:05:33 -0600 (CST) From: wade To: Brian Bartholomew cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Microsoft Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 206 But I thought MS already owned redhat, judging by their releases as of late with the 100M of patches right after a release . . . On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > Linus holds the trademark on "Linux", correct? So if we donate enough > money to Linus' legal defense fund, he can prevent MS from calling > something "Linux". > > Microsoft can't buy Linux, but they can buy Red Hat and Caldera. > > > League for Programming Freedom (LPF) ftp://ftp.uu.net/doc/lpf/patents.text > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Brian Bartholomew - bb@wv.com - www.wv.com - Working Version, Cambridge, MA > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe > From popmail Fri Mar 5 18:02:28 1999 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:59:55 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Microsoft Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 207 On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 09:54:16PM -0500, Brian Bartholomew wrote: > Linus holds the trademark on "Linux", correct? So if we donate enough > money to Linus' legal defense fund, he can prevent MS from calling > something "Linux". > > Microsoft can't buy Linux, but they can buy Red Hat and Caldera. Possible but not too likely - Caldera is owned by Ray Norda (on of the founder of Novell) who is out to scuddle Bill (and yes, it is personal !) Most possible with Redhat, but also not to likely, if the funding partners they have signed on provide as much as I think they are. Remember that Steve Case (AOL) refused both MS and Paul Allen's money - and look who as the real network now -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 6 00:02:00 1999 To: linux-biz@lege.com Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:07:40 -0500 X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John C Cusick Subject: [linux-biz] Re: a pool of good will X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 208 On Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:57:04 +1100 (EST) Con Zymaris writes: >>Microsoft and BG have a great pool of good will out there. > >I beg to differ. I can't seem to find anyone who is an IT professional >who has much respect left for Mr. Gates or MS. > Unfortunately, IT professionals are an extrmely small percentage of business computer users and MS and BG DO have a great pool of good will out there. I was talking with a friend of mine, a dentist who has 4 or 5 employees and a small peer-to-peer network, win95, with 4 computers. He has a couple of high school aged boys who know computers and have talked about Linux and so have I, of course, and so he is aware of it. He is a very intelligent person but has a very difficult time relating to the whole open source/paid support concept. This conversation took place about 3 nights ago: He says "When they can support it, maybe it will be worth using, but until there is some accountable support available for the small business man, it'll never go anywhere." I say " Who are 'they' "? He says, "Don't be stupid, the linux people" I say " The linux OS has won all sorts of awards for 'best supported system'." He says " I can't call the Dental software people and get support, therefore it's not supported. And until the other 800,000 small business owners in this country see otherwise, it's not gonna happen." I say, "Until your Dental Software people write software that runs under the linux OS, why would they support linux? And if you were to call MS for support vs any of the main support channels for linux you would find answer for answer, dollar for dollar that linux support is more timely and accurate." He says, "I never call MS, I call the Dental software people. They answer all my MS questions." (Nothing is more enjoyable than comparing Apples to Oranges with some who is convinced he is comparing Apples to Apples) So he, and most of the other small business owners that are not IT professionals, do place a great deal more faith in MS than Linux. They may not be right, but this is their reality that proponents of linux have to face in order to do business with dentists, doctors, garage owners, restaurant owners, paint store owners, hardware store owners. beauty shops, kitchen wares shops, rug stores, book stores.... whew .... and on and on and on. I'm sure you get the point. The only reason I mention this conversation is because this is the Linux-Biz list, and I think that an awful lot of people on the list forget that there are many other daily business computer users that don't have a clue what the initials IT mean, and don't care. They are afraid of linux and want accountability. And MS has more good will than linux among an awful lot of non IT people. Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I DON'T like MS. The system crashed while I was writing this and so I had to write it twice. I have got better things to do than screw around with MS. JC ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 6 02:52:51 1999 From: Con Zymaris To: jcc2@juno.com (John C Cusick) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:17:24 +1100 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: a pool of good will X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 209 > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:57:04 +1100 (EST) Con Zymaris > writes: > > >>Microsoft and BG have a great pool of good will out there. > > > >I beg to differ. I can't seem to find anyone who is an IT professional > >who has much respect left for Mr. Gates or MS. > > > > Unfortunately, IT professionals are an extrmely small percentage > of business computer users and MS and BG DO have a great > pool of good will out there. I am surrounded by IT people, most of whom now see the industry's evolution towards open source software libre as inevitable, so I guess my glasses can get a bit rose-coloured at times ;-) Still, we also have contacts with a large number of small-medium enterprises, for whom Linux has either happened (they're using it happily) or have had their interest peaked. A few points for people to remember. Windows 1.0 was released in 1986. It took 6 years for there to be more Windows based users than DOS based users. Many people in small business still run DOS based legacy applications. While I know that Linux has been in existence for almost 8 years, for most non-IT professionals, it has only existed in their minds for perhaps 6 months. Thus, we _may_ have to give Linux another 5 years for to supplant Windows. I believe this is a seriously pessimistic timeframe; 3 years is more my guess. The same parallels can be drawn with the Internet. Nowdays, almost all business are using it, or are planning to use it. It did take several years from when the non-IT world discovered it (in 1993) to percolate through, but percolate it did. Linux ticks on Internet time. ... > > He says " I can't call the Dental software people and get support, > therefore it's not supported. And until the other 800,000 > small business owners in this country see otherwise, it's > not gonna happen." > Why the confusion about Windows (the OS) and the Dental Software (the App)? Any Windows App can just as easily be written for Linux. Dental software for Windows took almost 10 years to come out after Windows introduction. It may take 10 years (or much less) to come to Linux. > I say, "Until your Dental Software people write software that runs under > the linux OS, why would they support linux? And if you were to > call MS for support vs any of the main support channels for > linux > you would find answer for answer, dollar for dollar that linux > support > is more timely and accurate." > > He says, "I never call MS, I call the Dental software people. They answer > all my MS questions." > I can see his point. Once again though, these Dental software people had to learn-to-forget all their DOS knowledge, to be able to provide support for Windows; it didn't happen overnight. The same eventuall will happen with Linux, possibly sooner, because Corel will likely bring out a desktop-centric Linux distro which will look and smell lilke Win98, and run all Win98 apps that matter for these people. > (Nothing is more enjoyable than comparing Apples to Oranges with > some who is convinced he is comparing Apples to Apples) > > So he, and most of the other small business owners that are not IT > professionals, do place a great deal more faith in MS than Linux. > They may not be right, but this is their reality that proponents of > linux have to face in order to do business with dentists, doctors, > garage owners, restaurant owners, paint store owners, hardware > store owners. beauty shops, kitchen wares shops, rug stores, > book stores.... whew .... and on and on and on. I'm sure you get > the point. > > The only reason I mention this conversation is because this is > the Linux-Biz list, and I think that an awful lot of people on the > list forget that there are many other daily business computer > users that don't have a clue what the initials IT mean, and don't > care. They are afraid of linux and want accountability. And MS > has more good will than linux among an awful lot of non IT people. These are all very true and good points. Linux may never be able to reach into all those nooks and crannies that Windows has entrapped for itself. Why should this matter? The main question that should be asked is: "Has Linux created its own self-sustaining universe, divorced from the Windows/DOS realm? One that can happily continue on its merry way, interoperate where necessary but be independant; i.e has it reached critical mass?" I think the answer is a resounding 'Yes'! So what if in 5 years time 40% of all desktops still run Windows? The main issue here is that 15 months ago, we were looking down the barrell of a world were 95% of all computers would be running Windows in 5 years time. Linux and free software have burst this bubble, probably forever. > > > Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I DON'T like MS. The system > crashed while I was writing this and so I had to write it twice. I > have got better things to do than screw around with MS. And this, in the end, will be what brings people to Linux. One small business friend of mine who uses a Linux server but Windows95 workstations to run his accounting software (based on the DataFlex engine) sends me regular emails full of 'screaming frustration', when several times a day his Windows workstations lock up, requiring reboots, sometimes requiring kicking all users off the accounting system to perform database re-indexing. This is costing his firm real time/money, everyday. He has reached the point where he is pressing his accounting software firm to force the issue of rolling out Linux based Dataflex runtimes, so he can ditch all his Windows workstations, and leave behind crash headaches. Word about Linux is spreading faster than word about _any_ other OS, in the history of this industry. We should never lose sight of the fact that we have come so far, in such a short amount of time. We should not be impatient. It _will_ happen. con _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Linux/Windows Systems Administration & Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 6 06:01:06 1999 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:08:51 +0100 (MET) From: Leif Erlingsson To: Linux Business Discussion Group cc: Cynthia Deno X-URL: http://www.lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Open Source Software at the USENIX Annual Conference, June 6-11, 1999 (fwd) X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 210 Cynthia Deno asked me to post this announcement. And while I am at it, I attended EuroUSENIX in Stockholm, Sweden (my home town) a few weeks ago--and there was *A LOT* of talk about Linux there -- Linux is seen as Unix's Saviour.... (And I met Paul and Eric -- you know, Vixie and Allman... :-).) If I ever get some spare time I'll write something about that conference. ________________________________________________________________ Leif Erlingsson, Katrinebergsvagen 70, 146 50 Tullinge, Sweden TEL +46 8 778-5038, MOB +46 709 14-0631, URL http://www.lege.com """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Open Source Software at the USENIX Annual Conference, June 6-11, 1999 A renown conference by and for programmers, developers, and system administrators working in advanced systems and software-- Includes FREENIX Track devoted to open source software's latest developments and interesting applications. FREENIX offers Peer-refereed papers, expert talks, and evening sessions will be led by the likes of Linus Torvalds, Richard Stallman, Kirk McKusick, Theodore Ts'o, Theo de Raadt, and other leading developers. 1999 USENIX ANNUAL TECHNICAL CONFERENCE June 6-11, 1999 Monterey Convention Center & DoubleTree Hotel Monterey, California ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Save. Register by May 3, 1999. See the program at: http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix99 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Choose from 24 tutorials over three days. Eric Allman, Tom Christiansen, Peter Galvin, Evi Nemeth, and Marcus Ranum are just a few of the superb instructors. Training at a serious level. Technical Sessions-Cutting-Edge, Technically Excellent Refereed papers cover topics of especially high interest: management of resource systems, file systems, virtual memory systems, storage systems, security, web server performance and O/S performance. Stimulating, highly practical presentations await you in the Invited Talks track. John Ousterhout, creator of Tcl/Tk, will focus his keynote on a fundamental shift in software development to integration applications. Enjoy lively discussion during evening Birds-of-a-Feather sessions. Test drive useful products in the exhibit hall. Mingle at the dessert reception inside the wonderful Monterey Bay Aquarium. For nearly 25 years, USENIX Annual Technical Conferences have emphasized the exchange of practical solutions and the open airing of issues, unfettered by stodginess or commercial interest. Best of all, it's been a great place to meet with your peers and share fresh ideas, solutions, and a beer. ! Cynthia Deno, USENIX ASSOCIATION, Tel: 831 457 8649 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sat Mar 6 19:18:21 1999 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:24:03 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: a pool of good will X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 211 What you repeated of your discussion with your friend is right on the mark, but your understanding of it is missing a very important aspect of how some business software is sold. This is not 'small business software', this is vertical market software and it is typically sold by VAR's (value added resellers), who specialize in understanding the business needs of a specific type of business like your friend, the DENTIST. In this case for Linux to make inroads into those markets is for the Linux 'vendors' like Redhat to help create support channels for those kind of developers -- and in fact that is happening, at one time all the Unix vendors had ISV (independent software vendor) support organization - SCO used to have a very serious group of ISVs/VAR who sold vertical business software based on SCO Xenix and SCO Unix. I also know that Redhat is setting up exactly one of those ISV programs now. What this all comes down to it to suggest to your friend, or even drop a quick note to his dental sw vendor about the Redhat support programs. That is what will make the difference -- one what to think of it is that there really is an IT department for all those small businesses - the people who sell them their application package. ((In fact I think I'm going to cc this message to a few people at RedHat)) On Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 04:07:40PM -0500, John C Cusick wrote: > I was talking with a friend of mine, a dentist who has 4 or 5 > employees and a small peer-to-peer network, win95, with 4 > computers. He has a couple of high school aged boys who > know computers and have talked about Linux and so have I, > of course, and so he is aware of it. > > He is a very intelligent person but has a very difficult time relating > to the whole open source/paid support concept. > > This conversation took place about 3 nights ago: > > He says "When they can support it, maybe it will be worth > using, but until there is some accountable support > available for the small business man, it'll never > go anywhere." ... > He says " I can't call the Dental software people and get support, > therefore it's not supported. And until the other 800,000 > small business owners in this country see otherwise, it's > not gonna happen." ... > He says, "I never call MS, I call the Dental software people. They answer > all my MS questions." > So he, and most of the other small business owners that are not IT > professionals, do place a great deal more faith in MS than Linux. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Sun Mar 7 22:11:29 1999 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 15:09:40 -0500 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Rob Bellville Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [linux-biz] The Apple Model... sorta X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 212 One area that has been ignored is high schools. Schools are actually in the business of educating students (although some will beg to differ). Apple Computer targeted schools as one of their major markets in the hopes that students would carry the Apple flag with them out to the real world. Only problem was that Apple really didn't offer businesses enough and PCs got a foothold. I believe that this was one of Apple's biggest failures by not following through with their marketing plan. (Can't say I'm too sorry about that! ) I know firsthand that kids love Linux! I'm a Network Administrator for a small public school. We've got 5 Linux servers doing things from Internet services to file/print services. I always get asked why I use Linux instead of NT. By the time I'm finished, I'm usually loaning out my RedHat CDROM so that the student can put their old 486 at home back in service. Honestly, I haven't seen much of that CDROM lately! I strongly believe that by showing high school students the power of Linux you can create a whole army of future Linux aficionados that will push Linux into so many corners of the business world that we can only imagine. Linux is cool. Linux is free. What more could a kid want? I'm handing out muLinux (http://www4.pisoft.it/~andreoli/mulinux.html) floppies to interested students so that they don't need to dedicate a machine to Linux. (BTW, everyone ought to check muLinux out) Schools are always idea rich and budget poor. Donate a 486 or old Pentium preloaded with Linux to a local school. Offer to set it up as a server and remotely manage it once a month. Give your old Linux CDROMs to the school to give to the techie students. Set up an X Window terminal in the schools library for Internet access. Do you develop Linux software? Give schools free copies of it. Students that get their hands on it will no doubt be in a good position to recommend it to their bosses once they graduate. It'll also help your company's PR if you publicize it. (Email me if you're interested in doing this.) Just thought I'd toss out this idea to the masses. The students we convert to Linux today will someday be the business leaders of the future. It's a long-term process but imagine the user base that would be created. Rob Bellville Network Administrator Millbury Public Schools Millbury, MA Work Email: rob@millbury.k12.ma.us =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rob Bellville PO Box 515 rob@acol.com Millbury, MA 01527 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 8 12:01:19 1999 From: Con Zymaris To: rob@acol.com (Rob Bellville) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 16:14:53 +1100 (EST) Cc: linux-biz@lege.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: The Apple Model... sorta X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 213 Rob, > One area that has been ignored is high schools. Schools are actually in the > business of educating students (although some will beg to differ). Apple > Computer targeted schools as one of their major markets in the hopes that > students would carry the Apple flag with them out to the real world. Only > problem was that Apple really didn't offer businesses enough and PCs got a > foothold. I believe that this was one of Apple's biggest failures by not > following through with their marketing plan. (Can't say I'm too sorry about > that! ) > > I know firsthand that kids love Linux! I'm a Network Administrator for a > small public school. We've got 5 Linux servers doing things from Internet > services to file/print services. I always get asked why I use Linux instead > of NT. By the time I'm finished, I'm usually loaning out my RedHat CDROM so > that the student can put their old 486 at home back in service. Honestly, I > haven't seen much of that CDROM lately! > > I strongly believe that by showing high school students the power of Linux > you can create a whole army of future Linux aficionados that will push > Linux into so many corners of the business world that we can only imagine. > Linux is cool. Linux is free. What more could a kid want? I'm handing out > muLinux (http://www4.pisoft.it/~andreoli/mulinux.html) floppies to > interested students so that they don't need to dedicate a machine to Linux. > (BTW, everyone ought to check muLinux out) > > Schools are always idea rich and budget poor. Donate a 486 or old Pentium > preloaded with Linux to a local school. Offer to set it up as a server and > remotely manage it once a month. Give your old Linux CDROMs to the school > to give to the techie students. Set up an X Window terminal in the schools > library for Internet access. > great points you make here... We've done our best to help propell Linux into schools in our State here; we've set up some internet gateway's and mail servers and are hoping that we can persuade some schools to ditch Windows off their 486's to run stripped down Xterms to heavy-duty Linux app servers, and rely on Ctrix boxes for Windows apps. We also try and go further by pitching open source projects to all our local Universities, as a means by which their students can help propell some final year projects beyond the doledrums of going to waste when the student hands the results to lecturers. (A few ideas are at: http://www.cyber.com.au/misc/frsbiz/students.htm) ... > Rob Bellville > Network Administrator > Millbury Public Schools > Millbury, MA > Work Email: rob@millbury.k12.ma.us > con _____________________________________________________________________ Con Zymaris Cybersource Pty. Ltd. Unix/Linux/Windows Systems Administration & Rapid Application Development +61 3 9642 5997 Level 8, 140 Queen Street, Melbourne Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 8 20:01:05 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:03:47 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: rfi from Rich Roth cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Microsoft Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 214 On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, rfi from Rich Roth wrote: > > Microsoft can't buy Linux, but they can buy Red Hat and Caldera. > Possible but not too likely - Caldera is owned by Ray Norda (on of the > founder of Novell) who is out to scuddle Bill (and yes, it is personal !) True. > Most possible with Redhat, but also not to likely, if the funding > partners they have signed on provide as much as I think they are. Also true; however, I did hear rumours at LinuxWorld that suggest that Red Hat is setting themselves up to go public. More vulnerable to a takeover by a large company (not necessarily MS, but possibly) is a smaller effort such as SuSE or PacificHiTech, both desparate to establish a foothold in North America yet unable to do so. - Evan ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 8 20:02:02 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:29:47 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: John C Cusick cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: a pool of good will X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 215 > >>Microsoft and BG have a great pool of good will out there. > > > >I beg to differ. I can't seem to find anyone who is an IT professional > >who has much respect left for Mr. Gates or MS. > > > > Unfortunately, IT professionals are an extrmely small percentage > of business computer users and MS and BG DO have a great > pool of good will out there. Don't confuse goodwill with dependence. MS has the dependence of people because (right now) they don't have an alternative, and until now most computer vendors haven't offered any. Goodwill is brand loyalty, the willingness to stick with one brand even if others are shown to be competitive. I do not believe MS enjoys such loyalty amongst computer end-users. > He says "When they can support it, maybe it will be worth > using, but until there is some accountable support > available for the small business man, it'll never > go anywhere." This is true. But it's also true that most of the databases that cater to small business systems (Pick, Business Basic, etc.) were amongst the first to support Linux. The transition that will convince such vendors tosupport their dental-software-on-top-of-Pick-on-top-of-Linux will take time but it's already started. What many Linux people have yet to realize is that the end-user apps are more important to most end users than the OS underneath. When VARs and ISVs see the advantage in choosing/supporting Linux, we'll see some LARGE moves in this field. But it'll be slow to happen. > So he, and most of the other small business owners that are not IT > professionals, do place a great deal more faith in MS than Linux. Not the small business owners, the VARs and ISVs who write and support small-business software. Big difference. If the VAR says "we like Linux better and support it", end user allegiance could switch overnight. I've seen it work in reverse, from people who loved Unix until their ISV stopped supporting it. They didn't like the switch to NT but they switched nonetheless because of support issues. The VAR and ISV call the shots. Make no mistake. The loyalty that needs to be changed is within the VARs and ISVs, not the end-users. That's why Caldera targeted VARs from its first days of operation and has been reasonably successful at it. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Mon Mar 8 22:21:42 1999 Date: Mon, 08 Mar 1999 13:39:17 -0500 From: Darren Boyd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: a pool of good will X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 216 Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > >>Microsoft and BG have a great pool of good will out there. > > > > > >I beg to differ. I can't seem to find anyone who is an IT professional > > >who has much respect left for Mr. Gates or MS. > > > > > > > Unfortunately, IT professionals are an extrmely small percentage > > of business computer users and MS and BG DO have a great > > pool of good will out there. > > Don't confuse goodwill with dependence. > > MS has the dependence of people because (right now) they don't have an > alternative, and until now most computer vendors haven't offered any. > > Goodwill is brand loyalty, the willingness to stick with one brand even if > others are shown to be competitive. I do not believe MS enjoys such > loyalty amongst computer end-users. The best example of brand loyalty is Harley Davidson motorcyles. If a company can get their customer to tattoo the company logo on their chest, they have loyalty :-). Now, realistically, does anyone really think that people will put that flying window on their chest :-)! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 9 00:49:13 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:34:37 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Microsoft Linux X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 217 On Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 11:03:47AM -0500, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > Most possible with Redhat, but also not to likely, if the funding > > partners they have signed on provide as much as I think they are. > > Also true; however, I did hear rumours at LinuxWorld that suggest that Red > Hat is setting themselves up to go public. I'm sure they are - very sure > More vulnerable to a takeover by a large company (not necessarily MS, but > possibly) is a smaller effort such as SuSE or PacificHiTech, both > desparate to establish a foothold in North America yet unable to do so. SuSE as a stong europen presence, not so sure about PHT's position -- but why should MS buy anyone -- they can just release their own, if they want their MS-linux label -- otherwise they'd have to have Redhat to kill the momentum and there are too many major's funding Redhat to do that now -- if there was a chance they lost it -- but the fight is far from over. Just consider, for MS to really take advantage of Linux, they'd have to admit NT is a bust -- and they they'd look like they made IBM look with OS/2 -- it's not going to happen, so expect 'dirty tricks' or trying to ignore it (or both) -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 9 00:49:14 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:36:51 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: a pool of good will X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 218 On Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 01:39:17PM -0500, Darren Boyd wrote: > The best example of brand loyalty is Harley Davidson motorcyles. If a > company can get their customer to tattoo the company logo on their > chest, they have loyalty :-). Now, realistically, does anyone really > think that people will put that flying window on their chest :-)! So instead we have a penguin - not much better ?? We need 'Mighty Penguin' - -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 9 06:01:20 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:40:39 -0500 (EST) From: Jim Hebert To: rfi from Rich Roth cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: a pool of good will X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 219 On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, rfi from Rich Roth wrote: > So instead we have a penguin - not much better ?? We need 'Mighty Penguin' > - OK, I don't have a tatoo, but you haven't seen my house. =) Penguin motif? I'm working on it. =) jim (loser! *grin*) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 9 18:02:24 1999 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:17:42 -0500 (EST) From: Evan Leibovitch To: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond cc: linux-biz@lege.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [linux-biz] Re: FW: GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 220 > Forwarded without permission from EDUPAGE, 2 March 1999: > >GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES > >Supporters of the popular free operating system known as Linux (and > >pronounced Linnux) have announced the development of a new user-friendly > >graphical interface for that system. I was at the press conference. It was one of the most stupid and unintentionally funny events at LinuxWorld; I'm only sorry that it wasn't a public event, so the whole community could have been exposed to its buffoonery. Ask yourselves -- in the history of freeware, why has this package needed to do a press announcement? Why is the FSF more interesting in publicizing Gnome (which won't be a universal desktop as a number of distros have committeed to KDE) rather than glibc 2.1 (which will soon be undisputedly at the heart of every Linux system)? Why did principle Gnome developer Miguel de Icaza feel the need to spew some of the most inane comments I've ever heard coming out of the mouth of a freeware proponent/developer? Why did the people running the press conference think attendees would be impressed by Stallman's comedy relief? IMO, it's been downright amusing to watch the kneejerk and supremely amateurish "marketing" of Gnome. Red Hat has a *lot* riding on its commitment to Gnome and it shows. That they get any positive publicity for this stunt indicates an exploitation of the media ignorance about which we usually complain. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 9 18:02:55 1999 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:55:50 +1100 From: Damian A Ivereigh X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.34 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Evan Leibovitch CC: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond , linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: FW: GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 221 This is flame-bait, right? Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > Forwarded without permission from EDUPAGE, 2 March 1999: > > > >GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES > > >Supporters of the popular free operating system known as Linux (and > > >pronounced Linnux) have announced the development of a new user-friendly > > >graphical interface for that system. > > I was at the press conference. It was one of the most stupid and > unintentionally funny events at LinuxWorld; I'm only sorry that it wasn't > a public event, so the whole community could have been exposed to its > buffoonery. > > Ask yourselves -- in the history of freeware, why has this package needed > to do a press announcement? Why is the FSF more interesting in publicizing > Gnome (which won't be a universal desktop as a number of distros have > committeed to KDE) rather than glibc 2.1 (which will soon be undisputedly > at the heart of every Linux system)? > > Why did principle Gnome developer Miguel de Icaza feel the need to spew > some of the most inane comments I've ever heard coming out of the mouth of > a freeware proponent/developer? Why did the people running the press > conference think attendees would be impressed by Stallman's comedy relief? > > IMO, it's been downright amusing to watch the kneejerk and supremely > amateurish "marketing" of Gnome. Red Hat has a *lot* riding on its > commitment to Gnome and it shows. That they get any positive publicity for > this stunt indicates an exploitation of the media ignorance about which > we usually complain. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe -- ______________________________________________________________________ * Damian Ivereigh * || || * Cisco Systems, Inc. * * MIS Printer Admin * .||||. .||||. * Sydney, Australia * * Linux Bigot * ..:||||||:..:||||||:.. * +61 2 8448 7344 * * damian@cisco.com * cisco Systems, Inc. * Fax: +61 2 8448 7228 * *______________________________________________________________________* From popmail Tue Mar 9 18:03:09 1999 From: "Daniel Chalef" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:59:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Subject: [linux-biz] Linux Education Mailing list? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 222 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi all I'm writing a paper on the uses of OpenSource software in encouraging national development, with particular emphasis on education. Do any of you guys know of if a Linux-Education list exists and/or where I could find information on the use of Linux in Mexican schools? Thanks Daniel -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i iQA/AwUBNuUbRzNPNJB19y6jEQKeGACg5KKJ1CI9rFqYMqbbUOTcZdcIFOAAnivw 51ugTy8AQQYQajIJ080hZ9Cl =WqW6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 9 18:03:15 1999 To: linux-biz@lege.com From: Jonathan Corbet Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 08:15:47 -0700 Subject: [linux-biz] GNOME announcement X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 223 Just to give a counterpart to Evan's remarks from the mainstream press...: But for many who have criticized the Unix-like interface of Linux--an interface they say makes it unusable for non-programmers--perhaps the most important event of the week was the release of Gnome by the Free Software Foundation and Red Hat. Gnome was praised for making a Linux machine look and feel more like a Mac or a Windows desktop. Gnome (for GNU Network Object Model Environment) comes with a word processor, spreadsheet, database, Web browser, e-mail client, and presentation manager. (http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/news/19990308-linux.html) I wasn't at the press conference, and thus can not comment on the events there. But one can see what the GNOME and FSF folks are trying to do: they are trying to establish themselves as the true solution to one of the perceived problems of Linux - its lack of an all-encompassing user interface. They are coming from behind, so they are pushing extra hard. They are appealing to all those guys in suits (and I saw you in yours, Evan :-), not to the long-time Linux nerds. jon Jonathan Corbet, Eklektix, Inc. corbet@eklektix.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 9 18:03:24 1999 To: "Daniel Chalef" Cc: linux-biz@lege.com From: corbet@eklektix.com (Jonathan Corbet) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 08:25:03 -0700 Subject: [linux-biz] Re: Linux Education Mailing list? X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 224 > Do any of you guys know of if a Linux-Education list exists and/or > where I could find information on the use of Linux in Mexican schools? You might find some of what you want at: The "Linux in Schools Project" http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/k12linux/ ScholarNet (the Mexican project) http://www.linux.org.mx/arturo/scholar jon Jonathan Corbet, Eklektix, Inc. corbet@eklektix.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 9 18:03:32 1999 From: "Chris Tyler" Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:31:15 +0000 X-Face: *,j)>7_m)(4b*#BqizA=&l|1:3Hv?`;M@b(Vxd\)z\,ptx5nSoGeAqsNMczD,3HSQ0&j'K0rsz(S_?Q?Um.xU@T]*iuYzE0C![[A[03Su&`gX#AZ$EQOJ=naqi^auv&F[WDYVu@]A%Pv X-URL: http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 24feb96 Caldera) To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [linux-biz] Re: FW: GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 225 Yikes, Evan, it might have been a "stupid press conference" but your comments continue the tradition. You note that GNOME "won't be a universal desktop because a number of distros have committed to KDE". (?!) Caldera wisely committed to KDE because their Looking Glass was unpopular and proprietary. SuSE ships KDE, but then they ship one of everything (14 or so window managers?!). RedHat (the largest distro) and Debian (the freest distro) have been waiting for GNOME. I haven't followed PHT so I don't know what they're up to. So AFAICS _one_ of the top distros has "committed" to KDE. Some others have shipped KDE because it's good and it's available, but will likely ship both desktops. That's hardly a thundering condemnation of a package which some people have long been waiting for. It's obvious why the FSF would publicize GNOME over glibc-- it's a new package just hitting 1.0 (vs. an update of an existing package), many people have been looking forward to its release (whether to use it or flame it), and it's a whole lot sexier and spotlight-grabbing than a C language library. It's a shame that the FSF doesn't know how to do marketing (www.fsf.org proves that :-), and I'm surprized that RedHat/RHAD didn't provide some assistance there. I don't have a strong KDE or GNOME bias, and I've rolled my eyes over the desktop flame wars, but some of these comments are either not thought through or are plain flame bait. On Mar 9, 9:17am, Evan Leibovitch wrote: > Subject: [linux-biz] Re: FW: GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES > > Forwarded without permission from EDUPAGE, 2 March 1999: > > > >GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES > > >Supporters of the popular free operating system known as Linux (and > > >pronounced Linnux) have announced the development of a new user-friendly > > >graphical interface for that system. > > I was at the press conference. It was one of the most stupid and > unintentionally funny events at LinuxWorld; I'm only sorry that it wasn't > a public event, so the whole community could have been exposed to its > buffoonery. > > Ask yourselves -- in the history of freeware, why has this package needed > to do a press announcement? Why is the FSF more interesting in publicizing > Gnome (which won't be a universal desktop as a number of distros have > committeed to KDE) rather than glibc 2.1 (which will soon be undisputedly > at the heart of every Linux system)? > > Why did principle Gnome developer Miguel de Icaza feel the need to spew > some of the most inane comments I've ever heard coming out of the mouth of > a freeware proponent/developer? Why did the people running the press > conference think attendees would be impressed by Stallman's comedy relief? > > IMO, it's been downright amusing to watch the kneejerk and supremely > amateurish "marketing" of Gnome. Red Hat has a *lot* riding on its > commitment to Gnome and it shows. That they get any positive publicity for > this stunt indicates an exploitation of the media ignorance about which > we usually complain. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe >-- End of excerpt from Evan Leibovitch -- Chris Tyler Global Proximity Corporation http://Global.Proximity.ON.CA/ Internet and Computer Consulting (519) 469-3439 / fax (519) 469-8653 From popmail Tue Mar 9 18:03:39 1999 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:05:12 -0500 From: rfi from Rich Roth To: linux-biz@lege.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Subject: [linux-biz] Re: FW: GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 226 Actually I apprecated the insights -- the press on the announcement seemed very odd given KDE and all the other efforts. On Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 01:55:50AM +1100, Damian A Ivereigh wrote: > This is flame-bait, right? > > Evan Leibovitch wrote: > > > > > Forwarded without permission from EDUPAGE, 2 March 1999: > > > > > >GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES > > > >Supporters of the popular free operating system known as Linux (and > > > >pronounced Linnux) have announced the development of a new user-friendly > > > >graphical interface for that system. > > > > I was at the press conference. It was one of the most stupid and > > unintentionally funny events at LinuxWorld; I'm only sorry that it wasn't > > a public event, so the whole community could have been exposed to its > > buffoonery. -- Later ... Rich Roth --- On-the-Net Direct: Box 927, Northampton, MA 01061, Voice: 413-586-9668 Email: rich@on-the-net.com Url: http://www.on-the-net.com ~~~ www.i-depth.com lets you Add Instant Depth to your Website ~~~ ~~~ Adding depths to Web presences and Internet providers ~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Subject: unsubscribe From popmail Tue Mar 9 18:03:40 1999 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:21:15 -0500 From: Alexander Hutton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-biz@lege.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [linux-biz] Re: FW: GNOME DRESSES LINUX IN PRETTY CLOTHES X-Unsubscribe: send a blank message to linux-biz-off@lege.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 227 I haven't followed PHT so I don't know what > they're up to. PHT uses AfterStep because of the language support. AH ------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe: To: linux-biz-request@lege.com, Sub